Steel Road Frames?

Tonto said:

The Primato is one of my absolute favourite frames and you've done a fantastic job building it up.

Oh, melting chocolata & honey these words! I have loved the frame since years and so much so, that I even didn't follow my own advice to visit the next framebuilder. And I seriously doubt, he would have been able to bake together something as beautiful as the Neo Primato.

Nice you are with us too, Tonto! And comforting to learn, that we are obviously a well mix of all ages within the thread.

Normally I don't care much about race stars and all the fuss made around them. Two exceptions. Coppi and Roche. Especially Stephen Roche. Following all the rumours he must be an exceptionnel endearing specimen of his (irish) origin. And what a great sportsman as well! (By the way, we Germans have two great collective affections since beginning of mankind. We LOVE the Italians ... and the Irish. And I am absolutely no exception!)

And thank you so much for complimenting on my English. You must know, I am a professional writer and saying, my language was [censored] would be somewhat like killing me.

Vincent Kluwe said:

Now I will let you see my "updated" Battaglin - changed some details over the season! By the way Irish Stephen Roche, one of the most pleasant characters in the race circus of all times, won the Tour, the Giro and the World Championship on a Battaglin all in one year - only Eddy managed to make that hattrick before him!

I'm a Roche fan, too, and I love the Battaglin, but man, those chainstays are short. Does this one have a stay bridge behind the bottom bracket?

As long as we're showing off, here's a pic of my new baby, rescued from a street corner under a sign saying "Free." For now I've made it ridable using parts from here and there.

Someone TOSSED OUT a Masi Gran Criterium?!?!?!

That's insane. I have a pearl white Masi and it's absolutely top shelf, one of the two or three best frames I've ridden.

I also own a Battaglin. It was one of the 'aero' model that Gardin imported during the 1980's. After the aero fork's left blade collapsed below the crown, i replaced it with a Battaglin road fork with beefy blades and a stiff box crown. Even with somewhat flimsy aero seatstays the ride was noticeably improved.

Jesus,what lovely bikes you all own. Come on, Campybob, would you PLEASE show your Battaglin or I have to steal you a leg - you know what that means to a bike buff as we all are!!

And yes, Oldbobcat, my Battaglin IS short. But still a bridge between the chain stays! And still plenty of space between tire and bridge. But sorry, no space for a 25er - 23 mm is max.

And the Masi is great - I love minimalistic set ups and you did a great job restoring it. But if you consider, both Masi and Battaglin being crit racers, what a difference, isn't it?

Like one of the many remarkable Roche anecdotes? After one of the ultra hard TDF stages in '87 he lost conscious after arrival. And what did he say to his friend, waking up in his arms? "Ok, no girls tonight, mate!"

P.S. Just came home from my evening round with the Battaglin. How much I love the ride with it! It just rides great and I will definitely never give it away.

P.P.S. Eh, Tonto? By the way. Didn't you forget about something? Didn't you want to let us know, what happened to your Officina Girardi project?!? And - perhaps - let us lesser aficionados see a tiny little, little photo of it? POST A PHOTO!!!!

Vincent Kluwe said:

And the Masi is great - I love minimalistic set ups and you did a great job restoring it. But if you consider, both Masi and Battaglin being crit racers, what a difference, isn't it?

The decal says Gran Criterium, but trust me, it's more of a continental road racer, perhaps with adaptations for American racing. Its angles are quite conservative and the ride is comfortable, especially in comparison with my Gios from the same era.

The Masi is from 1980, built by Rob Roberson, so I think it's a bit older than your Battaglin. I added the C-Record crank because the NR that was on it was too short and didn't have an outer chain ring.

Roberson's build list says it should be a 58cm, but it's a 60, c-t.

Pardon my walk down memory lane...these are a few I've owned over the years. To my wife's chagrin, there are more.

In this pic, the Battaglin is the white 'Gardin' leaning against the Bottechia. Gardin bought Battaglins and decal-branded them as their own prior to hiring Georgio Ferrari to build frames in-house. That Battaglin was raced hundreds of times and was a mainstay training frame for two years.

oldbobcat said:

...it's more of a continental road racer. Its angles are quite conservative and the ride is comfortable.

That's what I thought, but then again I am not such a race professional to judge on first sight. If you compare the Battaglin - I would guess 75°? And chain stays well underneeth 410 - that IS pure crit, as I like it.

I hear you about the Masi's. This one is NIB Masi GC, grabbed because it was handy. I picked up this one from Torelli. The other one was gray market and built into a road racer...comfy all day long.

CAMPYBOB said:

In this pic, the Battaglin is the white 'Gardin' leaning against the Colnago Profile Cx. Gardin bought Battaglins and decal-branded them as their own prior to hiring Georgio Ferrari to build frames in-house.

I dig the Campy Delta calipers on the Colnago. Is it all true, what they said about Delta brakes?

