Lost at Night

The message <[email hidden]>
from C L Imber <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That list seems more than a bit over the top for summer hillwalking. Do normal able bodied adults
(or even teenagers) really require such a high degree of cosseting?

Quoted message said:

"Summer conditions" is not the same as "summer hillwalking".

Quoted message said:

They define summer conditions as, "any time of year when there is no likelihood of encountering
snow or ice".

Then they should say what the mean.

Is all their other advice couched in such misleading language? You and they (and all others who may
be privy to their secret code) may know what they mean but for Joe Public summer conditions means
what it says. Apart from the temperature difference the short nights and substantially better worst
case weather scenario mean summer walking is a different kettle of fish to winter walking, however
pleasing the winter weather.

Quoted message said:

I'm a primary school teacher. The young people who I may be taking into the mountains are up to
the age of 11.

The advice you quoted appears to be intended for general application. My response suggested it was
over the top for able bodied adults and possibly teenagers as well. It might be different these days
but when I was a teenager it was usually taken to mean 13 - 19 years old.

Quoted message said:

Fortunately, 11 year olds usually do as they are told. In a class of 15 year olds, if you tell
them to take hat and gloves, there will be one or two who don't because they "think they won't
need them".

Do a kit check first and exclude those who won't take basic advice. If you can't get them to follow
such simple instructions how can you hope to control them in potentially dangerous conditions in the
hills? You won't be able to physically restrain them and neither will you be able to focus your
exclusive attention on a minority of trouble makers/morons.

Quoted message said:

Now, perhaps the hat and gloves and extra sweater can be dispensed with on a busy hill if the
forecast is good. But in general, the advice is sound. Heavy rain showers can happen at the most
unexpected moments in the British mountains.

So if you don't carry waterproof you get wet. What's the big deal? It might be unpleasant but not so
long ago it was the perfectly acceptable norm. I have an "Educational Productions Ltd" booklet in
the "know the game series" dating from 1958 (which postdates my introduction to fell walking). Its
title is 'Rock Climbing' but it covers mountain walking as well. In the section on general clothing
it says "It can be bitterly cold on a crag or mountain, even in summer, and a cold wind is one of
the climber's main enemies. Choose clothes of windproof rather than waterproof material. Waterproofs
cause uncomfortable claminess [sic], and a climber wearing windproofs will come to no harm in the
rain if he keeps moving. An army gas-cape or a cheap plastic cape with sleeves is worth packing, but
ordinary capes are useless on a mountain in high wind." Another piece of advice is "shorts are not
recommended" so the advice obviously wasn't intended for sub 13 year old boys who traditionally wore
short trousers the whole year round.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

Quoted message said:

Also, once were decided we were lost, we worked out a plan to get to an identifiable point. The
plan worked and we extracted ourselves from a potentially uncomfortable situation. That plan would
not have been carried out in practice had we used a GPS.

But the plan might not have worked, and what then ?

--
Boo

In [email hidden]
C L Imber mused:

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

Was her sister another PyB assessor/trainer (I suppose they send them out in pairs)?

Neither were Plas y Brenin instructors. Play y Brenin was not our centre. I assume the sis was an
ML training to become an MI.

My 'wrong' with the assumption re: PyB - it's just that the Moelwyns are a favourite of theirs. Also
related is the 'intimate' knowledge of specific areas.

(Which 'sis' do you assume to be 'ML training to MI' - the one that went out with you, or the one
left at camp? AFAIA, ML's "can't" teach/assess ML - although they can assist.)

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

We were not Johnnie Townie and his girlfriend. We were a group of fairly experienced hillwalkers
learning to navigate at night by map and compass with an experienced and qualified instructor.

<SNIP>

I think that you have just made an important point in this discussion. It seems to me that a lot of
the comments made have not considered the objective of the ML training, which is (from my
understanding) to prepare you to lead groups in the mountainous areas of the UK in Summer conditions
(which as we all know can be attrocious!).

You mentioned several mistakes in your original report, and later on you went on to discuss how you
went around the next day looking at how these mistakes were made, and what you learned from them. I
would consider this to be a valuable learning experience for you, and one which is better learnt on
ML training than when you are out with a group of youngsters.

The purpose of the night navigation exercise is twofold. Initially it aims to simulate navigation in
poor visibility, and secondly it aims to teach how to navigate if you do get benighted. Once again
it is better to gain this experience before you get stuck with a group of less experienced people.

