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Lost at Night

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 January 2004
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16 January 2004
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C L Imber
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  1. To understand the following seqence of events open
    ordnancesurvey.co.ukgetamap in your web browser, click "Get-a-Map" and enter
    the grid reference SH649475.

    ====================

    I was on a Mountain Leader Training Course last week.

    On Tuesday we went out on expedition and an overnight camp in the Moelwyns.

    After setting camp at 5pm we had dinner and at 7pm off we went for a night navigation exercise.

    Our camp was at SH 6494 4752. Rain was heavy and visibility very poor as we were in the cloud.

    I was asked to navigate from the camp to the sheepfold at 6508 4758. I took the group to the head of
    the lake Lynn y Biswail (Lake of [censored]) and then paced on a bearing to where I thought the sheepfold
    should be. I then asked the group to remain at that spot while I paced a box search and found the
    sheepfold (and a f**king big crag) just twenty paces away - that's how bad the visibility was!

    Another group member was asked to navigate to the 572m spot height at 6476 4750. We probably
    got there.

    The third group member was asked to navigate from the spot height to Foel Boethwell 6508 4764 (!?)
    the exact summit of which is not clear on the map. There may be a ground survey spot at the GR
    given, but then again there might not be. Whatever, the summit of Foel Bothwell is not immediately
    apparant at night in poor visibility, and, it seems that the bearing we walked on was 10 degrees out
    so we may have been several metres to the east. Also, the party member navigating boxed 30 paces
    east to avoid a crag but never boxed those paces back. I suspect that a point that we thought was
    Foel Bothwell was the outcrop at 6516 4758.

    I was then asked to take us back to the 572 spot height at 6476 4750. I took a back bearing from
    what I assumed was the Summit of Foel Bothwell 6514 4774. The visibility was so poor that the only
    way to navigate was to send another group member ahead, ask them to move left or right so they'd be
    standing on the bearing and walk to them, then repeat the process. En route we heard a shout from
    our camp by the instructor's sister. Our instructor shouted back that we were OK - however, on
    reflection, the shout seemed to come from the wrong side of our supposed position.

    I wasn't able to find the 572 spot height, so the instructor asked me to pace onward and find the
    wall which runs northwest from the lake, just south of the spot height. I couldn't find the wall.

    We then backtracked to try to find the summit of Foel Bothwell again - and were still unable to find
    the summit. We were, perhaps, on the crags at the 631 spot height 6534 4736.

    Once again we tried to find the 572 spot height - our last known position, and once again we
    counldn't find it. So we tried once again to find the wall which runs west from the lake, and once
    again we couldn't find it.

    We were lost, the time was 10pm and we'd been out in the minging rain and mist for three hours. All
    of us, except the instructor, had left our packs at the camp. I had a double survival bag in my
    pocket, some snacks, a water bottle, spare batteries and an emergency LED torch. The two other
    trainees had similar equipment but no survival bag. The instructor was rather better equipped with a
    rope and survival bag but no group shelter.

    We tried to backtrack to Foel Bothwell, but it was hopeless. We were lost.

    I said to the instructor that we should assume we were in the region of Foel Bothwell and head due
    west so we would "fall into" one of two walls which form a V, meeting at 6454 4774, and depending on
    the direction of the wall we could follow the wall to 6454 4774 and confirm our position as the
    cross in the walls are clearly offset, not quite making an X. From there we could navigate back to
    the lake and our camp.

    The instructor said that she would be happier walking in a north westerly direction, so that if we
    missed the wall we would run into Llyn LLagi. I was happy with that plan.

    Off we went. We ran into a wall running in a NW direction, so we followed it. Then we came across a
    swolen stream. This was a surprise. No stream crosses the wall we guessed we were following.

    Where do streams come from? Springs or lakes. Where do they flow to? Other streams or rivers, lakes
    or the sea. Given the possibility of the stream dividing if we followed it up stream, and that we
    were probably not on the wall we thought we must be on, we decided to follow it downstream - we
    toyed with the idea of the stream being unmapped, and that it was a temporary one due to the heavy
    rain; we thought that unlikely as it was such a large stream. But we weren't about to jump to any
    conclusions until we had a definate fix on our position. The ground was rocky and broken. Going was
    tough. Passing a crag our instructor put her hand in some gorse. The message was passed back to me
    to be careful - I was at the rear the instructor in front. I was so careful not to put my hand into
    the gorse that I didn't pay attention to my footing. I lost my grip, slipped down the crag, regained
    my grip, then lost it again and ended up sitting up to my chest in the stream!

    It was cold, still raining, I was soaked, visibility was very poor, it was 1am and we were
    hopelessly lost. We'd been out for 6 hours. Yet, our moral was still high. Secretly I was loving the
    experience. I'm quite used to twelve hour-plus walks and knew that I could walk until daylight if
    necessary. I'm out for a weekend in the hills every fortnight and spend two full weeks per year in
    Scotland bagging Munros and Corbetts. Kerry, a fellow candidate has had less experience, but was
    very competent. She has her gold Duke of Edinburgh Award and was a member of her univerersity
    mountaineering club. Paul, Kerry's boyfriend was even less experienced but still very competent. The
    instructor, I felt, should look after herself, although I was still concerned about her. She
    couldn't hold a compass to the map, and relied on me to help her.

    Paul heard my expletive as I fell in the water, but I didn't tell the instructor that I had fallen
    in until much later. I was concerned about morale. I was initally very concerned about my tumble,
    but as soon as my body had heated the water on my trousers, under my over trousers, I felt warm
    enough and happy enough - and I was enjoying the whole experience.

    I haven't mentioned much about clothing, and now's as good a time as any - now that I'm cold and
    wet, to say what I was wearing.

    On the way to the start point in the minibus I was wearing cotton undersocks and cotton underpants,
    a Hagloffs tee shirt, a Berghaus zip neck sweater, Craghoppers trousers, thick acrilic walking socks
    and (fortunately) my Scarpa Manta walking boots as my other boots were still damp from the day
    before. In my pack I had my Sprayway Windbloc fleece, my Sprayway Gortex - reproofed 6 months ago
    after a soaking I received on High Street, new gaiters, over trousers, ski gloves and fleece gloves
    with leather grip and a fleece baseball type hat with fold down ears and neck. I also had a sealed
    freezer bag containing dry cloting: a Lowe Alpine t-shirt, Hagloffs pants, cotton socks and a
    Craghoppers zip neck sweater.

    In the morning, soon after we set off it started to rain and I took off my sweater and donned my
    Sprayway Gortex, gaiters and over trousers.

    We pitched our tents in the rain, and, inevitably, the insides got wet. My freezer pack of clothes
    remained sealed but I put on my Berghaus sweater and winter fleece, and changed my gloves - the
    others were soaking. We cooked in the rain. For the night navigation I remained similarly clad (base
    layer, two mid layers, and a shell layer). Our instructor was unwilling to take us out as the
    visibility was so poor, offering us a 5am navigation instead. That was Kerry and Paul's preferred
    option, but I said that they were just being lazy, and putting off the inevitable. And so I
    convinced our instructor to take us out.

    She said that we'd need our packs, but I didn't like the idea of taking my 95L pack out of my tent,
    getting it wet again, and putting it back in my tent after the walk so I protested. She insisted
    that one of us must have a survival bag so I said that I'd put it in my pocket. I also took my spare
    batteries and emergency LED head torch.

