Lost at Night

C L Imber said:

A quality mountain day is further defined, as are the mountainous regions of the British Isles.

A summary of the definitions follows:

Mountainous regions: Highlands and Islands of Scotland, Peak District, Black Mountains, Brecon
Beacons, Dartmoor, Cheviots, Lake District, North and Mid Wales, North York Moors, Pennines - plus
the mountains of Ireland (North and South).

Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial summit,
planning and leadership.

Have they taken out the 600m minimum height requirement then?
--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

"C L Imber" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"To register you *should* have at least twelve months experience of hill walking. You *must* also
have an interest in leadership of groups and be at least eighteen years of age."

"In order to attend a training course you *must* be registered with the ML scheme and have
experienced at least twenty quality mountain days."

Yes but no one is going to try and check this are they. My girlfriend went on an ML course at Plas Y
Brenin without any intention of ever leading groups into the hills but rather as a confidence
boosting thing. And from what she told me some others on the course were similar. She might be a
competent navigator but I don't think she'd cope well in any real crisis situation and it would have
been interesting to see whether they would have actually passed her or not had she carried it
through. Does anyone know pass and fail rates? How does the assessment check for the kind of
qualities needed to cope in adverse circumstances rather than just technical skills and theoretical
knowledge?

W. D. Grey said:

In article <[email hidden]>, C L Imber
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just one criticism: on the return to 572 from an iffy 631 in such bad visibility, I would have
aimed off onto Llyn y Biswail. A nice big target which should be easy to find. Then follow it
around to the wall, and use this as a defined point to go for 572. Of course, I'm typing this
from a warm office, not a rainy hillside at 2 in the morning!

Absolutely right. The reason for not doing that was that we'd have passed straight through
our camp.

Come off it you're full of contradictions - I quote:

"I wasn't able to find the 572 spot height, so the instructor asked me to pace onward and find the
wall which runs northwest from the lake, just south of the spot height. I couldn't find the
wall....."

I see you snip this: "En route we heard a shout from our camp by the instructor's sister. Our
instructor shouted back that we were OK."

Doesn't that indicate that we were close to our camp?

"W. D. Grey" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

All the above would never need have been quoted for the simple expedient of taking one GPS fix!
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

I was under the impression this was a training week. They could have inputted the destinations to
the GPS from the comfort of the tent, and then followed the GPS blindly. Wouldn't have learnt very
much though.

M

Steve Jones said:

#2. Your concerns over your leader possibly being at the early stages
of hypothermia.

I think it was me that brought that up as as possibility not C L Imber.

Quoted message said:

A person in that condition will likely answer that they are 'OK', because one of the symptoms is
the body's 'shutting down' to preserve heat leads to lessening of brain activity and they do not
realise that they are not 'OK'. I am sure that you took that on board and monitored her for the
rest of the walk, and she was not in any imminent danger. BUT - what if she had deteriorated?

It seems to me that this training excersise instead of being leader plus trainees turned into a
group of equals. I have been on training walks (winter mountaineering in Scotland) where the leader
made mistakes but was the first to realise we were lost (being on one of her pet hills she knew
within a matter of minutes where we were) and used the oportunity to get us to work out where we
were from the map. On another occasion on the same course she knew full well where we were and got
us to work out the best course to get off the hill in 10m visibility, which is really 20m
visibility because you can see back 10m and forward 10m which is plenty enough to judge where a
wall or slope is going.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

"Steve Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am very grateful that the original posting was made, it has

prompted

Quoted message said:

a lively and interesting debate, kick starting this discussion group back to life.

Yes, well done Mr CLimber.

Graham
Ps, what's your real name?

(Steve Jones) said:

I am very grateful that the original posting was made, it has prompted a lively and interesting
debate, kick starting this discussion group back to life. There have been diverse views as one
would expect from a cross section of the population. If we all thought the same, we'd all head for
the same hill and never experience 'wilderness'. I'm not a mountain leader and not qualified to
preach, but from the original posting, it is clear that as a group, you were ill-prepared for a
mishap which came close on two occasions.