The use of the GPS has been discussed earlier on in this thread. It might have proved useful for
part of the "post-mortem" to see where you went wrong, and it could (most likely) have given you an
exact position at any time, however IMHO this would not be in the spirit of the ML training. On my
assessment course I made some navigational errors on the Moelwyns and this was considered quite
acceptable. What the assessor was looking for was the ability to be able to re-locate myself and to
correct the error made (in a safe manner). I was able to do this.

From what you described you were able (eventually) to re-locate and reach safety, and learnt from
your mistakes. During our night navigation session another member of the team (on the Carneddau)
spent over 1 hour walking around in circles looking for a spothight. The next day we were able to
analyse his mistake, and because of the way he had dealt with his error he too passed the
assessment. On the other hand one member was deferred because they were not confident about their
location, even when they were correct, which again emphasised that we are considering how a group
will feel about their leader (would you be happy with a leader who did not appear confident?).

With regards to the instruction provided on the course I am not going to comment because I was not
present, and do not feel it would be appropriate to critisise the trainer based on second hand
information. When I did ML training with Bangor University there were two trainers, and we did our
overnight camp on the Moelwyns. On the second day one girl and one of the trainers got split from
the rest of the group. As the main body of the group we decided to descend to the road and wait for
them there. They, however, continued on the planned route, arriving back a couple of yours after us
(there was later discussion about whether this was the right thing to do). As you can imagine we
were all concerned, but again the situation was analysed and turned in to a learning experience.

Finally I would like to wish you luck with the rest of your ML. I am sure that the experience you
have had will be invaluable. The MLTB require you to go on so many "quality" mountain days before
assessment. The word "quality" does not mean sun shining all the way. What I think they are looking
for is a range of conditions giving youu experience that means you will be able to extracate a group
from a difficult situation (whilst not getting them in to a dangerous situation in the first place
through lack of competence).

Personally I would prefer to be led by someone who has made mistakes and has learnt from them than
someone who has only been out in good weather and has had no need to use the fundamental navigation
skills for real.

Best wishes,

--
Andy Harbach email: [email hidden] Walking in Snowdonia: walk-snowdonia.co.ukwalk-snowdonia.co.ukOpen ↗
UK Conditions Server: conditionsout.co.ukconditionsout.co.ukOpen ↗

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

it's so insidious I wouldn't bet on my

Quoted message said:

ability when alone to recognise it im myself.

So you'd recommend that we stop and lie down to get even colder?

No, you idiot. You snuggle up together and use each other's body heat. Without the windchill
factor this should be perfectly possible in a survival bag - that's what they're for and why
they're so called.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

C L Imber said:

Mike Hill said:

Glad you enjoyed it, but I think they sound a little ropy to me ;-)

Perhaps you should enroll - then you'd be in a better position to judge.

It seems to me that those who have taken the course, or know something about it, understand the
value of the experience.

Goto pyb.co.ukmountain quals.htmlOpen ↗, find the course: "ML Award (Summer) Training" and
click the link to the course notes.

Please note that I did not do the Plas y Brenin course, but a similar course at another centre in
North Wales.

Interesting read. Might buy a couple of their books. However I still think this *experienced* leader
made some mistakes ...

Quoted message said:

Our instructor was unwilling to take us out as the visibility was so poor, offering us a 5am
navigation instead. That was Kerry and Paul's preferred option, but I said that they were just
being lazy, and putting off the inevitable. And so I convinced our instructor to take us out.

I thought a instructor was there to instruct, not to take advice from students ?

Quoted message said:

The instructor, I felt, should look after herself, although I was still concerned about her. She
couldn't hold a compass to the map, and relied on me to help her.

She's doing a great job there then !

Quoted message said:

She said that we'd need our packs, but I didn't like the idea of taking my 95L pack out of my tent,
getting it wet again, and putting it back in my tent after the walk so I protested. She insisted
that one of us must have a survival bag so I said that I'd put it in my pocket.

Just who was instructing who ?

Don't get me wrong, I haven't been on a ML course. It just seems to me that your instructor wasn't
exactly leading. Of course I wasn't there and maybe I'm wrong. Just seems strange that's all. Still,
I am genuinley happy you enjoyed it, and wish you the best for future courses :-)

Mike.
--

Email address spamtrapped.
Remove "your clothes" to reply.

C L Imber said:

(Chris Malcolm) said:

C L Imber said:

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:18:54 -0000, Fran <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>[email hidden] said...
>> >If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
>> >instructor had a mild case.

