flat bars vs drops (again)

Harald said:

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in your most
likely riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your
hands to shift.

I have to move my hands even to shift STI, but I can imagine that people with bigger hands can shift
without moving their hands. Anyway, it doesn't matter. As Jobst has pointed out, shifting is not a
super-fast time-critical function in bicycling. For my needs, I could do with dt shifters just fine,
but the STI brake hoods fit my palms better.

Quoted message said:

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Just because your handlebars are so low that hoods is all you can comfortably reach don't make the
assumption that everyone has the same setup.

Jan Lindström

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't

that

Quoted message said:

make sense?

Get something like this on your drop bar along with STI; have your cake and eat it too:

cambriabike.compauls cross brake levers.htmOpen ↗

Chris

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition there are
lots of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as hand positions.
Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in your most likely
riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to
shift. STI shifters are frighteningly expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

Summary; Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to the
cycling world

What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB shifter/brake lever combos. It's
hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road shifting, but I've done MTB (V-brake/RapidFire)
for as little as $15.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:44:04 GMT, "Harald" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal. Rapid-fire shifters are the
best things since sliced bread. Simple. Effective. Reliable.

Dual pivot road brakes are equally powerful and effective as V brakes. You can't put very wide tires
between them, fenders are out, and mud clearance is little.

If you fall down alot, outboard shifters like STI and Ergo would break often and your hands would
get smashed too.

Harald:

Quoted message said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

Flat bars; The flat bars are uncomfortable for longer rides - mine are straight and put my wrists
in an unnatural position. The bar-ends do help a lot but are not perfect.

Try a handlebar with a large swept angle, in the 12-16 degrees range. It makes a lot of difference.

Quoted message said:

Drop bars;

[.....]

Quoted message said:

But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting from the most ergonomic hand position.
Perhaps we need an entirely new handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on
the hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there.

I advocate the same thing, except that I'll rephrase the last part of your last sentence with "..
with easier braking operation". Shifting is already available from the hoods. It's the braking
that's awkward. I think the typical dropbar arrangement on most road bikes in Western countries have
not had a needed design change for ergonomic reasons because a lot of people have gotten used to it
with the view that it's a necessary rite of passage, perhaps in order to achieve the elevated "road
bicycle" user status.

Quoted message said:

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Of course. Come up with a design and patent it; be prepared to be shunned by the road racing crowd
though, if your design doesn't look "fast", isn't "aero", doesn't reduce weight, not made of
composite or exotic material, or if it offers too much comfort.

Harald said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions: You just
cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Well adjusted brakes of any design, on a bike of normal geometry and with a load of normal
weight (yes, yes, Chalo Cholina) can lock the rear wheel with the rear brake and lift it with
the front brake.

How can you have more braking than that?

Quoted message said:

The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in

Quoted message said:

your most likely riding positon (on the hoods).

Try raising the bars, and with correctly adjusted brakes. I ordinarily ride in the drops on the
flat and downhill, and while less braking is necessarily uphill, I can brake perfectly well from
the hoods.

Quoted message said:

Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift.

At least 2", with bar-ends. And another 2" back again. Scary stuff!

Quoted message said:

Summary; Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to the cycling
world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's another story).

Except that the development of low gearing was mostly driven by, er, touring bikes.

Quoted message said:

that much in several decades. The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and about time too!)

Who cares?

Quoted message said:

But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting from the most ergonomic hand position.
Perhaps we need an entirely new handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on
the hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there.

Have you looked at moustache bars?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84 said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition there are lots
of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as hand positions.
Wonderful.

_ Riding on the hoods is for resting and sitting up on the flats. For climbing on the hills.

Quoted message said:

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in your most likely riding
positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift. STI
shifters are frighteningly expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

_ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you. It's
pointless to discuss the merits of an ill-fitting system vs. one that fits. Of course, most road
bikes are set up these days to only fit the elite trained rider. Don't make a comparision until you
actually ride a bike that fits... Good luck finding one.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Harald said:

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Not really. The force angle of the pads against the rim is almost 45 degrees, while caliper brakes
hit the rims at nearly 90 degrees.