    As I didn't have my pack I was well clothed. A good base layer, a fleece sweater, a bindbloc
    fleece, and a recently re-proofed gortex, poor quality trousers, reasonable over trousers, gaiters
    and excellent boots; my pants and socks were cotton, but I wasn't over concerned about that - and
    besides, I like to keep my testicles cool!!! So even though I had fallen in a swollen mountain
    stream I was warm. I still cannot recall if I was wearing my gloves or not. I know that I wasn't
    wearing my fleece gloves with leather palms as they were hanging from the roof of my tent dripping
    onto my sleeping mat (my sleeping bag was still inside two freezer bags to keep it dry). I think
    that I'd decided not to wear my dry ski gloves as I wouldn't be able to handle a map a compass
    very well if I was wearing them. But I don't remeber my hands ever feeling cold - so maybe I was
    wearing them.

    We continued scrambling down the stream in the rain and mist, then, at about 01:30 we found an
    unmistakable feature. The stream flowed through a gap in a wall at 6404 4724. The feature was
    unmistakable because we'd passed it in daylight on our way up to the camp. All we had to do was
    follow the stream back up to "our" lake and find the campsite.

    By 3am I was tucked up in my sleeping bag and hearing the furious exchanges between our instructor
    and her sister, who'd remained at the camp the whole time. The night was not entirely comfortable -
    but it was certainly better than being stuck out in the open.

    The following morning we packed up and went for a post-mortem walk.

    The sheepfolds next to the f**king great crags were obvious. The 572 spot height was less clear. The
    summit of Foel Bothwell was not a distinct point, and on out thrid attempt the previous night we may
    well have been on the 631 spot height but we thought that we were on the crags to the north west of
    Foel Bothwell. The boundary running northwest from the Lake was a well defined wall. We thought it
    must have been removed! A minor stream that we crossed flowing northwest led straight into our lake,
    but we thought that it must be one that was a tributary to a larger stream that flowed into Llyn
    Llagi. After we found the wall running north west, and met the stream flowing west, had we gone up
    stream we'd have come to our lake.

    So, until the moment we decided to walk north west to meet a wall, we were never more than 100m from
    our lake. The problem was that we thought that we were to the north wast of our lake, but we were,
    in fact, to the south east.

    On Friday I had my course de-brief. The course director was full of praise about my night
    navigation, and said that the experience I had would stand me in good stead when I take the Mountain
    Leader assessment next October. He said that the fact that I was part of a group which got lost was
    an important experience, and that my input to recover the situation and my part in assisting the
    instructor to lead the party to safety was a valuable lesson. Being able to keep a clear head, and
    look for strategies to find an identifiable point from which to navigate is essential if I am to
    take groups of young people into the mountains of the British Isles.

    The Mountain Leadership assessment is about crisis management, and the ability to deal with
    potentially dangerous situations. We were taught to cross rivers safely, not because we should ever
    lead a party across a river, but because we may have to in an emergency. We were taught to tie a
    person to a rope and belay them down a crag, not because it's what we would expect to do, but what
    we might have to do in exceptional circumstances. We went on a night navigation exercise, not
    because we'd ever lead a group on a night walk, but because if the [censored] hit the fan and the fan
    didn't like it, that is what we might have to do. We were taught to make a stretcher from a survival
    bag and rocks, not because we should expect to have to do it, but because we might have to.

    I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    The next stage to to take a two day first aid course which covers hyperthermia; have 40 "quality
    mountain days" logged, including 8 nights camping - four of which must be wild camps - and then take
    the assessment next October.

  2. C L Imber said:

    On Tuesday we went out on expedition and an overnight camp in the Moelwyns.

    Been there, done that.

    Quoted message said:

    We tried to backtrack to Foel Bothwell, but it was hopeless. We were lost.

    Been there, done *that*

    Quoted message said:


    I said to the instructor that we should assume we were in the region of Foel Bothwell and head due
    west so we would "fall into" one of two walls which form a V, meeting at 6454 4774, and depending
    on the direction of the wall we could follow the wall to 6454 4774 and confirm our position as the
    cross in the walls are clearly offset, not quite making an X. From there we could navigate back to
    the lake and our camp.

    The instructor said that she would be happier walking in a north westerly direction, so that if we
    missed the wall we would run into Llyn LLagi. I was happy with that plan.

    Off we went. We ran into a wall running in a NW direction, so we followed it. Then we came across a
    swolen stream. This was a surprise. No stream crosses the wall we guessed we were following.

    So you should have tried to find one that did on your map?

    <snip most of the tale of errors>

    Quoted message said:

    The instructor, I felt, should look after herself, although I was still concerned about her. She
    couldn't hold a compass to the map, and relied on me to help her.

    Quoted message said:

    So, until the moment we decided to walk north west to meet a wall, we were never more than 100m
    from our lake. The problem was that we thought that we were to the north wast of our lake, but we
    were, in fact, to the south east.

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the rules" but they work,
    will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if even the instructor is lost surely it is
    OK to use one?

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as anybody
    not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Quoted message said:

    I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    That's OK then.

    Quoted message said:


    The next stage to to take a two day first aid course which covers hyperthermia;

    If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your instructor
    had a mild case.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  3. Quoted message said:

    Our camp was at SH 6494 4752. Rain was heavy and visibility very poor as we were in the cloud.

    If this was a training course then I question the judgement of even starting out with a group of
    novices in such conditions. You need to get experience in good conditions before you embark on more
    adventorous activities.

    Quoted message said:

    be. I then asked the group to remain at that spot while I paced a box search and found the
    sheepfold (and a f**king big crag) just twenty paces away - that's how bad the visibility was!

    Was the crag mapped? If so then it should have been noted before setting off. If not, then the
    instructor should have followed the route before taking you all out and noted the crag then.

    Quoted message said:

    Another group member was asked to navigate to the 572m spot height at 6476 4750. We probably
    got there.

    Spot heights are not features on the ground! You would have been far better off if the person had
    been asked to navigate to a proper feature.

    Quoted message said:

    The third group member was asked to navigate from the spot height to Foel Boethwell 6508 4764 (!?)
    the exact summit of which is not clear on the map.

    Arh! So the first person was asked to navigate to a spot height, and then, even if you were not
    absolutely clear of the spot height the next person was asked to navigate assuming that they were
    starting from the correct location. Very bad planning and leadership.

    Quoted message said:

    that the bearing we walked on was 10 degrees out so we may have been several metres to the east.
    Also, the party member navigating boxed 30 paces east to avoid a crag but never boxed those
    paces back.

    Never assume that your bearing is going to be spot on. It isn't, unless your navigating across a
    small distance. You could deliberately aim off on a specific side so that already know in advance
    which direction you are going off on. Also breakup the navigation into small steps and try to locate
    features behind or to the side of the destination so that you already know, before you reach those
    features, what's going to happen if you wonder off bearing.

    Quoted message said:

    I was then asked to take us back to the 572 spot height at 6476 4750. I took a back bearing from
    what I assumed was the Summit of Foel Bothwell 6514 4774.

    The excercise leader should already have recc'ed the trail beforehand so that they would have know
    that you were at the correct summit before sending you on the back bearing.