#1. Your fall into the stream. That could easily have been a
leg-breaker with an enforced stop in a survival bag. At that point you were still 'lost',
help would have undoubtedly been eventually summoned, but it would have taken the messenger
wasted time to get orientated to find a way to civilisation. If the injury had been critical,
such as a fractured femur leading to possible shock and/or severed femoral artery, then time
is of the essence.

#2. Your concerns over your leader possibly being at the early stages
of hypothermia. A person in that condition will likely answer that they are 'OK', because one of
the symptoms is the body's 'shutting down' to preserve heat leads to lessening of brain activity
and they do not realise that they are not 'OK'. I am sure that you took that on board and monitored
her for the rest of the walk, and she was not in any imminent danger. BUT - what if she had
deteriorated? That condition would have been caused by walking about in soaking weather (and
probably clothes). Deciding to continue walking about in exactly the conditions that brought about
the hypothermia certainly would'nt make it better. She would have had to be placed in a survival
bag, out of the rain and wind, where a 'micro-climate' that is warmer than the outside can be
induced. Yes, she would have had a cold [censored], but the hypothermia would have already closed down
the blood vessels in that area, so she would not have sufferered significant heat loss in that
direction.

Once again, time is of the essence in summoning help. A GPS would precisely fix the point at which
the casualty is laid up. It will help the messenger to quickly navigate to civilisation. The GPS
could be handed directly to the Rescue Party and save them huge amounts of time and effort by
leading them straight back to the casualty.

The merits of GPS etc have been fully discussed, and the fact is that as one was available to your
party, it should have been taken. From a litigation point of view, had a death or serious injury
resulted from an avoidable delay in getting help, then the body running the course would most
definately have been liable for neglecting to take out safety measures available to them.

One other thing concerns me, and that is the lack of respect shown to the party leader. Were I that
person, I would expect members to take with them equipment that I prescribe. There is nothing worse
than trying to tell 'been there, dunnits' what to do. It was a formal course, and whether you do
actually know better or not, you should have complied with the leader's instruction to take packs.
She probably should have put her foot down and refused to leave until the party were in compliance,
but it was obviously a steep learning curve for several in the party.

The second and potentially more dangerous lack of respect shown was deliberately choosing not to
inform the leader of your fall and immersion in water. Yes, you may have felt foolish, but the
leader needs to be aware of any factors that could have an impact on planning for the rest of that
exercise.

Besides that, it seems to have been a worthwhile exercise and experience. I am actually quite
envious, but try not to let it show. We all learn best from mistakes in life (preferably other
people's). I am sure you will be a better and wiser Mountain Leader if you take on board the
lessons that need to be learned from the situation.

I have probably lined myself up for a reply incorporating some glorious invective, including the
dubious labels 'ass' and even worse 'assiness'. Oh my God, will I be able to show my face in
public again?

I am in broad agreement with most of what you say.

I'd like to say, however, that I did not tell the instructor of my tumble at the time because I
didn't want to concern her any further than she was already.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

I have probably lined myself up for a reply incorporating some glorious invective, including the
dubious labels 'ass' and even worse 'assiness'.

Nah, you'll be all right. We ate the OP for breakfast and it's not lunch time yet. *Burp*

Quoted message said:

Oh my God, will I be able to show my face in public again?

Yes. What's more, with the attitude you've displayed above, you'll still be alive at the end of the
trek to do so :-)
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

C L Imber said:

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

>If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
>instructor had a mild case.

Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.

Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated
to by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

I asked her the following day if she was cold. Her hands were cold, but her body was warm. To
diagnose hypothermia on the basis of cold hands alone, and without direct experience of the
situation is assish.

I was going by what you said.

<quote> The instructor, I felt, should look after herself, although I was still concerned about her.
She couldn't hold a compass to the map, and relied on me to help her. </>

Being unable to navigate with gloves on means there is a design fault in your compass or your
gloves. Or you have a problem in thinking whether you need to wear them.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook said:

I was bearing in mind the fact that society is becoming more and more litigious as time passes. Who
knows what will happen in a court of law when Mummy and Daddy get the best lawyer they can buy to
find out why their little dear came to an early end?