Quoted message said:

Rapid-fire shifters are the best things since sliced bread. Simple. Effective. Reliable.

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition there are
lots of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as hand positions.
Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in your most likely
riding positon (on the hoods).

You should be able to apply plenty of force from the hoods. Someone needs to show you how. By plenty
of force I mean you can apply enough force on the front brake to lift the rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift.

Well, there are other shifter-brake combinations. But it is not against the law to move your hands,
either. You should be able to do that with ease. With downtube shifters, you can (I usually did)
shift both front and rear with one hand.

Quoted message said:

STI shifters are frighteningly expensive, complicated and don't work as well as

rapid-fire.

If they don't work perfectly, it is an adjustment issue. Their design is quite good -- except that
they are not servicable.

Quoted message said:

Summary; Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to the cycling
world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's another story).

Actually, tourists had that years and years ago.

Quoted message said:

Now we need just a bit of that developmental energy put toward road bikes, which haven't really
changed that much in several decades.

OK, you haven't been riding road bikes for several decades, so would not know, but sheesh. Several
things: Road bike design is much more mature than mountain bike design, so would be expected to
change less radically. Shifters, in particular, have improved tremendously in the past 10 years.
Brakes have also improved. When I started racing, the standard brake was a centerpull. Poor design,
and usually worse execution. Prone to serious flex, hard to adjust, and provided the greatest force
when you least needed it. Sidepulls of the day not much better. Improvement since has been steady;
modern brakes are excellent.

Quoted message said:

The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and about time too!)

No it's not. It's a ploy to 1) encourage mountain bikers to buy a road bike, and 2) get away with
making frames in 3 sizes.

Quoted message said:

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Sure does. Road riders do that all the time. If you can't, it is not a reflection on the equipment;
you just need to be shown how to use it. Heck, I stopped from the hoods back when brakes sucked.
Watch some experienced road rider stop some time. Ask them how to do it before you decide that the
design that has been working fine for 50+ years is bad.

Change for the sake of change is not innovation, as we now see with frames with holes in the stays,
frames with inferior geometry marketed as "stiffer", and other nonsense.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | More people object to wearing fur than leather because it is _`\(,_ | safer to harrass rich
white women than motorcycle gangs. (_)/ (_) |

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars.

I ride both on a regular basis -- MTB for around town and off road, and road bike for longer
road rides.

Quoted message said:

Here are my impressions:

Flat bars; The flat bars are uncomfortable for longer rides - mine are straight and put my wrists
in an unnatural position. The bar-ends do help a lot but are not perfect.

I have no such problems with my wrists, etc. The lack of variety, and the less relaxed,"pushup"
position makes my shoulders tired and sore. For shorter rides, I find the MTB setup more natural and
comfortable, and more "in control" -- as do most people. But for longer rides, the drop bar, a
design that has evolved over 100 years, is a much better compromise.

Quoted message said:

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal. Rapid-fire shifters are the
best things since sliced bread. Simple. Effective. Reliable.

RF+ are indeed about as intuitive as it gets. They're quicker and smoother, no doubt. But STI/Ergo
are better with drop bars, and still plenty good enough. So yes, there's a difference, but it's
really splitting hairs.

Quoted message said:

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition there are
lots of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as hand positions.
Wonderful.

That's the whole idea. However, don't discount the drop position. It sure helps punch through that
aerodynamic wall, which I start to feel at around 20 MPH. At that point, I automatically start
reaching low.

Quoted message said:

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in your most likely
riding positon (on the hoods).

I disagree very strongly with this. While the bracing position isn't as good for the forces of a
hard stop, there's no trouble applying the brakes hard. Newer brake setups require very little
hand pressure.

Quoted message said:

Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift. STI shifters are
frighteningly expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

They don't work with as little effort as RF+, but they do work "as well."

Quoted message said:

Summary; Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to the cycling
world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's another story).

This is true. Add to that SPD-type pedal systems, idiot-proof shifting, better saddles, and
effective suspension (if that's desired). And lighter everything, because it matters on a mountain
bike. Perhaps the most important thing mountain bikes brought us was a cultural breakaway -- the
idea that it's OK to try something different.

