The Thread about Nothing....

[USER=113256]@classic1[/USER] I've just started watching Season 2 of the Netflix series - what is the AG2R DS meant to have done or failed to do?

paulambry said:

That wasn't the impression I got. He looked like he was trying a bit too hard after the race to make it seem like the stage went well for him. Besides, why would he waste a perfect opportunity to put some time into Jonas?

He looked fresh after the stage. It almost looked during the finale that he was just figuring out Jonas's watts. Pogi doesn't sprint like that. I've never seen him rev like he's stuck in the smallest gear going down hill.

classic1 said:

My takes from the Movistar documentary.

JJ Rojas is a cunning funt. The bit where he threatened to punch Dan Martin in the mouth and straighten his teeth was gold. Valverde is likeable. So is Carapaz.

Other than that the team is a [censored] rabble. The average team at the local council or a commonwealth department is more organised and aware of their role, goals and functions on a daily basis.

Well, Dan is a English wannabe Irish guy so there is a near automatic urge to slap him. Same with Ben Healy. Is the midlands of England so bad that Ireland seems better?

Even though he was on the juice, like pretty much everyone else, I always liked watching Valverde.

My final week prediction.

Jonas cracks. I think he spent all the matches in the box on that final climb to the point of almost wandering into the barriers. It's amazing what the lad has done after his lay down at the Basque Country and hats off that that effort but if he pushes one more stage like that I think we're seeing a small Jonas mushroom cloud in the Alps.

matagi said:

Is anybody going "hmmm" about Pogacar?

Does the Giro and wins, then gets Covid but bounces back and looks like he's got the TdF sewn up.

I don't believe in freakish physiology.

If you don't believe in freakish physiology then what about Jonas? Broken collarbone, ribs and a collapsed lung and other complications and he wipes a couple of minutes off Pantani's record and only a minute behind Pogi. I find that to be the big story. Dude beat Lance's best time by 6 minutes on that last hill.

Pogi's had Covid a few times - UAE were hit hard during the UAE Tour at the start of the pandemic. Apparently he's had it a few times. I had it three times and then again this May. First time in May 2020 was grim. Two weeks glued to any horizontal thing I could lay on. This May, sniffles, tested positive didn't even feel that bad. Work required that a test be done so I did it to humor them. But everyone is different I guess.

I've always had the attitude that the burden of proof of doping is on those doing the testing. In a perfect world it would be on the rider but I don't think we will ever get there. Pogi was in pink for 20 days in the Giro, that's 20 tests. 12 stages in yellow in the Tour, that's another 12 tests. I know Lance dodged that bullet for 7 Tours but the burden is still there...

swampy1970 said:

If you don't believe in freakish physiology then what about Jonas? Broken collarbone, ribs and a collapsed lung and other complications and he wipes a couple of minutes off Pantani's record and only a minute behind Pogi. I find that to be the big story. Dude beat Lance's best time by 6 minutes on that last hill.

When was this?

matagi said:

[USER=113256]@classic1[/USER] I've just started watching Season 2 of the Netflix series - what is the AG2R DS meant to have done or failed to do?

Besides fancing himself as a tactician, psychologist and great man manager, had AG2R riders work in the breakaway while Hndley (an overall contender) was in the break with them. Can't blame O'Connor for cracking at him when the [censored] tried to justify it later. It made no sense in any way, shape or form.

Having said that O'Connor looked like a challenge to manage but that dud wasn't anywhere near close to dealing with it.

classic1 said:

Saw lots of Dean Woods when he was a junior. Rode a state points score title I think in 1992 and he ripped everyone's legs off, went off the front for 20 laps and it was one big line chasing. Proud of that ride. Only 10 blokes out of a big field of 30 odd finished on the same lap, I was one of them but I digress.

I need to qualify this. Until late in the race when I chased a bit and tried to contest a couple of sprints I sucked wheels harder than a Kardashian sucks black [censored].

paulambry said:

I would like to think Remco is one of those freaks...up there with Lemond (VO2 max of 93) and Hinault (90 to 93, depending on who you quote). Or he started doping before puberty. His performances actually look credible to me.

Hinault claims 93 when he was fit.