    Quoted message said:

    repeat the process. En route we heard a shout from our camp by the instructor's sister. Our
    instructor shouted back that we were OK -

    Did you have any means of visual signaling? Other than the LED torch. I know it was an excersise but
    you should have asertained by torchlight at this stage where the camp site was.

    Quoted message said:

    We were lost, the time was 10pm and we'd been out in the minging rain and mist for three hours.
    All of us, except the instructor, had left our packs at the camp. I had a double survival bag in
    my pocket, some snacks, a water bottle, spare batteries and an emergency LED torch. The two other
    trainees had similar equipment but no survival bag. The instructor was rather better equipped with
    a rope and survival bag but no group shelter.

    At this point you should have stopped where you were, found shelter, cuddled up, and waited for
    daylight. The instructor should also have made sure that you'd all come along fully equipped before
    setting out. The instructors collegue should have a copy of the groups route card, and an agreed
    time of getting back, and when you failed to return she should have raised the alarm.

    Quoted message said:

    front. I was so careful not to put my hand into the gorse that I didn't pay attention to my
    footing. I lost my grip, slipped down the crag, regained my grip, then lost it again and ended up
    sitting up to my chest in the stream!

    The group was lucky, however you'd all put yourselves in a very risky position. Continuing was
    just daft.

    Quoted message said:

    boyfriend was even less experienced but still very competent. The instructor, I felt, should look
    after herself, although I was still concerned about her. She couldn't hold a compass to the map,
    and relied on me to help her.

    Oh dear.

    Quoted message said:

    layer). Our instructor was unwilling to take us out as the visibility was so poor, offering us a
    5am navigation instead. That was Kerry and Paul's preferred option, but I said that they were just
    being lazy, and putting off the inevitable. And so I convinced our instructor to take us out.

    Sorry, this is just plain daft. The instructors first decision should have been final.

    Quoted message said:

    She said that we'd need our packs, but I didn't like the idea of taking my 95L pack out of my
    tent, getting it wet again, and putting it back in my tent after the walk so I protested. She
    insisted that one of us must have a survival bag so I said that I'd put it in my pocket. I also
    took my spare batteries and emergency LED head torch.

    She should have stuck to her opinion, and you and the group should have followed instructions! You
    should all have had a survival bag each.

    Quoted message said:

    The sheepfolds next to the f**king great crags were obvious. The 572 spot height was less clear.
    The summit of Foel Bothwell was not a distinct point, and on out thrid attempt the previous night
    we may well have been on the 631 spot height but we thought that we were on the crags to the north
    west of Foel Bothwell.

    The instructor should have recc'ed this before hand and found out for herself. Perhaps a better
    area/route would have been more suitable.

    Quoted message said:

    On Friday I had my course de-brief. The course director was full of praise about my night
    navigation, and said that the experience I had would stand me in good stead when I take the
    Mountain Leader assessment next October. He said that the fact that I was part of a group which
    got lost was an important experience, and that my input to recover the situation and my part in
    assisting the instructor to lead the party to safety was a valuable lesson. Being able to keep a
    clear head, and look for strategies to find an identifiable point from which to navigate is
    essential if I am to take groups of young people into the mountains of the British Isles.

    I hope you have learned how not to do things from the experience!

    Quoted message said:

    exceptional circumstances. We went on a night navigation exercise, not because we'd ever lead a
    group on a night walk, but because if the [censored] hit the fan and the fan didn't like it, that is
    what we might have to do.

    True, but you should go on more than one night navigation excercise, and the early ones should have
    been a lot easier than this. You should have been much more experienced before starting the one
    discribed, else you'd all have managed to navigate better and have all been better equipped.

    Quoted message said:

    I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    That's very good.

    Quoted message said:

    The next stage to to take a two day first aid course which covers hyperthermia;

    Surely the first aid course should have been done before the night navigation excercise? Who planned
    this course?

    Glad you enjoyed it though. I think may be I am a little bit too critical. If I am sorry, but I just
    wanted to point out the bits where I think errors were made and where better leadership and planning
    could have been made.

    For the record, I am a very experienced navigator, and have been involved with many night navigation
    excercises myself with novices. For the last night excercise I helped with, with a group of novices,
    the route was planned well in advance. The leader checked it out in the daylight beforehand, and we
    have in addition to the leader an experienced navigator/first aider in front, and myself, at the
    rear, with two others, both of whom are experienced with mountain walking (Himilaylas!) to act as
    left/right sweepers. The area I knew very well to begin with, but if I hadn't I would have done more
    preparation before hand. The group was 60 people, all of whom had the appropriete kit.

  4. In article <[email hidden]>, C L Imber
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as anybody
    not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Absolute [censored] - and to even write such nonsense makes you an ass.

    I've read your report and the reply from which you quote and ridicule. I've come to the conclusion
    you're a die-hard and die hards can die-easy!
    --
    Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.uk

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, C L Imber
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    he BMC and MTT are concerned that reliance on a GPS as a primary navigational tool will result in
    over reliance and detract people's sill in using a map and compass, which they consider to be more
    "rugged". They can see the benefits of a GPS as a navigational aid.

    Maybe they are not correct in their views - but I'm not qualified to contradict what they say.

    OK. So that is the basis on which you commenced your navigation exercise.

    You said you learned a lot - a steep learning curve etc. I'm sorry but I think you learned nothing!
    You were very lucky.

    You frequently refer to not knowing where you were or you thought you were somewhere (but were not).
    As this was an exercise wouldn't it have been prudent to use GPS as back up if only to provide a
    position in the emergency situation of being lost in dire circumstances, then you could start your
    navigation from a known position. You were simply compounding a gross error by continuing blindly so
    it seems. In any event if you had used a GPS tucked away in the top of your ruck sack, the recorded
    track would have been very useful for you to compare your meanderings with the track you should have
    navigated. Then you would have learned something.

    You are right in what you say, the "experts" such as National Park rangers (an others) who give
    lectures in navigation definitely frown upon the use of GPS. An example - one trainee ranger who
    had been on a nav. course positively cringed when I asked if she had used GPS. She said they were
    NOT allowed.

    For goodness sake, it IS a valuable aid and one which you would have done well to employ, not only
    to obtain a correct position but for the track record for future use in de-briefing sessions.

    So you see Phill was not as stupid as you make out.
    --
    Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.uk

  6. Phil Cook said:
    Quoted message said:

    Off we went. We ran into a wall running in a NW direction, so we followed it. Then we came across
    a swolen stream. This was a surprise. No stream crosses the wall we guessed we were following.

    So you should have tried to find one that did on your map?

    We found three possible ones in the vicinity. We had to find out which one we were on. There's no
    point in navigating from an unknown point.

    Quoted message said:

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the rules" but they work,
    will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if even the instructor is lost surely it is
    OK to use one?

    I had a GPS in my tent. I decided not to take it, and I am very glad that I didn't. It was a steep
    leaning curve to get lost then recover the situation. If I'd taken my GPS we would have been snuggly
    tucked up in our sleeping bags at least four hours earlier, but a very valuable lesson would have
    been lost.

    Quoted message said:

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as anybody
    not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Absolute [censored] - and to even write such nonsense makes you an ass.