Quoted message said:

Now we need just a bit of that developmental energy put toward road bikes, which haven't really
changed that much in several decades.

Road bikes have evolved steadily over 100 years. The way they are now is the result of 100 years of
refinement. Almost everything imagineable has been tried -- and rejected for one reason or another.

Quoted message said:

The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and about time too!)

It does make sense, in that it gives more standover height. This can be a problem, especially in the
smaller sizes. Other than that, it's just traditional fashion vs. modern fashion.

Quoted message said:

But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting from the most ergonomic hand position.

I think we have that. However, I do think STI/Ergo could be improved, or at least refined. The
shapes could be refined, and levers made more adjustable, to fit a wider range of hands and bars.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps we need an entirely new handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on
the hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there. Something simple and bullet-proof.

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Electric shifting is probably the best solution to this "problem." It goes against my human-power-
only sensibilities, but from a "problem" solving standpoint it makes sense.

Finally, I'd love to see SRAM selling STI/Ergo levers. Here's one of those famous opportunities to
make inroads against Shimano, that no one bothers to take advantage of. How about a universal
design, with a replaceable/adjustable shift detent to work with Shimano, Campy, or SRAM ESP
derailers? Modolo has an adjustable one, but it isn't very good.

Matt O.

Peter Cole said:

What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB shifter/brake lever combos. It's
hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road shifting,

Er, I picked up some rear-indexed DT shifters for 15 quid (c. $21) just the other day.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

This hard core roadie also noticed the less comfy flat bar ergonomics and, figuring that my wrists
like longitudinal hood type grip position, a 20 deg. sweep bar doubled my MTB endurance. I just
don't like barends. ESP and Julie really do work better than my beloved Campy...[censored], [censored],
[censored]. Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:BAEBb.299145$Dw6.996878@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

Drop bars;
The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In

addition

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are lots of other positions which allow you change body position
slightly as well as hand positions. Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any

force in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your most likely riding positon (on the hoods). Unless you have STI

type

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shifters you must move your hands to shift. STI shifters are

frighteningly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

expensive, complicated and don't work as well as rapid-fire.

Summary;
Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the cycling world

What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB

shifter/brake

Quoted message said:

lever combos. It's hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road
shifting, but I've done MTB (V-brake/RapidFire) for as little as $15.

David Damerell:

Quoted message said:

Harald said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions: You just
cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Well adjusted brakes of any design, on a bike of normal geometry and with a load of normal
weight (yes, yes, Chalo Cholina) can lock the rear wheel with the rear brake and lift it with
the front brake.

How can you have more braking than that?

The issue with dropbars is the awkward grip on the brake levers from the hoods. Locking up the
brakes is not the aim of most braking operations; modulation is more important. On prolonged
descents or on roads that require frequent slowdowns, the grip one has on brake levers from the
hoods can be much improved. For one thing, the strongest fingers are closest to the brake lever
pivot, which reduces leverage. For another, it can become uncomfortable to have the webbed bit
between your forefinger and thumb take up load when grasping the hoods; and for yet another a
significant part of the load taken up by your hands when braking is borne by the bit between your
forefinger and thumb, when it is more comfortable to have it taken up by your palm.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in

Quoted message said:

your most likely riding positon (on the hoods).

Try raising the bars, and with correctly adjusted brakes. I ordinarily ride in the drops on the
flat and downhill, and while less braking is necessarily uphill, I can brake perfectly well from
the hoods.

You've just gotten used to it; it says nothing for the awkward design which can be improved. Your
style of riding isn't typical; more people ride with hands on the hoods most of the time.

You're saying that you operate the brakes quite easily from the drops, and that's where your hands
are in the best position for maximum leverage with the brake levers. This is not so when your hands
are on the hoods.

Jan Lindström said:

As Jobst has pointed out, shifting is not a super-fast time-critical function in bicycling.

Except in sprints, where instant shifts can make the difference between win and lose.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

David Damerell said:

Harald said:

Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift.

At least 2", with bar-ends. And another 2" back again. Scary stuff!

And more like 6" if you're riding on the hoods! It's hard to consider it an inconvenience when it's
easy enough that you start shifting unconsciously after a couple of days.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that much in several decades. The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and about time too!)