Over the week we discussed to particularly nasty incidents.

#1 The ten year old boy who drowned when he accompanied his mother
with a secondary school on a geography field trip to the Lake District.

#2 The severe burns an 11 year old boy received when a Trangia stove
was refulled.

#1 The group had been trapped indoors most of the week due to bad
weather. The geography teacher decided that come what may they would go on a gorge walk the next
day. The party walked up to the gorge, on the way they met an RAF party coming down who said the
tarn was too swollen to use safely. The group continued. At the pool, the teacher instructed the
strongest child to get in, wade across, and get out the other side. The boy struggled, but managed
it, clambering out shivering. The ten year old indicated that he wanted to go next. The geography
teacher gave him a "thumbs up" signal, and in the boy went. The boy couldn't manage it. The
geography jumped in but could do nothing to save the boy as he "was too cold". The mum jumped in and
held her son's head above water but hypothermia set in and she could not hold on. The boy drowned,
the mum, the geography teacher and the first boy to go in were all treated for hypothermia. The
geography teacher didn't bring a rope to the beck because he thought it might scare the children if
he did. The geography teacher now languishes in gaol for a one year term. His teaching union, who
provided his defense team, feel the gaol term appropriate.

#2 A child said that his Trangia stove had gone out. A "helper" on
the trip went to get the main refulling can (not a refulling bottle), which was half empty and had
been sitting in a hot tent all day. He started to pour the meths from the main can directly into the
Trangia reservoir. In daylight it looked like the Trangia stove was out - it was not. The warm
meths' vapour and the meths exploded causing the boy to suffer third degree burns; his trainers
melted onto his feet. It was not the volunteer helper, the teacher or the school who was held
responsible. It was the owners of the centre: Greenwich Education Authority, and the local education
authority of the hapless boy's school who were found to be negligent in their duty of care by the
HSE. Jointly the two education authorities settled out of court with the boy for £1,000,000.

These two cases hardly indicate a litigious society.

In [email hidden]
C L Imber mused:

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

In [email hidden] C L Imber mused:

Quoted message said:

She was as lost as the rest of us were.

Did she tell you that? Instructors are allowed to have their 'bit of fun' with some light leg-
pulling - makes it all the more 'realistic'.

Believe me - the ear bashing her sister gave her on our return to camp convinces me that she was
as lost as the rest of us.

Was her sister another PyB assessor/trainer (I suppose they send them out in pairs)?

In any case she may have thought that 'sis' should have 'taken control' rather than let you try to
extricate yourselves - instructors/assessors are entitled to differences of opinion.

How much time elapsed since she shouted that you were OK and actually returning? From your
account probably at least 5 hours. Exercises that 'over-run' stretch the nerves of those who are
waiting. She was probably giving her an ear-drubbing for not taking the group shelter as well - a
spell in the shelter thinking out a recovery plan is a lot more pleasant than doing it in the
'minging rain' :-)

(BTW - Your original statement 'So, until the moment we decided to walk north west to meet a wall,
we were never more than 100m from our lake' looks slightly incorrect - the sheepfolds are about 200m
from the NE end of the lake.)

P.S. Were you allowed a lie-in next morning?

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:18:52 +0000, C L Imber
<[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To use a GPS in a post mortem would have been very valuable. However, the GPS would have come
out of the bag way too early to pinpoint our location so once again the experience would have
been lost.

Again, why ? You didn't have to use it unless absolutely necessary.

We'd have felt it absolutely necessary.

Kind of explains my point I think ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Lets look at one scenario you might not realise. You have admitted your lost, ther fore you dont
>know where you are. If one of you had had an accident.I doubt that you could have gone to get
>help & even tell the Rescue Team where to go and I doubt that between you, you couldn't have
>given the casualty any comfort and help.