    The teacher now languishing in gaol after a child in his care drowned in a Lake District Tarn was an
    incompetent nincompoop - he failed to take a rope. Ropes, maps and compasses are rugged instruments
    and rarely fail. GPSs frequently fail and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a
    situation without reliance on modern navigational aids. Why else do you suppose the teacher's union
    thought he got off lightly with only one year of incarceration. The ML course is designed to
    minimise the risk to children by being taken out by untrained mavericks, and if that means that the
    trainees have to be exposed to some risk, so be it.

    Or do you think that, for example, the river crossing exercise should be taught from the dry of a
    classroom and video rather than out in the water because the risk is too great?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    That's OK then.

    Quoted message said:


    The next stage to to take a two day first aid course which covers hyperthermia;

    If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your instructor
    had a mild case.

    Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.

  7. Quoted message said:

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the


    rules"

    Quoted message said:

    but they work, will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if


    even the

    Quoted message said:

    instructor is lost surely it is OK to use one?

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same


    litigious

    Quoted message said:

    minefield as anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto


    the

    Quoted message said:

    hills.

    I am in two minds about this argument. On the one hand, yes, a GPS is a very useful tool in this
    situation, but I don't think that individuals/groups etc. should be open to litigation for not
    taking one if other sensible and reasonable precautions have been put in place, such as route card
    with times etc. before hand, and the approprete planning done. I am yet to decide one way or the
    other if a GPS/mobile should be a 'mandatory' item of kit.

  8. circe said:
    Quoted message said:

    Our camp was at SH 6494 4752. Rain was heavy and visibility very poor as we were in the cloud.

    If this was a training course then I question the judgement of even starting out with a group of
    novices in such conditions. You need to get experience in good conditions before you embark on more
    adventorous activities.

    How long does it take to gain experience of night navigation if a planned exercise with a qualified
    instructor is called off each time the conditions are lousy. I can manage one week's training per
    year at most, and the courses don't come cheap.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    be. I then asked the group to remain at that spot while I paced a box search and found the
    sheepfold (and a f**king big crag) just twenty paces away - that's how bad the visibility was!

    Was the crag mapped? If so then it should have been noted before setting off. If not, then the
    instructor should have followed the route before taking you all out and noted the crag then.

    The crag was clearly mapped - look at the map. Please note that the crag posed no danger to our
    group (apart from the potential of walking into it) as it loomed above us not below us - hence my
    point about it demonstrating the poor visibility as we couldn't see it at 20 paces.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Another group member was asked to navigate to the 572m spot height at 6476 4750. We probably
    got there.

    Spot heights are not features on the ground! You would have been far better off if the person had
    been asked to navigate to a proper feature.

    Perhaps. However, distinct features are few and far between in that area.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The third group member was asked to navigate from the spot height to Foel Boethwell 6508 4764
    (!?) the exact summit of which is not clear on the map.

    Arh! So the first person was asked to navigate to a spot height, and then, even if you were not
    absolutely clear of the spot height the next person was asked to navigate assuming that they were
    starting from the correct location. Very bad planning and leadership.

    Perhaps.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that the bearing we walked on was 10 degrees out so we may have been several metres to the east.
    Also, the party member navigating boxed 30 paces east to avoid a crag but never boxed those
    paces back.

    Never assume that your bearing is going to be spot on. It isn't, unless your navigating across a
    small distance. You could deliberately aim off on a specific side so that already know in advance
    which direction you are going off on. Also breakup the navigation into small steps and try to
    locate features behind or to the side of the destination so that you already know, before you reach
    those features, what's going to happen if you wonder off bearing.

    I fail to see how the features could have been closer together.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was then asked to take us back to the 572 spot height at 6476 4750. I took a back bearing from
    what I assumed was the Summit of Foel Bothwell 6514 4774.

    The excercise leader should already have recc'ed the trail beforehand so that they would have know
    that you were at the correct summit before sending you on the back bearing.

    I feel that of all the people in this group I am the one most entitled to level criticism at our
    instructor. I do have criticisms, but I choose not to share them in an open forum.

    Mistakes were made, and valuable lessons learned by all. I am very pleased of the
    experiences I gained.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    repeat the process. En route we heard a shout from our camp by the instructor's sister. Our
    instructor shouted back that we were OK -

    Did you have any means of visual signaling? Other than the LED torch. I know it was an excersise
    but you should have asertained by torchlight at this stage where the camp site was.

    We all had good quality head torches. My LED torch was an emergency backup.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    We were lost, the time was 10pm and we'd been out in the minging rain and mist for three hours.
    All of us, except the instructor, had left our packs at the camp. I had a double survival bag in
    my pocket, some snacks, a water bottle, spare batteries and an emergency LED torch. The two other
    trainees had similar equipment but no survival bag. The instructor was rather better equipped
    with a rope and survival bag but no group shelter.

    At this point you should have stopped where you were, found shelter, cuddled up, and waited for
    daylight. The instructor should also have made sure that you'd all come along fully equipped before
    setting out. The instructors collegue should have a copy of the groups route card, and an agreed
    time of getting back, and when you failed to return she should have raised the alarm.

    NO! No! no! BIG MISTAKE! We'd had a good dinner, we had emergency food. Stopping and sitting in
    survival bags in some hollow would be more dangerous than keeping warm by moving. While we were
    moving there was no danger of getting cold, and there was every chance of finding the proper shelter
    of our tents and sleeping bags.

    We weren't supposed to be out for more than one or two hours, or further than 500m from our camp. A
    route card for such micro-navigation is not necessary. How was the instructors sister supposed to
    raise the alarm? There was no mobile phone coverage. Should she have strayed from the camp to see if
    she could get a signal? No. She was right to stay at the camp.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    front. I was so careful not to put my hand into the gorse that I didn't pay attention to my
    footing. I lost my grip, slipped down the crag, regained my grip, then lost it again and ended up
    sitting up to my chest in the stream!

    The group was lucky, however you'd all put yourselves in a very risky position. Continuing was
    just daft.

    Hmmm. Possibly.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    boyfriend was even less experienced but still very competent. The instructor, I felt, should look
    after herself, although I was still concerned about her. She couldn't hold a compass to the map,
    and relied on me to help her.

    Oh dear.

    Quoted message said:

    layer). Our instructor was unwilling to take us out as the visibility was so poor, offering us
    a 5am navigation instead. That was Kerry and Paul's preferred option, but I said that they
    were just being lazy, and putting off the inevitable. And so I convinced our instructor to
    take us out.

    Sorry, this is just plain daft. The instructors first decision should have been final.

    She hadn't made a decisions. She gave us two options - to go out then or at 5am. After convincing
    the others that going out at 7pm would be preferable to 5am I convinced the instructor to take us
    out at 7pm.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    She said that we'd need our packs, but I didn't like the idea of taking my 95L pack out of my
    tent, getting it wet again, and putting it back in my tent after the walk so I protested. She
    insisted that one of us must have a survival bag so I said that I'd put it in my pocket. I also
    took my spare batteries and emergency LED head torch.

    She should have stuck to her opinion, and you and the group should have followed instructions! You
    should all have had a survival bag each.

    I agree that we should have had our packs - but two survival bags between the four of us was fine.
    It's better for two people to snuggle into one survival bag that two different bags.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The sheepfolds next to the f**king great crags were obvious. The 572 spot height was less clear.
    The summit of Foel Bothwell was not a distinct point, and on out thrid attempt the previous night
    we may well have been on the 631 spot height but we thought that we were on the crags to the
    north west of Foel Bothwell.