Who cares?

I do. I don't want no stinkin' slanted top tube, I want as much space as possible in the triangle
for pump and water bottles. Although it would also be nice if I had enough room behind my seat tube
to put the pump there, a la Jobst.

I can't see *any* benefit to a slanted top tube on a road bike, unless you ride wearing a skirt, or
you're so inflexible you have trouble mounting.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Accordion, n.: A bagpipe with pleats.

<snip>Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to

Quoted message said:

the cycling world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's
another story).

Except that the development of low gearing was mostly driven by, er, touring bikes.<snip>

Take a look at touring bikes today and you will see that they all have mountain bike rear
derailleurs.

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harald:

Quoted message said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on
roads, so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

Flat bars; The flat bars are uncomfortable for longer rides - mine are straight and put my
wrists in an unnatural position. The bar-ends do help a lot but are not perfect.

Try a handlebar with a large swept angle, in the 12-16 degrees range. It makes a lot of
difference.

Quoted message said:

Drop bars;

[.....]

Quoted message said:

But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting from the most ergonomic hand
position. Perhaps we need an entirely new handlebar design. A completely new shape that
encompasses the "on the hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there.

I advocate the same thing, except that I'll rephrase the last part of your last sentence with "..
with easier braking operation". Shifting is already available from the hoods. It's the braking
that's awkward. I think the typical dropbar arrangement on most road bikes in Western countries
have not had a needed design change for ergonomic reasons because a lot of people have gotten used
to it with the view that it's a necessary rite of passage, perhaps in order to achieve the
elevated "road bicycle" user status.

Quoted message said:

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Of course. Come up with a design and patent it; be prepared to be shunned by the road racing crowd
though, if your design doesn't look "fast", isn't "aero", doesn't reduce weight, not made of
composite or exotic material, or if it offers too much comfort.

I disagree with your assertion that braking is awkward from the hoods. With my late model Ultegras,
it's actually easier from the hoods than the drops. Especially with an ergonomic bar, there's too
long a reach in the drops. There was recently another thread about this.

Matt O.

David; Thank you for your considered reply. I will insert my comments below, but they are just
comments for discussion. I appreciate hearing from experienced riders on this forum.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UoOdnSvq-P3k5kqiRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harald said:

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Not really. The force angle of the pads against the rim is almost 45 degrees, while caliper brakes
hit the rims at nearly 90 degrees.

I hope that you are not confusing v-brakes with cantilever brakes. Cantilever brakes are good, v-
brakes are better, with a horizontal cable pull. Both cantilevers and v-brakes have stronger dual
mounting points compared to a single mounting point for caliper brakes. Caliper brakes may be just
fine for riding in the countryside, but for dealing with traffic and touring with a load, I feel
more confident having v-brakes. If you have any doubt, try a bike with quality v-brakes. You will be
amazed at the stopping power and the light pull required. (I know, I know, racers use calipers at
high speed etc. etc. I am not saying that calipers are [censored], just that I think v-brakes are better
for many applications.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rapid-fire shifters are the best things since sliced bread. Simple. Effective. Reliable.

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In

addition

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are lots of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as hand
positions. Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any

force

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in your most likely riding positon (on the hoods).

You should be able to apply plenty of force from the hoods. Someone needs to show you how. By
plenty of force I mean you can apply enough force on the front brake to lift the rear wheel.

I take your point that some instruction may be necessary. My counter-point is that using brakes on
flat bars is intuitive and requires no instruction. I might also suggest that you may be used to the
situation, but if a newcomer finds it awkward, perhaps there is a better solution out there, if we
look for one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unless you have STI type shifters you must move your hands to shift.

Well, there are other shifter-brake combinations. But it is not against the law to move your
hands, either. You should be able to do that with ease. With downtube shifters, you can (I usually
did) shift both front and rear with one hand.

Quoted message said:

STI shifters are frighteningly expensive, complicated and don't work as well as

rapid-fire.

If they don't work perfectly, it is an adjustment issue. Their design is quite good -- except that
they are not servicable.

In talking with road riders(and reading newsgroups), I hear comments about frequent adjustments
required on STI shifters. I have never had to adjust my rapid-fire shifters.