[URL unfurl="true"]http://www.gitaneusa.com/Hinault.asp[/URL]

Guimard reckons Hinault was the biggest talent he worked with. http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8789/Slaying-the-Badger-book-extract-Guimard-on-Hinaults-brilliance.aspx

classic1 said:

Besides fancing himself as a tactician, psychologist and great man manager, had AG2R riders work in the breakaway while Hndley (an overall contender) was in the break with them. Can't blame O'Connor for cracking at him when the [censored] tried to justify it later. It made no sense in any way, shape or form.

Having said that O'Connor looked like a challenge to manage but that dud wasn't anywhere near close to dealing with it.

Yes, the Hindley thing had me scratching my head at the time and I know nothing of cycling race tactics.

Ben O'Connor is a management nightmare.

P

swampy1970 said:

My final week prediction.

Jonas cracks. I think he spent all the matches in the box on that final climb to the point of almost wandering into the barriers. It's amazing what the lad has done after his lay down at the Basque Country and hats off that that effort but if he pushes one more stage like that I think we're seeing a small Jonas mushroom cloud in the Alps.

This prediction is looking good Swampy

classic1 said:

Hinault claims 93 when he was fit.

[URL unfurl="true"]http://www.gitaneusa.com/Hinault.asp[/URL]

Guimard reckons Hinault was the biggest talent he worked with. http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8789/Slaying-the-Badger-book-extract-Guimard-on-Hinaults-brilliance.aspx

I got the 90 figure from this video article... a vid I stumbled on during the unspeakably dull stage after the first rest day.

What an amazing athlete. Rather prickly character, but I admire his extraordinary talent and obdurate competitive spirit, along with his intolerance for anything that would smack of "woke tosh".

Do you get the impression that riders back then were a lot more 'chunky'? Today's riders seem to look emaciated by comparison.

They were still lean. Lemond would get under 6% body fat at peak form. Riders now though get even leaner.

Can remember an article on Andrea Tafi. He got to 3.5% before the Lombardia he won, but said he’d always risk getting crook and falling off a cliff getting that low.

matagi said:

When was this?

3 months ago following his crash in the Tour of the Basque Country or whatever it's called now.

[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jonas-vingegaard-conscious-and-in-hospital-after-major-itzulia-basque-country-crash/[/URL]

He was in ICU for approx a week and then late April transferred by plane to a hospital of his choosing. Dude was in bad shape. I'm not a fan of his but glad his outcome is good.

classic1 said:

P

This prediction is looking good Swampy

It could depend on the weather. Stands to reason that Jonas who comes from a land of ice loves the hot weather and Pogi doesn't (sarcasm) but I've been wondering about the Remco wildcard. If he had persuaded Pogi to go with him on his attack the other day, Jonas would be third now.

matagi said:

Is anybody going "hmmm" about Pogacar?

Does the Giro and wins, then gets Covid but bounces back and looks like he's got the TdF sewn up.

I don't believe in freakish physiology.

I don't think that record is all about freakish physiology.

Pogi was sitting in the wheel of Jourgensen and Jonas and apparently pulling some of the best watts that he's done in the third week of the Tour just to stay in the wheel. Compare to Pantani in 98, he didn't launch his effort until a 1/3 or 1/2 way up the climb. The bottom half is steeper, so the time differences would be greater. A chunk of that time would be just from this.

Doping. 1998 was "The Festina Affair" year. Dopers [censored] their pants and their schedules probably were shot to [censored]. Pantani was likely one of those, given that when he broke his femur in 96 his hospital records showed a hematocrit level of 60.1%. The uber doped Pantani we all knew wasn't allowed to be the uber doped rider he wanted to be because the Tour slapped a 50% limit asap. I can't even imagine how much of a shock to the system that would have been.

Equipment. We fondly look back to kit of old and think it was the best and then some dude rides both under similar conditions and proves us wrong. It's easy to forget how much better modern bikes are. Would you think that a Lotus 110 superbike that Boardman rode to TdF Prologue yellow smashing Indurain by more than a dozen seconds would be slower than a modern road bike without tri-bars? That was a full on state of the art TT bike back when Pantani was riding. The stuff of legends.

I couldn't image a time where the bike that Boardman used for the "Ultimate hour record" in 96 (he used the road bike with two chainstays and not the single sided one that was ultra aero for the Barcelona Olympics in 92) would be slower with a rider on it that a "standard" road bike. Ok, this wasn't a "scientific test" but at a moderately controlled level the result were consistent over 4 rides by 2 different good riders.