    The instructor should have recc'ed this before hand and found out for herself. Perhaps a better
    area/route would have been more suitable.

    She had intended to take us to a better featured area, but the trek up the mountain was slower than
    anticipated, due to the poor visibility and foul weather, and we had to camp where we did because of
    the fading light.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Friday I had my course de-brief. The course director was full of praise about my night
    navigation, and said that the experience I had would stand me in good stead when I take the
    Mountain Leader assessment next October. He said that the fact that I was part of a group which
    got lost was an important experience, and that my input to recover the situation and my part in
    assisting the instructor to lead the party to safety was a valuable lesson. Being able to keep a
    clear head, and look for strategies to find an identifiable point from which to navigate is
    essential if I am to take groups of young people into the mountains of the British Isles.

    I hope you have learned how not to do things from the experience!

    Oh yes!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    exceptional circumstances. We went on a night navigation exercise, not because we'd ever lead a
    group on a night walk, but because if the [censored] hit the fan and the fan didn't like it, that is
    what we might have to do.

    True, but you should go on more than one night navigation excercise, and the early ones should have
    been a lot easier than this. You should have been much more experienced before starting the one
    discribed, else you'd all have managed to navigate better and have all been better equipped.

    I intend to go on several more night navigation exercises with friends over the coming year. I am
    right to do my first night nav with an instructor, and am glad that my whole ML training will not
    have to be delayed by a year.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    That's very good.

    Quoted message said:

    The next stage to to take a two day first aid course which covers hyperthermia;

    Surely the first aid course should have been done before the night navigation excercise? Who
    planned this course?

    Mountain Leader Training England (MLTE) and the BMC.

    I am not prepared to say who the course provider is.

    The syllabus is this:

    1. At least 20 quality mountain days.
    2. Registration with MLTE and join the BMC
    3. A six day Mountain Leader Training course.
    4. At least 40 quality mountain days, including 8 overnight camps at least 4 of which must be
    wild camps.
    5. Four day assessment.

    To become qualified, and to be covered by BMC insurance to take groups of young people into the
    mountain environment Mountain Leaders must have a valid first aid certificate which covers outdoor
    activities. The four day St John's Ambulance course does not cover hypothermia and is not valid.

    pyb.co.ukfirst aid.html

    The emergency course is sufficient.

    Quoted message said:

    Glad you enjoyed it though. I think may be I am a little bit too critical. If I am sorry, but I
    just wanted to point out the bits where I think errors were made and where better leadership and
    planning could have been made.

    For the record, I am a very experienced navigator, and have been involved with many night
    navigation excercises myself with novices. For the last night excercise I helped with, with a group
    of novices, the route was planned well in advance. The leader checked it out in the daylight
    beforehand, and we have in addition to the leader an experienced navigator/first aider in front,
    and myself, at the rear, with two others, both of whom are experienced with mountain walking
    (Himilaylas!) to act as left/right sweepers. The area I knew very well to begin with, but if I
    hadn't I would have done more preparation before hand. The group was 60 people, all of whom had the
    appropriete kit.

    The course director said that in good conditions night navigation is a doddle. The conditions we
    faced were as bad as any we might encounter in summer conditions i.e. any conditions at any time of
    year which does not include snow or ice.

    I think that you are wrong when you suggest that we should have given up and crawled into our
    survival bags. Our best chance of survival came from keeping warm by keeping moving and our morale
    high. Had we stopped we'd have got pretty cold, had an uncomfortable night, and our morale would
    have fallen.

    The fact that we recovered from the situation is a credit to our group and the leadership of our
    instructor.

    Mistakes were made - and with hindsight it is easy to see what they were. No one is above criticism,
    but I do not hold the instructor responsible for the sequence of events which led up to our
    situation.

  9. <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the


    rules"

    Quoted message said:

    but they work, will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if


    even the

    Quoted message said:

    instructor is lost surely it is OK to use one?

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same


    litigious

    Quoted message said:

    minefield as anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto


    the

    Quoted message said:

    hills.

    Bollocks:-(

  10. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
    instructor had a mild case.

    Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.


    Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
    chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated to
    by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  11. "C L Imber" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    GPSs frequently fail and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without
    reliance on modern navigational aids.

    I did some night navigation last month on open moor in misty conditions. I'd borrowed a GPS and
    found it made life pretty easy but I was constantly aware of not being overly reliant on it and
    constantly checked our position on the map and our bearing with a magnetic compass. Our path ran
    about a third of mile away from the shore of a big Loch so if we had real doubt about our position
    we could just head to the loch and locate ourselves that way.

    Jiffy

  12. C L Imber said:

    Phil Cook wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the rules" but they work,
    will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if even the instructor is lost surely it is
    OK to use one?

    I had a GPS in my tent. I decided not to take it, and I am very glad that I didn't.

    That makes no logical sense.

    Quoted message said:

    It was a steep leaning curve to get lost then recover the situation.

    Agreed.

    Quoted message said:

    If I'd taken my GPS we would have been snuggly tucked up in our sleeping bags at least four hours
    earlier,

    Why? You wouldn't have to look at it, just take it with you, for two very valuable reasons;

    1. As a backup, in case of a real emergency.
    2. To record a track of your walk, for later study.

    Quoted message said:

    but a very valuable lesson would have been lost.

    On the contrary, you lost a valuable lesson by *not* taking the GPS. If you'd taken it and recorded
    a track of your walk (no obligation to actually look at it during the exercise), you could have
    studied it later to see exactly where you went. As it is, you can only make suppositions about where
    you went, whereas a GPS track would have shown you *exactly* where you made your fundamental error.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as
    anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Absolute [censored] - and to even write such nonsense makes you an ass.

    I'm guessing that was largely a tongue-in-cheek statement from Phil, more a comment on the blame-
    obsessed society in which we live than a realistic assessment of the legal situation. But then
    again, you never know, many a true word is said in jest. If any serious consequences had occurred,
    the decision to avoid taking such a useful item, especially when you had one available, could be
    construed as recklessness.

    Quoted message said:

    Ropes, maps and compasses are rugged instruments and rarely fail.

    But what's the use of a working map and compass if you don't know where you are? How likely they are
    to fail is irrelevant. What's relevant is the skill and knowledge of the person using the equipment.
    If the skill of the person using the equipment fails, then what good is the equipment?

    Quoted message said:

    GPSs frequently fail

    Ah, the familiar words of the non-GPS user, or Luddite, or traditionalist, or <insert preferred
    variety of GPS hater>. Here we go again...

    It's strange how the unreliablity of GPS is so well known to the people that hardly ever use them,
    while the people who do use them operate under the naive assumption that they *are* reliable.

    How can this be?

    Well obviously people who never use GPS have considerable experience of it, so they know exactly how
    unreliable it is, while people who use GPS regularly have no experience of it at all, so they have
    no idea how reliable it is. ;-)

    So why do you think that GPSs frequently fail? Are you simply taking the word of umpteen other
    Luddites who have no real experience of using one? Or are you basing that flawed assumption on the
    experiences of Joe "thicky" Bloggs who hasn't got a clue how to set the correct datum, spends all
    his time wandering around dense forests in deep valleys and never bothers to bring any spare
    batteries with him?

    To anyone who understands the requirements of using a GPS, it is a very reliable device. In
    four years of regular use my GPS has hardly ever "failed" (depending of course on how you
    define failure).