Also I worry about the vulnerability of expensive STI's in the event of a crash. Bar-cons seem to be
more reliable, but they require moving your hands to shift.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Summary; Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the cycling world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's
another story).

Actually, tourists had that years and years ago.

Quoted message said:

Now we need just a bit of that developmental energy put toward road bikes, which haven't really
changed that much in several decades.

OK, you haven't been riding road bikes for several decades, so would not know, but sheesh. Several
things: Road bike design is much more mature than mountain bike design, so would be expected to
change less radically. Shifters, in particular, have improved tremendously in the past 10 years.
Brakes have also improved. When I started racing, the standard brake was a centerpull. Poor
design, and usually worse execution. Prone to serious flex, hard to adjust, and provided the
greatest force when you least needed it. Sidepulls of the day not much better. Improvement since
has been steady; modern brakes are excellent.

Quoted message said:

The move to slanting top tubes is nice (and about time too!)

No it's not. It's a ploy to 1) encourage mountain bikers to buy a road bike, and 2) get away with
making frames in 3 sizes.

Ever since I started riding as a kid, I worried about "cracking my nuts" on the crossbar. When I got
my first ten-speed I was so excited (coming from a one-speed), until I discovered that I still could
not ride up real hills. My mountain bike finally solved both those problems. The lower bar allows me
to move the bike around while riding, and allows me to step over the bar to get on the bike, if I
want. You don't need a dramatically lower top tube - an extra couple of inches of clearance is much
more practical than the traditional horizontal tube. The gearing on my MTB allows me to ride up
anything that I come across. If you look at new touring bikes today, you will see that they have
mountain bike rear derailleurs, and a tremendous gear range. I am not suggesting that broad range
touring gearing hasn't been available all along, but the average bike did not have it. Mountain
bikes are so popular because they provide an easy to use, practical product readily available to the
average rider. Easy to get on and off the bike, gearing for every situation, tires fat enough to
absorb bumps. Now that I am ready to advance to the higher efficiency of a touring bike, I still
want the kind of ergonomics that I am now used to. We should not be afraid of new innovations - As
an aside, I remember when computer mice were first introduced. Most geeks said that they were a nice
toy but no more than that. Nowadays it is hard to use a computer without a mouse. Some power users
may not use a mouse much, but most of us use them all the time. This despite the establishment's
insistence that it was not an improvement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar

positon

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that most people find most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Sure does. Road riders do that all the time. If you can't, it is not a reflection on the
equipment; you just need to be shown how to use it. Heck, I stopped from the hoods back when
brakes sucked. Watch some experienced road rider stop some time. Ask them how to do it before you
decide that the design that has been working fine for 50+ years is bad.

Change for the sake of change is not innovation, as we now see with frames with holes in the
stays, frames with inferior geometry marketed as "stiffer", and other nonsense.

I agree that change for the sake of change is not productive. But I also feel that ergonomics can be
improved, and that the technology to do it is available. I accept your suggestion that training and
experience would help become more proficient with the system currently in use. On the other hand,
sometimes it is the newcomer that can point out shortcomings in the status quo because he has
different expectations.

--
Happy riding;
Harald
(remove "blast" before replying)
Happy riding;
harald

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But what is really needed is positive braking and shifting from the most ergonomic hand position.
Perhaps we need an entirely new handlebar design. A completely new shape that encompasses the "on
the hoods" hand position with shifting and braking right there.

Have you looked at moustache bars?

No, but I've looked at a handlebar moustache.

In NW Chicagoland, there exists a customer of my first shop who looked for all the world like
George Michaels with a jaw-dropping handlebar moustache. It was as though he was from the "Cheers"
intto. No penny farthing, though--he stuck to a Centaur-equiped Bianchi. Behind his back, he was
our mascot.

"They say that, on a cool autumn night, you can still hear the Mikes Moustache Man riding his
Bianchi through the Cook Co. trail system..."

<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

_ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you.

Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference. With the profile height that dropbars have, you have
to choose which position you are going to be most comfortable with: hands on drops or hoods, and
adjust the height of the dropbars accordingly. Nothing to do with fit.