Had someone had a serious accident - e.g. a broken leg the whole complexion of the experience
would have changed. It is a hypothetical situation, but this is how I'd have handled the
situation if I was the instructor.

#1 Given what first aid I could to the victim 2 Stuff the victim into a survival bag with the
#second strongest team
member
#3 With the fourth party member, follow the stream off the hill to the
river and then to the road to the West

We may not have known our precise location, but we did know the vicinity. We also knew which
river all the local streams flowed to.

BUT !!! You could of given them the PRECISE location !

It's still a highly hypothetical situation.

Mmm.. could possibly of ended up a real one if it had been left to your *instructor* ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A GPS weighs next to nothing. I personaly can't beleive your instructor wasn't carrying one. In
this case you were lucky. Ot could of made all the dfference. Please give the name of the company
who runs the course, so I can avoid them ;-)

No. It was an excellent course, and I learnt a great deal.

Glad you enjoyed it, but I think they sound a little ropy to me ;-) Mike.

--

Email address spamtrapped.
Remove "your clothes" to reply.

Quoted message said:

Also, it's pretty much useless without a map.

Apart from the trackback facility, which would have solved all your problems even without a map...

--
Boo

C L Imber said:

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:18:54 -0000, Fran <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

>If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
>instructor had a mild case.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated
to by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

Quoted message said:

I asked her the following day if she was cold. Her hands were cold, but her body was warm. To
diagnose hypothermia on the basis of cold hands alone, and without direct experience of the
situation is assish.

Have you ever suffered hypothermia? I have, and although I know all about hypothermia, I had no idea
until I got pretty bad that something was wrong. "Pretty bad" means I lost the ability to move my
fingers independently, my hands had become paws, I was suffering from mild tunnel vision, and had
become sufficiently confused that I couldn't think clearly. In retrospect it was clear that
progressive mental fogging concealed from me what was happening to me, and by the time things were
bad enough that I couldn't ignore them, it took a long time for the penny to drop through my
confusion.

I now know, from that experience, that it's possible to become significantly confused and stupid
without realising it. Even so, despite that experience, it's so insidious I wouldn't bet on my
ability when alone to recognise it im myself.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

C L Imber said:

On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 03:28:42 -0000, "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

C L Imber wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Phil Cook wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the rules" but they work,
> will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if even the instructor is lost surely it
> is OK to use one?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had a GPS in my tent. I decided not to take it, and I am very glad that I didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That makes no logical sense.

Quoted message said:

I'm glad that I didn't take it because of the satisfaction of extracting ourselves without reliance
on a GPS.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the contrary, you lost a valuable lesson by *not* taking the GPS. If you'd taken it and
recorded a track of your walk (no obligation to actually look at it during the exercise), you
could have studied it later to see exactly where you went. As it is, you can only make
suppositions about where you went, whereas a GPS track would have shown you *exactly* where you
made your fundamental error.

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

In that case, it should have been the instructor, not me, who should have taken the GPS.

You don't have to rely on the instructor to learn lessons from an exercise. In fact in some cases it
can be a pretty slow way of learning :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ropes, maps and compasses are rugged instruments and rarely fail.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPSs frequently fail

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ah, the familiar words of the non-GPS user, or Luddite, or traditionalist, or <insert preferred
variety of GPS hater>. Here we go again...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To anyone who understands the requirements of using a GPS, it is a very reliable device. In four
years of regular use my GPS has hardly ever "failed" (depending of course on how you define
failure).

Quoted message said:

Now you make an ass out of yourself.

Quoted message said:

I *am* a GPS user. I use it frequently and have done so for over 18 months

Quoted message said:

I also know the times it has failed.

Quoted message said:

When I forgot to turn it off and the batteries expired.

You call this a "GPS failure"? That's about as daft as calling it a compass failure when it points
in the wrong direction because you were reading it at night by means of the backlit display of your
mobile phone.

Quoted message said:

During a cycle ride up the Wye Valley.

That's not a GPS failure, that's ignorance of how to use one.