CAMPYBOB said:

In this pic...

Oh Campy, Campy, Campy! What a a great artisan photo arrangement. What kind of studio lighting did you use and what size of camera? 4 x 5 or 8 x 10''?!?

Isn't it a pity, god has put a few oceans between us? I would love to have you around for a few lager now!

Your Masi just came in. Wow - that's something, you don't see every day! Look at the box crown! Gorgious! More and more I get the feeling I still owe myself a Cinelli Supercorsa Pista!

Another handy grab. It's silver twin is at the other house and was used for training in the late 1970's.

Somewhere around here is a pair of Cinelli bi-valent hubs i wanted to stick in the picture.

The posts are coming in faster than I can react. I just mentioned my wish for a Supercorsa and what does old Campybob? (Did you read my last post above your Supercorsa?)

And the fast pics you took in no time, are great as well - good lighting and well in focus. Compliments!

Did you ever ride the Corsa? It looks out-of-the-box!

If I get over to the other place this weekend...and if my old brain cells remember to drag the camera along...I've got more old iron ready to get out on the road someday.

Delta (and croce' d'aune) brakes both worked fine by me. Remember though, I race and only use them to slow down with...not stop! heheh! They weigh a ton. So do the old SGR Campy pedals I fell in love with. Built like tanks and only 10 grams lighter than one!

Let's see...in this one there's a red 1974 P-13-0 road racing Paramount I had made-to-measure...$660 delivered/w Campy tool kit. Middle bike is the Colnago CX...I have to go back and correct that first pos...that's a damn Bottechia behind the Battaglin...doh! On the right is an old De Rosa.

Ok...from left-to-right...

Blue/white panel job is a Pinarello Montello. I also own three Treviso's not shown, all have been totalled in crashes with cars.

The black one is a Raleigh Competition (lovely old Campy Gran Sport on that one) MK II from about 1976 or so.

The red roadie is another of my 'death bikes', a Treviso that I abused for 14 years of competition and training. The Treviso is just a fantastic 'does it all' frameset.

The track bike is a Gardin, one of two track bikes i ride in the winter. It was built for me by Georgio Ferrari. I used to import and sell the Gardin line. Don't tell anyone, but that one has a Dura-Ass track crankset. Remember, friends don't let friends ride shimaNO!!

On the right is the 2006 Litespeed i used last year. Rides like wet spaghetti.

This year's experiment.

Not steel, not a ride worth talking about, but it is stiff and is light. Riding hills all the time makes one appreciate the weight reduction achieved in the modern machines. Worlds apart from my 1972 Peugeot PY10 and my W.F. Holdsworthy.

I crack up every time I read what the 'scientists' post regarding weight, inertia, acceleration, time/energy saved. All those bicycles and miles have taught me differently. Yeah, rear triangles don't flex, they all ride the same, yada, yada, yada...

Regards,
Campy(the old fart that's been there, done that, got the t-shirt)bob

One of my old friends...

This one (and the black twin it replaced) were great training machines and flat road racers. The tubing is mainly just Cromor, a step above gas pipe), but built right and straight as an arrow. Georgio might have tossed in an SL downtube, but it was always a pretty dead ride.
I would like to know how many miles I piled up on this one. It'd been well abused and earned its' retirement. It has an investment cast BB by GPM, unusual in a low-end build. I sold the black one off to a friend and he campaigned it for several seasons with some successes.

Detail view of the unique BB shell Gardin used on this one.

Impressing collection, Campybob! I have never seen such a treasure under one roof. If I would own them, I would lose control totally. But you seem to know them all by their nicknames and every single one seems to have its own well detailed history. Stunning! Anyway I wonder how you manage to keep all your bikes that well with all the race history they have. They are looking mint like out-of-the-box. Compliments.

Unhappily my knowledge doesn't reach far enough to tell the difference between an "investment cast BB by GPM" and a standard one - I wished I could. Of course I know about the importance of the bottom bracket being stiff, but that's about all.

My Battaglin is water pipe as well as your red Gardin (oversized Cromor that is), but going strong as it does, I don't see any disadvantage.

But I found irritating what you told us about your experiences with materials like CF an Ti. Ok, I might not be even half as strong as you with your race tradition. But still. Litespeed Ti riding like wet spaghetti and even Seven Ti being too soft? Well, for me that would be a true killer after having spent 6k or more on a bike only to find out, that even my cheap Battaglin goes better.

Or your Douglas Matrix: "not steel, not a ride worth talking about" as you said. I mean that sounds like as if we lesser sheer recreational riders are well off with sticking to what we have. We are lucky to have someone with your experience around. With all your experience, backed up with these impressing photos, I would trust your reviews onethousand times more than any of these glossy mag reports, who are nothing more than [censored] spreading camouflaged ads.

I don't know, how you see it, mates, but I think last evening was one of the great moments within cycling forums, supporting us with the best such a forum could give. Thank you so much for that, Campy!