Quoted message said:

>> Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.

Quoted message said:

>Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
>chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated
>to by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

Quoted message said:

I asked her the following day if she was cold. Her hands were cold, but her body was warm. To
diagnose hypothermia on the basis of cold hands alone, and without direct experience of the
situation is assish.

Have you ever suffered hypothermia? I have, and although I know all about hypothermia, I had no
idea until I got pretty bad that something was wrong. "Pretty bad" means I lost the ability to
move my fingers independently, my hands had become paws, I was suffering from mild tunnel vision,
and had become sufficiently confused that I couldn't think clearly. In retrospect it was clear
that progressive mental fogging concealed from me what was happening to me, and by the time things
were bad enough that I couldn't ignore them, it took a long time for the penny to drop through my
confusion.

I now know, from that experience, that it's possible to become significantly confused and stupid
without realising it. Even so, despite that experience, it's so insidious I wouldn't bet on my
ability when alone to recognise it im myself.

So you'd recommend that we stop and lie down to get even colder?

If the instructor was suffering hypothermia, what she needed was a warm drink and warm dry
clothing, not to lie down in a plastic bag in some damp hollow. While the poly sack might keep out
the wind and rain it would make convection heat loss even worse.

You quite clearly have bugger all knowledge of waht you are talking about by your statements and
your own admission. Please tell me how you get convective heat loss from the top of a closed
survival bag.

Now look at heat of vapourisation of water. The biggest source of heat loss is due to wind chill,
especially if the subject is wet. Removing wind chill by using *any* form of shelter is preferable
to staying out in the wind and rain. If you are going to then reply that you were exercising and
staying warm I'd just like to remind you of what shivering is for.

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

C L Imber said:

(Chris Street) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is then a continuing problem you can either all sit it out and wait for the alarm to be
raised, or if the party is large enough you divide and send a group for help. With the tents so
close you ideally should have broken camp and brought shelter to the casualty.

Which direction should the group go for help? North, South, East or West.

If you'd had a GPS, you'd know. :-)

Quoted message said:

How do we find the tents? Should we have looked for them North, South, East or West?

If you'd had a GPS, you'd know. :-)

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

C L Imber said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Mountain Training Trust (MTT) recommend the following equipment for walking in the British
mountains in summer conditions:

<snip list>

<List put back in>

<list snipped again>

You really haven't grasped the concept of trimming posts yet, have you? It's really not necessary to
repeat everything, doing so wastes time and space.

Quoted message said:

I guess you could leave some of the items out - especially the extra spare fleeces and other items
of personal kit.

I could leave a lot of those items out, and I usually do. In particularly bad weather I might take
most of them, but that's rarely necessary in summer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't get me wrong, it's undoubtedly a very sensible list, but I've done the whole "carrying half
a ton of kit just in case" scenario and it's often overkill. That list of kit would help me
survive in the middle of winter! :-)

And what about the survival of the group for which you are responsible?

I'm not responsible for a group. I was just commenting on what I'd take. The first list was
"Personal Kit".

Quoted message said:

It may well be safe for you to walk in shorts, t-shirt, trainers and a couple of bars of choc, but
what about your group?

I haven't got a group. But on the rare occasion that I do walk with others, their equipment is their
business. They're adults, they're experienced, and I'm not "leading" them, it's a democracy.

Quoted message said:

No. They make no mention of carrying a wrist watch, yet I usually wear mine.

But the traditionalists clearly frown on the use of GPS. The huge number of objections to them and
endless attempts to dismiss their usefulness with countless weak arguments against them testify to
that. The fact is that the traditionalists feel themselves under threat from GPS. They don't want
traditional navigation methods to change so they take every opportunity to undermine the usefulness
of GPS. Maybe they're just scared of the technology because they don't understand it themselves.
Some people really hate change.

Quoted message said:

I thought about bringing it, but decided not to because the purpose of the exercise was to
navigate at night using a map and compass.

So you'd leave your first aid kit behind because having an accident was not part of the exercise?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm concerned that their traditionalist views are way out of date...

I think you overstate the case.

I'm not sure that I do. Have you seen how many arguments we've had about GPS here over the years?
Just do a search for GPS in Google Groups.

Quoted message said:

The MTT have the following to say about GPSs:

"As with all navigational aids, GPS should be regarded as one of the many tools for gathering the
necessary information. It should be remembers that the compass is rugged and will work with
virtually no maintenance in any conditions, whereas reliance solely on GPS could all too easily
let the navigator down.