    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids.

    Why?

    Is it because you have some primal urge to impress the Luddite traditionalists? Have you been taken
    in by traditionalist brainwashing? Why is it that so many technological advances are embraced by
    modern society, while GPS is frowned upon like some kind of witchcraft by "serious navigators"?

    Mobile phones, televisions, computers, the internet, etc. All wonderful things. But when you go out
    for a walk in the hills, taking a GPS with you suddenly turns you into some kind of leper. Why is
    modern technology acceptable in every other area of society, but to be despised when out walking?
    Why does everything need to be done "the old fashioned way"?

    And while we're on the subject, lightweight tents? Goretex? Modern wicking materials? Fancy LED
    headtorches? All modern technology. So if GPS is so bad, why aren't you walking around wearing waxed
    cotton jackets and hobnailed boots? And what about the batteries in your torches? If GPS is so
    unreliable because the batteries might run out, how can you possibly trust a torch? Surely you
    should be walking around with candles, or gas lamps?

    To return to your statement;

    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids.

    Would you therefore also agree that;

    "It's important to be able to get to work by horse and cart without reliance on modern petrol driven
    vehicles."

    After all, cars "frequently fail" so clearly it makes no sense to risk using one.

    To return to your statement once more;

    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids.

    I think that should be rephrased thus;

    "it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation"

    Who the hell cares how you do it?

    If you are in *a situation* then the only important thing is to get out of it, by any means
    possible. Whether you do so by using a map & compass, a GPS, a helicopter, an SAS extraction team,
    or navigating by the stars, it really doesn't matter! All that matters is that you get out of the
    situation without any casualties. If using a bit of modern "witchcraft" can help then what's wrong
    with that? Is it better that someone might die just so that you can proudly tell people afterwards;
    "but we didn't use a GPS!".

    Quoted message said:

    The ML course is designed to minimise the risk to children by being taken out by untrained
    mavericks, and if that means that the trainees have to be exposed to some risk, so be it.

    But if the objective is to minimise risk, then why would you make a conscious decision *not* to take
    a device that could minimise risk? Whoever "designed" that course seems to have a fundamental
    misunderstaning of the concept of risk minimisation if prohibiting carrying a GPS is a requirement
    of the course. Same goes for mobile phones.

    Quoted message said:

    Or do you think that, for example, the river crossing exercise should be taught from the dry of a
    classroom and video rather than out in the water because the risk is too great?

    I think that a GPS should be taken as a *backup*, and as a track recording device for later analysis
    of your actual route. I'm not suggesting that you actually *navigate* with it, merely that you take
    one with you in case you find yourself in an emergency situation where your traditional navigational
    skills fail.

    Which incidentally, they did!

    You admitted to being lost, so for all your talk about how wonderful it was to navigate by map and
    compass, the fact is that you actually *failed* to do so. You said;

    Quoted message said:

    There's no point in navigating from an unknown point.

    Exactly! So at that time your map and compass skills had failed you. A quick look at your GPS would
    have given you a known point. You could then have put it away and continued your navigation by
    traditional means. It was after all, just an exercise, wasn't it?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    Good. You got lost, you didn't have a GPS, no-one got hurt and you had great fun. But what if
    someone had got hurt? What if their life depended on you knowing where you were and getting a
    message out? A GPS and a mobile phone could have saved the day. How would you feel if someone had an
    accident and subsequently died because you were lost and couldn't reach help quickly enough? Would
    you still be glad you left the GPS in the tent?

    Okay, maybe I'm over-dramatising things, but all I'm saying is that taking a GPS as a backup
    wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't ruin your traditional nav if you didn't use it, but you'd have it
    available if you really, really needed it.

    Paul

  13. Fran said:

    [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
    instructor had a mild case.

    Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.


    Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
    chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated to
    by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

    I asked her the following day if she was cold. Her hands were cold, but her body was warm. To
    diagnose hypothermia on the basis of cold hands alone, and without direct experience of the
    situation is assish.

    I once went up Scarfell Pike and felt dizzy at the summit. One of my walking companions made an ass
    of himself by diagnosing altitude sickness. But that's not what it was. I'd forgotten my gloves so,
    to keep my hands warm, I kept them up my sleeves. Every now and then I blew up my sleeves to warm my
    hands. When we stopped for lunch I repeatedly blew up my sleeves. It wasn't altitude sickness I was
    suffering from - it was hyperventilation! I had made an ass out of myself too!!! But at least I was
    able to rationalise what was wrong instead of leaping to the wrong conclusion.

    Stopping and jumping into a survival bag would have made the situation worse not better. We would
    have had to have given up all hope of recovering the situation to do that - and that is when group
    morale would have severely fallen. The option was raised by me, and we all knew it was an option we
    could fall back on. Once inside survival bags there would be no other last resort.

    Being well fed and warm (hands excepted) we were in pretty good shape. We could have walked until
    dawn - only four hours away by the time we got back to camp.

  14. W. D. Grey said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, C L Imber
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as
    anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Absolute [censored] - and to even write such nonsense makes you an ass.

    I've read your report and the reply from which you quote and ridicule. I've come to the conclusion
    you're a die-hard and die hards can die-easy!

    The Mountain Training Trust (MTT) recommend the following equipment for walking in the British
    mountains in summer conditions:

    Personal kit
    - rucksack
    - emergency bivouac bag
    - waterproof jacket
    - over trousers
    - map
    - compass
    - torch plus spare battery plus spare bulb
    - walking boots
    - drink
    - lunch
    - whistle
    - hat
    - gloves
    - spare gloves
    - spare fleece or similar warm layer
    - spare food
    - personal first aid
    - sanitary supplies

    Extra equipment for the group leader
    - first aid kit
    - group shelter
    - spare map (1:50,000)
    - spare compass
    - spare fleece or similar warm layer
    - penknife
    - spare hat
    - spare gloves
    - spare socks
    - spare food
    - warm drink or food
    - rope
    - small repair kit

    Not even a whiff of a GPS or mobile phone.

    The BMC and MTT are concerned that reliance on a GPS as a primary navigational tool will result in
    over reliance and detract people's sill in using a map and compass, which they consider to be more
    "rugged". They can see the benefits of a GPS as a navigational aid.

    Maybe they are not correct in their views - but I'm not qualified to contradict what they say.

  15. Paul Saunders said:
    C L Imber said:

    Phil Cook wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the rules" but they work,
    will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if even the instructor is lost surely it is
    OK to use one?

    I had a GPS in my tent. I decided not to take it, and I am very glad that I didn't.

    That makes no logical sense.

    I'm glad that I didn't take it because of the satisfaction of extracting ourselves without
    reliance on a GPS.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It was a steep leaning curve to get lost then recover the situation.

    Agreed.

    Quoted message said:

    If I'd taken my GPS we would have been snuggly tucked up in our sleeping bags at least four hours
    earlier,

    Why? You wouldn't have to look at it, just take it with you, for two very valuable reasons;

    1. As a backup, in case of a real emergency.
    2. To record a track of your walk, for later study.

    OK. But had I had it with me it would have come out of my pack as soon as we decided we were lost.

    As for point #2, it's a great shame we don't know exactly what went wrong - and that would have been
    a real benefit.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    but a very valuable lesson would have been lost.