Quoted message said:

In a deep gully in the Pyrenees.

That might really be a problem, but given the other two points you mention, I'm not convinced it
wasn't your ignorance of how to get a reading from a GPS in adverse conditions.

Quoted message said:

In woodland below Moel Hebog.

That's not a GPS failure, that's ignorance of how to use one.

Quoted message said:

Also, it's pretty much useless without a map.

Total bollocks. If all you'd done was waypoint your camp before starting off, which requires no map,
it could have have got you back, either directly or by backtracking. Even without any wapypoints, or
any map, it can still give you far more useful navigational clues than a compass.

And if "pretty useless without a map" is supposed to be a valid criticism of a GPS, what's the point
of taking a compass, which is even less use than A GPS without a map?

Quoted message said:

Other times when a GPS might fail are after its been dropped, after the owner has fallen or in case
of war and the signal is scrambled.

And many compasses are no use after you've dropped it on a rock and then stood on it, after you
put it in the same pocket as your radio, in the vicinity of magnetic rocks, and during severe
magnetic storms, the last two of which you're a lot more likely than the scrambling of GPS signals
during war.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
navigational aids.

Do you know how to make a compass, in the hills, if you haven't got one? Do you know how to find
compass directions from tree trunks? Do you know how to use feldspar, a digital watch, or a GPS with
dead batteries, to find the sun's position when obscured by clouds? Do you know how to navigate by
sun, moon, and stars?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Okay, maybe I'm over-dramatising things, but all I'm saying is that taking a GPS as a backup
wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't ruin your traditional nav if you didn't use it, but you'd have it
available if you really, really needed it.

Quoted message said:

At the time, I wished I had brought my GPS. Looking back from the comfort of my own home, I am glad
I hadn't.

Quoted message said:

Rest assured, if ever I go out with a group of novices, I will make sure that I have my GPS with me
- and spare batteries.

Quoted message said:

But also be assured that if ever I go on a map and compass navigational exercise or assessment, I
will not use a GPS as a navigational aid.

What you are missing, and what all these mountain navigation courses miss which insist on map and
compass with GPS as a possible backup, is that it is also important a) to know how to use a GPS, and
b), to know how to get the best from it in difficult conditions.

Suppose you're fog bound and lost, scared to move far in treacherous territory, and decide things
have got so bad they warrant taking out the GPS and switching it on. You do that, and it complains
signal is too weak. What do you do next?

Suppose you've switched the GPS on in difficult conditions, such as in a gully, and it gives you a
reading which your map says is very definitely nowhere near a gully. What do you do next?

Mountain navigation courses are quite right to insist that people should learn basic map and compass
navigation skills. I think they're daft either to ignore GPS skills, or to merely consider it a
useful extra that doesn't need any special training. If you have one, you ought to know when it
works well, when it works badly, and why, how to improve bad readings, how to identify and correct
ridiculous errors, how to use to it follow bearings, how to use it to get accurate compass bearings
for triangulation if you happen to have lost your sighting compass, etc. etc.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the GPS would have come out of the bag way too early to pinpoint our location so once again the
experience would have been lost.

Again, why ? You didn't have to use it unless absolutely necessary.

We'd have felt it absolutely necessary.

Hoist by your own wossname.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

C L Imber said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had a GPS in my tent. I decided not to take it, and I am very glad that I didn't.

That makes no logical sense.

I'm glad that I didn't take it because of the satisfaction of extracting ourselves without
reliance on a GPS.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not saying you should have *relied* on a GPS, or even
*used* it, merely that it was logical to take one with you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. As a backup, in case of a real emergency.
2. To record a track of your walk, for later study.

OK. But had I had it with me it would have come out of my pack as soon as we decided we were lost.

You wouldn't have *had* to do that, you'd still have had a choice whether to take the easy way out
or continue to do things the hard way.

With regard to the "Been there, done that" comment by Phil, I was with him at the time and we
literally did do that, i.e. night nav with map and compass on the Moelwyns, with the slight
difference that we both had our GPS units recording a track as we went.