Anyway I wonder how you manage to keep all your bikes that well with all the race history they have.

Heheh! I should scan some old picture (pre-digital camera days) of me holding twisted and broken steel.

Like i said, I still have three Pinarello Treviso frames that are toast. All three were pranged in training...not racing. One hit a Buick that turned left in front of me. That one was a 1984 clone of Alexi Grewal's Olympic gold medal winner that I bought at Denver Spoke in late 1984. Another Treviso bought the farm when a Chevy Astro van backed out of a driveway in front of me...I was going down a hill at 25+ mph and managed to kick the bike sideways as I t-boned the van. I was unhurt, but the bike was junk. The third Treviso was hit from the rear by a Chevy Camaro that was going 45 mph. That totalled the bike and broke my back in two places.

The Treviso has been unlucky for me!

I also kept a collection of trashed wheels. In it are all the wheels that got demolished over the years. A Campy Strada rim in four pieces after a crash is pretty impressive! I've managed to break one Campy Record crank arm (left side alloy), but really, very little else. Despite the usual crashes and bashes, I've been lucky over the 35 seasons I've ridden and raced. I'm still walking on two legs and still able to throw a leg over so life's been good to me so far!

That Cromor Gardin, gas pipe that it is and dead as a two-by-four in ride characteristics, is stiffer than that Litespeed. It's also three pounds heavier as a guess. That weight is a real penalty to me on every climb and every acceleration so I prefer to lose the weight. I value stiffness. I don't like feeling a bike move around under me on a steep climb or while punching it.

The Douglas Matrix carbon is dead, but it handles nicely and again the weight reduction is marvelous. ANY rider whether racer, recreational or someone just out to stay fit will be faster on it, climb faster and with less energy and go farther on the same legs.

I'm glad you enjoyed the pics! I've got a busy weekend ahead and I hope to get in a 30-mile ride today before the weather starts closing in. Ohio is headed for winter fast.

Regards and safe cycling to you,
Campybob

There is one question left, Campybob. It's a question, which has moved me for quite a while even if it might be a bit naive.

You pointed out, you are riding Ti and CF for weight reasons to make you faster on your uphills. And I believe any word you say - you have a race back up of decades, so you are experienced enough to judge, how much faster a lighter bike makes you in the end. Always keep in mind, that we are talking about a difference of 1 or 1.5 kg over-all bike weight, which is not very much.

But as a race professional you are used to deal with fractions of a second and you might be trained enough not to carry a gram of overweight on your hips. You might well recognize a how small ever difference, when your race speed is measured with ultra precision instruments, throwing out the result with .001 of a second.

As a recreational rider I am more used to deal with hours, or minutes respectively, even being well trained and ultraslim. As I mentioned elsewhere in our thread, I have my difficulties not to lose too much weight mid season.

But let me compare with what I have. I have a water piped bike, weighing in with exactly 9.9 kg (Battaglin that is) and I have the De Rosa with 8.8 kg, which I might bring down to 8.5 or 8.6 kg with the new ordered wheelset and Tufo Elite CS 3 Lite tires.

I have used both bikes on one day and speaking frankly, I could not tell, if either bike made me a yota faster or not. Allright, the Primato is rolling more lightly than the Battaglin, which has much to do with the two gruppos: Battaglin is Ultegra all through, including wheelset, and the De Rosa is Dura Ace.

When I made a test between the two wheelsets, I noticed, that the Dura Aces would spin about twice as long as the Ultegras, once pushed with the same amount of energy (I proved that with an arrangement, which satisfies any scientific requirements). So if there is a remarkable difference at all, it comes down to the difference in quality of the two gruppos.

If I now imagine the lightest bike, I could sensibly ride, it would be a CF bike with not less than 7.5 kg (I need a c/c 60 cm frame). Ergo: we are talking about 1 kg. How much faster could that make me uphill? This is, what I would like to know. Could you, Campybob, or anybody else with enough experience comment on this, please? I mean, is the difference that big to justify investing in a ride, which is like "riding wet spaghetti" (sorry, but I love that phrase, Campy!!) or "not a ride worth talking about"?

Looking at all these beauties here in the thread with their strong character and charisma: behind every frame stands an expert frame builder with name and own personality and it's delighting to uncover the individual history of a frame, like you did with your Gardin branded Battaglin or the Masis, Campy and Oldbobcat! That is, what I meant by "great moment" within my last posting. Even if I am the only person in the forum to appreciate your kind of background stories, you both made me very, very happy with your contributions. Thank you for that, old Campy and Oldbobcat! If ever one of the contributors here in our thread comes to Berlin, I owe you a lager or two. And ask Tonto - he knows, Berlin is a place well worth seeing!

P.S. Well, with 17.256 hits our thread is one of the 3 busiest around here, so I might not be the only person who likes to read old men's stories - so just keep on going!!