    On the contrary, you lost a valuable lesson by *not* taking the GPS. If you'd taken it and
    recorded a track of your walk (no obligation to actually look at it during the exercise), you
    could have studied it later to see exactly where you went. As it is, you can only make
    suppositions about where you went, whereas a GPS track would have shown you *exactly* where you
    made your fundamental error.

    In that case, it should have been the instructor, not me, who should have taken the GPS.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as
    anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Absolute [censored] - and to even write such nonsense makes you an ass.

    I'm guessing that was largely a tongue-in-cheek statement from Phil, more a comment on the blame-
    obsessed society in which we live than a realistic assessment of the legal situation. But then
    again, you never know, many a true word is said in jest. If any serious consequences had occurred,
    the decision to avoid taking such a useful item, especially when you had one available, could be
    construed as recklessness.

    But there were no serious consequences.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ropes, maps and compasses are rugged instruments and rarely fail.

    But what's the use of a working map and compass if you don't know where you are? How likely they
    are to fail is irrelevant. What's relevant is the skill and knowledge of the person using the
    equipment. If the skill of the person using the equipment fails, then what good is the equipment?

    We were able to use the map and compass to extract ourselves from the situation. That was their use.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    GPSs frequently fail

    Ah, the familiar words of the non-GPS user, or Luddite, or traditionalist, or <insert preferred
    variety of GPS hater>. Here we go again...

    It's strange how the unreliablity of GPS is so well known to the people that hardly ever use them,
    while the people who do use them operate under the naive assumption that they *are* reliable.

    How can this be?

    Well obviously people who never use GPS have considerable experience of it, so they know exactly
    how unreliable it is, while people who use GPS regularly have no experience of it at all, so they
    have no idea how reliable it is. ;-)

    So why do you think that GPSs frequently fail? Are you simply taking the word of umpteen other
    Luddites who have no real experience of using one? Or are you basing that flawed assumption on the
    experiences of Joe "thicky" Bloggs who hasn't got a clue how to set the correct datum, spends all
    his time wandering around dense forests in deep valleys and never bothers to bring any spare
    batteries with him?

    To anyone who understands the requirements of using a GPS, it is a very reliable device. In four
    years of regular use my GPS has hardly ever "failed" (depending of course on how you define
    failure).

    Now you make an ass out of yourself.

    I *am* a GPS user. I use it frequently and have done so for over 18 months

    I also know the times it has failed.

    When I forgot to turn it off and the batteries expired. During a cycle ride up the Wye Valley. In a
    deep gully in the Pyrenees. In woodland below Moel Hebog.

    Also, it's pretty much useless without a map.

    Other times when a GPS might fail are after its been dropped, after the owner has fallen or in case
    of war and the signal is scrambled.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids.

    Why?

    Is it because you have some primal urge to impress the Luddite traditionalists? Have you been taken
    in by traditionalist brainwashing? Why is it that so many technological advances are embraced by
    modern society, while GPS is frowned upon like some kind of witchcraft by "serious navigators"?

    Mobile phones, televisions, computers, the internet, etc. All wonderful things. But when you go out
    for a walk in the hills, taking a GPS with you suddenly turns you into some kind of leper. Why is
    modern technology acceptable in every other area of society, but to be despised when out walking?
    Why does everything need to be done "the old fashioned way"?

    And while we're on the subject, lightweight tents? Goretex? Modern wicking materials? Fancy LED
    headtorches? All modern technology. So if GPS is so bad, why aren't you walking around wearing
    waxed cotton jackets and hobnailed boots? And what about the batteries in your torches? If GPS is
    so unreliable because the batteries might run out, how can you possibly trust a torch? Surely you
    should be walking around with candles, or gas lamps?

    To return to your statement;

    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids.

    Would you therefore also agree that;

    "It's important to be able to get to work by horse and cart without reliance on modern petrol
    driven vehicles."

    After all, cars "frequently fail" so clearly it makes no sense to risk using one.

    To return to your statement once more;

    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids.

    I think that should be rephrased thus;

    "it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation"

    Who the hell cares how you do it?

    If you are in *a situation* then the only important thing is to get out of it, by any means
    possible. Whether you do so by using a map & compass, a GPS, a helicopter, an SAS extraction team,
    or navigating by the stars, it really doesn't matter! All that matters is that you get out of the
    situation without any casualties. If using a bit of modern "witchcraft" can help then what's wrong
    with that? Is it better that someone might die just so that you can proudly tell people afterwards;
    "but we didn't use a GPS!".

    Quoted message said:

    The ML course is designed to minimise the risk to children by being taken out by untrained
    mavericks, and if that means that the trainees have to be exposed to some risk, so be it.

    But if the objective is to minimise risk, then why would you make a conscious decision *not* to
    take a device that could minimise risk? Whoever "designed" that course seems to have a fundamental
    misunderstaning of the concept of risk minimisation if prohibiting carrying a GPS is a requirement
    of the course. Same goes for mobile phones.

    Who said anything about prohibiting the device?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Or do you think that, for example, the river crossing exercise should be taught from the dry of a
    classroom and video rather than out in the water because the risk is too great?

    I think that a GPS should be taken as a *backup*, and as a track recording device for later
    analysis of your actual route. I'm not suggesting that you actually *navigate* with it, merely that
    you take one with you in case you find yourself in an emergency situation where your traditional
    navigational skills fail.

    Which incidentally, they did!

    You admitted to being lost, so for all your talk about how wonderful it was to navigate by map and
    compass, the fact is that you actually *failed* to do so. You said;

    Quoted message said:

    There's no point in navigating from an unknown point.

    Exactly! So at that time your map and compass skills had failed you. A quick look at your GPS would
    have given you a known point. You could then have put it away and continued your navigation by
    traditional means. It was after all, just an exercise, wasn't it?

    No. We were lost, so we used a map and compass to navigate to a known point and extract ourselves.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I loved the whole week and the challenges it posed.

    Good. You got lost, you didn't have a GPS, no-one got hurt and you had great fun. But what if
    someone had got hurt? What if their life depended on you knowing where you were and getting a
    message out? A GPS and a mobile phone could have saved the day. How would you feel if someone had
    an accident and subsequently died because you were lost and couldn't reach help quickly enough?
    Would you still be glad you left the GPS in the tent?

    A mobile phone would have been useless. There was no coverage.

    Quoted message said:

    Okay, maybe I'm over-dramatising things, but all I'm saying is that taking a GPS as a backup
    wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't ruin your traditional nav if you didn't use it, but you'd have it
    available if you really, really needed it.

    At the time, I wished I had brought my GPS. Looking back from the comfort of my own home, I am
    glad I hadn't.

    Rest assured, if ever I go out with a group of novices, I will make sure that I have my GPS with me
    - and spare batteries.

    But also be assured that if ever I go on a map and compass navigational exercise or assessment, I
    will not use a GPS as a navigational aid.

  16. C L Imber said:
    Fran said:

    [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:

    >If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
    >instructor had a mild case.

    Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.


    Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
    chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated
    to by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

    I asked her the following day if she was cold. Her hands were cold, but her body was warm. To
    diagnose hypothermia on the basis of cold hands alone, and without direct experience of the
    situation is assish.