See, this is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about! That paragraph indicates no more than a
grudging acceptance of it's usefulness, then proceeds to propagate the myth of unreliablity. And why
do they stress "reliance solely"? Nobody with any brains relies solely on a GPS. You take your map,
your compass *and* your GPS out with you. They're all useful and you stand the best chance of
successful navigation by having all three items at your disposal. No-one ever suggests using a
compass without a map, but the GPS detractors *always* criticise it as if you use it without a map,
which is just plain stupid.

As has been said here many times before;

It's not "GPS" vs. "Map and Compass, it's "Map and GPS" vs. "Map and Compass".

But far better to take all three if you want to be on the safe side.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But hang on a moment, did you say; "people's skill in using a map and compass"?

Quoted message said:

We were not Johnnie Townie and his girlfriend. We were a group of fairly experienced hillwalkers
learning to navigate at night by map and compass with an experienced and qualified instructor.

I'm sure you weren't, but the comment was that "people's" skill in using map and compass might be
undermined by using GPS. I didn't assume "people" to refer specifically to experienced hillwalkers.
Many people to be found on the hills on a hot summer's day are probaby not particularly experienced.
I would hazard a guess that few of them have any map and compass skills to begin with, so using a
GPS would not undermine them (how could it undermine skills that they don't have?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They can see the benefits of a GPS as a navigational aid.

If they can see the benefits, why don't they act on them?

How do you expect them to act? Should the BMC insist that all instructors buy a GPS and learn how
to use them?

Now that you mention it, yes, why not? That sounds like a very sensible idea to me. Anyone who earns
a living teaching navigation should know how to use one and should certainly be able to afford one,
it's not as if they're particularly expensive. Perhaps they should even be provided free of charge
to instructors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You don't have to be "qualified" to be able to tell that three navigational devices are better
than two. That's just plain common sense.

Not when the objective is to navigate without using a GPS.

That wasn't the point. The point was to take one in case of emergency, and also to record a track
for later study, thus enhancing the learning experience.

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

C L Imber said:

"Summer conditions" is not the same as "summer hillwalking".

They define summer conditions as, "any time of year when there is no likelihood of encountering
snow or ice".

Well that's a pretty stupid definition isn't it? That can cover practically the entire year around
these parts. Why not call it "Non-winter conditions" or "Three season conditions"?

Quoted message said:

I'm a primary school teacher. The young people who I may be taking into the mountains are up to
the age of 11.

You have very different requirements to me then.

Quoted message said:

Now, perhaps the hat and gloves and extra sweater can be dispensed with on a busy hill if the
forecast is good. But in general, the advice is sound.

In general yes, in order to err on the side of caution. But gloves *and* spare gloves is a bit over
the top isn't it?

Quoted message said:

Heavy rain showers can happen at the most unexpected moments in the British mountains.

Actually they can't, not if you know a thing or two about weather. The most unexpected moment for a
shower in the British mountains is when the whole country is covered by a large stationary high
pressure system, such as sometimes occurs during British summers. These are known as "heatwaves" and
they usually last for two to three weeks at a time.

High pressure systems are very slow moving. It will not rain in these conditions. Even if it does
move, it will probably take at least 3 or 4 days before a low pressure system can get close enough
to drop some rain on you, and that's if it's moving quickly. In such conditions you can safely go
out camping in the hills for a weekend without taking waterproofs with you.

But you have to recognise the conditions for what they are. Sunshine caused by a large stationary
high pressure system sitting on top of the UK is quite different to the brief spells of sunshine
that we frequently get between frontal systems. If you can't tell which sunshine is which, then take
your waterproofs, but if you know the difference, you won't always have to.

I used to religiously take my waterproofs with me on every trip to the hills in my younger days, but
no more. Even if I do get it wrong (when I take a blatant risk rather than being sure), a bit of
rain isn't going to kill me, as Roger said.

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Simon Challands said:

They are unnecessary. After all, people managed quite happily without them.

Oh, so we're going to start this argument again, are we? People always managed quite happily without
cars too, so let's not bother with those either. Same with computers, television, internet etc.

Quoted message said:

The only things that are necessary are your legs.

No they're not, not if you sit still all day and someone brings you your food.

Quoted message said:

That doesn't mean they aren't useful, though (not that I would bother spending money on either).