To cut a long story short we were backpacking to a wild camping spot which turned out to be
unsuitable, so we had to improvise and look for a better spot, but we needed to locate some water
which turned out to be hard to find. Problems ensued when physical features didn't match up with the
map, like when we suddenly found ourselves on the edge of a small cliff. It wasn't bad nav, it
turned out later (when studying the GPS track) that the map was wrong, it merely showed steep
contours, not a cliff edge. At the time though we were understandably confused.

We were carrying heavy packs, it was getting very late, and we really had no desire to wander around
all night trying to figure out where we were, so in the end we agreed to use the GPS, whereupon
everything suddenly became clear. Arguably it would have been a good "learning experience" if we'd
continued to stumble around blindly in the dark, but at my age I've had enough such learning
experiences that I really didn't feel there'd be any benefit to having another one.

I'm sure we'd have coped if we hadn't used the GPS, but it would have taken us longer to find a camp
site and we'd have had even less sleep as a result, which might have caused us to miss the amazing
sunrise that we went there to photograph. As it was we were awake at 4am after only 3 or 4 hours
sleep, and the photos we took of the fantastic inversion sunrise were worth far more than a learning
experience stumbling around in the dark.

I guess it all depends on your reason for doing it. You were there specifically for a night nav
exercise, we were just going wild camping at night.

Quoted message said:

In that case, it should have been the instructor, not me, who should have taken the GPS.

That seems to make logical sense.

Quoted message said:

But there were no serious consequences.

Luckily no, but what if there were? You did fall in a river didn't you? It could have been a
lot worse.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPSs frequently fail

Ah, the familiar words of the non-GPS user, or Luddite, or traditionalist,

Quoted message said:

Now you make an ass out of yourself.

Oh good, wouldn't want to be left out.

Quoted message said:

I *am* a GPS user. I use it frequently and have done so for over 18 months

They always say that...

Quoted message said:

I also know the times it has failed.

When I forgot to turn it off and the batteries expired.

That's not a GPS failure, that's *your* fault! And why would you want to turn it off anyway? It's at
it's most useful when it's switched on, recording a track. How many batteries do you take anyway? I
usually take 5 sets for a weekend, enough for at least 40 hours of recording.

Quoted message said:

During a cycle ride up the Wye Valley. In a deep gully in the Pyrenees. In woodland below
Moel Hebog.

See Chris's response.

These aren't really failures, just limitations of a GPS, and unless you spend all your time walking
around in forests, they don't affect you most of the time. Most hillwalkers spend their time on
hills, where reception is typically excellent, and that's exactly where you were on your night nav
exercise, on a hill, so it would have worked fine.

Quoted message said:

Also, it's pretty much useless without a map.

If you really believe that then I have to wonder what you've been doing with your GPS for the last
18 months.

One of the problems with attitudes toward GPS is that many people assume that no skill is required
in using one. Everyone knows that you need to *learn* how to use a map and compass, so why don't
people realise that you also need to learn how to get the best out of a GPS? Just switching it on
occasionally and reading the grid ref is a shameful waste of it's talents, it's far more powerful
than that. Using a GPS effectively is just as much a skill as using a compass effectively.

With appropriate software and some intelligent planning you can wander around the hills at night or
in thick fog without ever needing to consult a map. Of course you'll have a map with you and you'll
probably look at it, but you wouldn't actually have to if you've prepared your GPS properly. I've
done this on visits to unfamiliar locations when the weather was bad and I just couldn't be bothered
with the hassle of taking the map out.

Quoted message said:

Other times when a GPS might fail are after its been dropped,

So don't drop it. Just like you don't drop your compass and step on it, or let your map blow away in
the wind. After four years of regular use I've never dropped mine.

Quoted message said:

after the owner has fallen

If there's a risk of falling then don't walk along with your GPS in your hand. Staring at your GPS
as you walk over slippery rocks or whatever is more likely to make you fall. Put it safely away and
use your walking poles on risky ground to ensure that you don't fall.