The other part of the equipment is the wheels. Tubulars glued with the good ol' Mastik 1 had [censored] rolling resistance. [censored] ro;;omg resistance to even compared to clinchers of the day. Michelin were even saying that with their clinchers of the time. NuTrak won me over on that one - plus their rubber was gumball sticky and ace in corners. Rolling resistance wise, tubs where garbage compare to tubeless systems of today. Granted, if you glued your tubs on with shelac or other tack tyre glue, things would be closer but for standard road use it's the way it is. Two years ago I had a quick ride on a coworkers Pinarello Dogma with Evne SES 4.5 wheels on, just like Pogi is riding. He had Conti 5000 standard road race tyres on (Pogi was riding the TT tyres on that stage) and it felt like I was somehow powered by the bike. I'd been a big doubter of "super wide is better" but his 28C tyres were closer to 31mm and when I rode up the ramp out of our parking garage it was just a brain [censored]. It didn't make sense. For reference my "good bike" is the Dura Ace equivalent to what Nibali rode to Giro victory in 2010 and it felt utter [censored] compared to this. That said my Cracknfail is ungodly on the descents. It's like it reads my brain...

But the other factor is the weather. Was there a huge wind that blew in just the right direction. Was there low air pressure. Was riding a shorter stage a factor, stages are getting shorter...

I have 20% sceptic living in the back of my head and 80% until they get popped doping it's all good. Everything advances - the riders genetically, diet, training and resting and even doping. There will always be folks looks for an edge. It's the way of the world. Personally I would like to see stiffer penalties for those that are popped, base it on a ranking scale: rider failed test on the "Bumpenshitzen cobbled van ballenbreaker" neopro race gets banned for 4 years. ProTour rider dopes in a conquest for TdF glory - ban the whole [censored] team for life. Make the stakes that high.

paulambry said:

I got the 90 figure from this video article... a vid I stumbled on during the unspeakably dull stage after the first rest day.

What an amazing athlete. Rather prickly character, but I admire his extraordinary talent and obdurate competitive spirit, along with his intolerance for anything that would smack of "woke tosh".

Do you get the impression that riders back then were a lot more 'chunky'? Today's riders seem to look emaciated by comparison.

Hinault was ace. Shame that he went through the [censored] of riding through snow in Liege in 1980. A beyond epic ride that probably helped [censored] his career - even though it was good, but not as good, afterwards.

If you look at Jonas, yes. Too skinny. Pogi, no. He's looking "mr muscles" this year and before that he just looked like a skinny young early 20-something racer.

VdP doesn't looks overly skinny and smashes it on the one day races - he looks "about right."

Van Aert always looks slightly too tubby - probably because of the whiny [censored] he carries with him. I could go off on a rant about that selfish [censored] but I don't think he is deserving of my time right now.

Sometimes I think Roglic pushes the weight loss too hard and maybe that's why he always gets hurt when he crashes - then again I think his late coming to the bike racing game doesn't do him any favors in the bike handling department. Sometimes, watching him going down hills makes my ass pucker up more than the most violent of horror movies. I dig his tenacity but [censored], his descending leaves something to be desired but hats off for the effort. When your race history includes as many DNF's with broken shoulders or shoulders looking like raw steak as it does finishes, maybe you should reconsider your future.

My tactic for Vingegaard to beat Pogicar was not to crash in the Basque Tour 3 months ago.

You won't get this sort of insightful coverage on SBS [censored].

Cadel Evans is on. The boring weirdo nearly made me fall asleep. "Siri, show me someone with aspergers".

Speaking of crashes, has there ever been a previous period where so many top riders (Froome + Bernal + Evenepoel + Vinegaard) have had such serious crashes?

I think Mitch Docker said on the Cycling Podcast a former little bird at the UCI called Mick Rogers said stacks had increase by 50% since they brought in the 3km rule. No idea why.

There's a few ex pros out there speculating a number of neo pros are getting signed up based on Watt outputs without having the skills, and that the current trend for training over racing means riders are not as comfortable riding in a big bunch. They lose skills by not racing. Docker and McKenzie both say it about the new pros. Old school racing everything as kids.