    I once went up Scarfell Pike and felt dizzy at the summit. One of my walking companions made an ass
    of himself by diagnosing altitude sickness. But that's not what it was. I'd forgotten my gloves so,
    to keep my hands warm, I kept them up my sleeves. Every now and then I blew up my sleeves to warm
    my hands. When we stopped for lunch I repeatedly blew up my sleeves. It wasn't altitude sickness I
    was suffering from - it was hyperventilation! I had made an ass out of myself too!!! But at least I
    was able to rationalise what was wrong instead of leaping to the wrong conclusion.

    Stopping and jumping into a survival bag would have made the situation worse not better. We would
    have had to have given up all hope of recovering the situation to do that - and that is when group
    morale would have severely fallen. The option was raised by me, and we all knew it was an option we
    could fall back on. Once inside survival bags there would be no other last resort.

    The correct response, given the size of the party would have been to get into the survival bags.
    Staying out in the cold, the rain and especially the wind is the worse you can do, even if you are
    exercising to keep warm.

    If there is then a continuing problem you can either all sit it out and wait for the alarm to be
    raised, or if the party is large enough you divide and send a group for help. With the tents so
    close you ideally should have broken camp and brought shelter to the casualty.

    Quoted message said:


    Being well fed and warm (hands excepted) we were in pretty good shape. We could have walked until
    dawn - only four hours away by the time we got back to camp.

    --
    79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
    looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

  17. C L Imber said:

    The Mountain Training Trust (MTT) recommend the following equipment for walking in the British
    mountains in summer conditions:


    <snip list>

    And you expect me to carry that lot up to the top of Pen y Fan in the middle of an August heatwave?

    Don't get me wrong, it's undoubtedly a very sensible list, but I've done the whole "carrying half a
    ton of kit just in case" scenario and it's often overkill. That list of kit would help me survive in
    the middle of winter! :-)

    Far better to choose your kit based on current (and forseeable) weather conditions, but I can
    understand the logic of "erring on the side of caution". Wouldn't want to recommend walking in
    shorts, t-shirt and trainers with a couple of bars of chocolate now would they? Yet there are times
    when it's perfectly safe to do exactly that, although as a disclaimer, maybe you need 20 years of
    hillwalking experience first before you become capable of making that judgement... ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    Not even a whiff of a GPS or mobile phone.

    So because the traditionalists are obstinately stuck in their luddite ways, you take that as proof
    that those items are unnecessary?

    Or even worse, do you assume that the lack of inclusion of those items in the list actually implies
    that you *shouldn't* take them with you?

    Quoted message said:

    The BMC and MTT are concerned that reliance on a GPS as a primary navigational tool will result in
    over reliance and detract people's sill in using a map and compass,

    I'm concerned that their traditionalist views are way out of date and that they fail to fully
    recognise the benefits of modern navigational technology, and are unwilling to adapt to them.
    Strange that GPS is now commonplace and accepted in aircraft and naval navigation throughout the
    modern world, yet in the backward world of walking it's still treated with suspicion and contempt.

    But hang on a moment, did you say; "people's skill in using a map and compass"?

    Which people are you talking about exactly? Experienced hillwalkers? Or tourists?

    The fact is, like it or not, that many of the people that walk up mountains on hot, sunny days are
    not experienced hillwalkers. Most of them are Johnny Townie and his girlfriend who thought it might
    be fun to go out and walk up that interesting looking hill wearing just t-shirt, shorts and
    trainers. They don't have spare fleeces, waterproofs, emergency rations and survival bags in their
    rucksacks. They don't even have rucksacks! Map and compass? Gimme a break! The nearest thing they've
    got to a map is the AA road atlas that they left in the car and even if they had a compass all
    they'd be able to deduce from it is which way north is, which in itself isn't a lot of use.

    No, the standard navigation technique used by Johnnie Townie is to park next to all those other cars
    and follow all those other people walking up that path up the hill. After all, everyone else must
    know the way, right? So they couldn't possibly get lost, could they?

    Okay, a little bit of humour there, but you know what they say about true words and jest...

    Quoted message said:

    They can see the benefits of a GPS as a navigational aid.

    If they can see the benefits, why don't they act on them?

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe they are not correct in their views - but I'm not qualified to contradict what they say.

    You don't have to be "qualified" to be able to tell that three navigational devices are better than
    two. That's just plain common sense.

    Paul

  18. The message <[email hidden]>
    from C L Imber <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    The Mountain Training Trust (MTT) recommend the following equipment for walking in the British
    mountains in summer conditions:

    snip

    That list seems more than a bit over the top for summer hillwalking. Do normal able bodied adults
    (or even teenagers) really require such a high degree of cosseting?

    --
    Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
    killfiled on sight

  19. C L Imber said:
    W. D. Grey said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, C L Imber
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    The Mountain Training Trust (MTT) recommend the following equipment for walking in the British
    mountains in summer conditions:

    Personal kit
    - rucksack
    - emergency bivouac bag
    - waterproof jacket
    - over trousers
    - map
    - compass
    - torch plus spare battery plus spare bulb
    - walking boots
    - drink
    - lunch
    - whistle
    - hat
    - gloves
    - spare gloves
    - spare fleece or similar warm layer
    - spare food
    - personal first aid
    - sanitary supplies

    Extra equipment for the group leader
    - first aid kit
    - group shelter
    - spare map (1:50,000)
    - spare compass
    - spare fleece or similar warm layer
    - penknife
    - spare hat
    - spare gloves
    - spare socks
    - spare food
    - warm drink or food
    - rope
    - small repair kit

    Not even a whiff of a GPS or mobile phone.

    The BMC and MTT are concerned that reliance on a GPS as a primary navigational tool will result in
    over reliance and detract people's sill in using a map and compass, which they consider to be more
    "rugged". They can see the benefits of a GPS as a navigational aid.

    The benefits are that it would tell you where you were. They are as rugged as compasses, which can
    be trodden on (so you carry a spare) or maps, which can blow away. A GPS might run out of batteries,
    so you carry a spare set, in the same manner that you carry spare compass and spares for your torch.

    Most of your kit was back at the tent you had no group shelter with you no spare clothing etc etc.

    Yes you can learn a lot form an epic but do you *need* to have an epic to learn.

    I learn't on my trip to the Moelwyns that I should have been navigating rather than relying on
    another, I should have used a headtorch rather than attempting to rely on night vision on a cloudy
    night. We were at least carrying all our gear so all we had to do was find a flat spot and bung the
    tent up and wait for morning to see where we had ended up, though we knew where we were and where
    we had been (so we knew where our navigational errors were from the GPS we had recording in a
    rucksac pocket.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  20. On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:02:25 GMT, [email hidden] (Chris

    Street) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Stopping and jumping into a survival bag would have made the situation worse not better. We would
    have had to have given up all hope of recovering the situation to do that - and that is when group
    morale would have severely fallen. The option was raised by me, and we all knew it was an option
    we could fall back on. Once inside survival bags there would be no other last resort.

    The correct response, given the size of the party would have been to get into the survival bags.
    Staying out in the cold, the rain and especially the wind is the worse you can do, even if you are
    exercising to keep warm.

    If there is then a continuing problem you can either all sit it out and wait for the alarm to be
    raised, or if the party is large enough you divide and send a group for help. With the tents so
    close you ideally should have broken camp and brought shelter to the casualty.

    Which direction should the group go for help? North, South, East or West.

    How do we find the tents? Should we have looked for them North, South, East or West?

    Who was the casualty?

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