Quoted message said:

or in case of war and the signal is scrambled.

Yeah, I often worry about war breaking out when I go for a walk. Every time I go out I always check
the time of sunset, check the weather report, and check the news to see if there's any risk of the
UK being invaded while I'm half way up Pen y Fan. ;-)

By the way, if you really think that's likely you should read up on it. If war does break out it's
highly unlikely they will scramble it, there are too many people relying on it these days, like
aircraft for example. During the first Gulf war, accuracy actually improved, and it wasn't scrambled
during the second one. By the way, they claim to be able to "locally" scramble the signals over a
particular area now, although there is some disagreement that this is actually possible.

Even if they do "scramble" it, all that means is making the signal less accurate, as was the norm
before May 2000, when they switched SA off. You obviously weren't using a GPS back then, but I was,
and I can tell you that even with the reduced accuracy (typically 50-60m instead of 15m) it was
still very useable, easily good enough for a standard 6 figure grid ref. Occasionally it would go
out by as much as 200-300m, but that would usually only last for a few minutes, and it was quite
easy to see when that happened, so you'd just wait for a little while if you were in a critical nav
situation. I even managed a short night nav around a forest while SA was switched on - it was a
little confusing but I still managed it.

Quoted message said:

Who said anything about prohibiting the device?

Someone did, can't remember who. But it seems that where these traditional navigation exercises are
concerned, the use of GPS seems to be taboo, rather like using a calculator during a maths exam once
was (when I was a youngster). Nowadays I believe that calculators are "required" for maths exams.

Quoted message said:

No. We were lost, so we used a map and compass to navigate to a known point and extract ourselves.

I always thought the whole point of navigating with a map and compass was to prevent you getting
lost in the first place. By appropriate use of the compass, counting paces where necessary, and
constant reference to the map, you should always know where you are.

Quoted message said:

A mobile phone would have been useless. There was no coverage.

How do you know? You're just making assumptions. You assume that there would be no coverage so you
proclaim it to be useless and don't take it. Don't give up so easily.

On another occasion a few years ago, I was wild camping in the Moelwyns (Llynnau Diwaunedd) and I
successfully phoned Chris Street, who was just arriving at Moelwyns. I had to wander around a bit to
find a spot where I could get a signal, but mountains are like that, you get a signal in one spot,
but twenty yards away you don't. So you just wander around until you find a good spot, usually one
where you have a view down into a valley.

Quoted message said:

Rest assured, if ever I go out with a group of novices, I will make sure that I have my GPS with
me - and spare batteries.

But also be assured that if ever I go on a map and compass navigational exercise or assessment, I
will not use a GPS as a navigational aid.

Fine.

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Roger Chapman said:

The message <[email hidden]> from C L Imber
<[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial
summit, planning and leadership.

Quoted message said:

Hmm. So if you go out on your own then it dosn't count. (No leadership possible without anyone
to lead).

Not necessarily. I remember asking a cow orker how many people our boss was in charge of. "Well,",
came the considered reply, "If we count him as well, then the total comes to zero."

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Roger Chapman said:

The message <[email hidden]> from C L Imber
<[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial
summit, planning and leadership.

Hmm. So if you go out on your own then it dosn't count. (No leadership possible without anyone
to lead).

Varied experiences is what is important. You can't really expect to qualify as a mountain leader if
you have no group experiences.

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 02:34:54 GMT, [email hidden] (Chris

Street) said:

C L Imber said:

A quality mountain day is further defined, as are the mountainous regions of the British Isles.

A summary of the definitions follows:

Mountainous regions: Highlands and Islands of Scotland, Peak District, Black Mountains, Brecon
Beacons, Dartmoor, Cheviots, Lake District, North and Mid Wales, North York Moors, Pennines - plus
the mountains of Ireland (North and South).

Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial summit,
planning and leadership.

Have they taken out the 600m minimum height requirement then?

I haven't seen that figure quoted - 600m might count as a substantial summit in some mountainous
regions - but not in others.