I know a lot of people who used to insist that they'd never buy a computer and had no use for the
internet. Now look at them...

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Paul Saunders said:

C L Imber said:

Quoted message said:

Have they taken out the 600m minimum height requirement then?

I haven't seen that figure quoted - 600m might count as a substantial summit in some mountainous
regions - but not in others.

I don't think it's a question of how substantial a summit is, but rather a measure of the type of
terrain and weather conditions that you get at that altitude. "Mountaincraft and Leadership" makes
a distinction between high and low ground at 500m, which equates with my experience. Most ground
above 500m tends to be wild, whereas lower ground is often farmed. There can be a signifcant
difference in weather conditions above 500m, not only a lower temperature but higher wind speeds
and often hill fog.

500m seems very arbitrary. I don't particularly like the book "Mountaincraft and Leadership". It
seems very dated to me.

What is important is that a range of terrain types and weather conditions are experienced as well as
group management - or at the very least, group experience.

"Norman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I have had several GPSs since 1992. While out walking I find them very useful and now only take a
compass for "backup" reasons. Using a suitable map (1:25000) I can identify my position with the
GPS and a roamer and move on to my next waypoint with the minimum of delay. As regards the people
who continually go on about maps and compass; I have long since regarded the majority of them as
being too frightened to express an honest opinion for fear of receiving the wrath of the
tradionalists who must by now have sore heads from being stuck in the sand so long. I have two
compasses with me. A Silva No 4 and a Thommen prismatic compass, total value of the two is about
£160. This amount would easily buy a GPS now. With GPS equipment being accurate to 15ft and
battery life now approaching 2 or more days continuous the concerns of the "stick in the mud
thinkers" are a thing of the past. Aircraft have relied on inertial navigation equipment for
years. Pilots carry maps charts as back up and to familiarise themselves with local situations.

I can't understand people's need to know exactly where they are to the nearest few metres under
normal everyday circumstances. Granted if I was in the position of taking responsibility for a group
of kids in the hills I'd probably take a GPS along as backup. (I think my girlfriend's still got an
early brick like model propping a door open somewhere). But generally so long as you're not in any
danger in that the weather's not horrendous and you're not going to be at risk of hypothermia,
wandering around lost in the mist for a bit can be a good experience.

Infact I've deliberately not looked at any maps of Scotland North of Torridon and plan sometime to
go there and just walk by following my nose without map, compass or indeed GPS. But then that's just
my idea of what the outdoors is all about and couldn't be recommended to anyone else.

Norman said:

Where there are no paths, gates, walls etc; it is almost impossible to navigate a course with any
degree of accuracy using a compass and drifting left or right of your desired course onto a
parallel one with a 100 to 300 metre discrepancy is a common resulting scenario.

I have to disagree with that statement. This scenario will only result if you aren't doing it
correctly. Even in featureless terrain (even a snowfield has some variation in the surface) it is
possible to walk on a bearing to within a degree or two. You don't wander along looking at the
needle, the correct method is to sight to a point walk to that point and repeat.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

(Norman) said:

Quoted message said:

This is the silly old myth that a GPS swolves all navigation problems to the extent that you can
simply follow it around blindly like playing a computer game.

Quoted message said:

Why not? All comercial pilots have to take Instrument Rating exams so they can fly planes in
cloud with only air traffic control radar advisory advice in addition to their interpretation of
the onboard aircraft instruments. This is carried out at aircraft speeds of up to 600mph (880 ft
per second)

By highly trained experts. And where being a dozen metres wrong won't slide you over a cliff or take
you down the wrong gully.

Quoted message said:

I am contemplating selling my expensive Thommen prismatic compass on Ebay as I never use it now.
Even my Silva compass is only used for its roamer.

What compass are you retaining as backup?
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Graham Seed said:

"C L Imber" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Graham
Ps, what's your real name?

Tom.

Welcome Tom! It's alright here on urw, don't be put off by the gps gang....I'm sure they don't go
the toilet without one in their back pocket :-))..........only joking lad(ie)s!

Its no joke.. Wish I had one the time I was holed up in an outhouse at Derry Lodge in a blizzard. It
was my turn to crawl through the window and get the water. Finding the burn was easy enough, but
getting back was another matter.

That was my run in with "lost at night" not for long though. Kept bouncing off the big moraine and
found the rescue hut, from there it was easy.

Richard Webb

Graham Seed said:

Welcome Tom! It's alright here on urw, don't be put off by the gps gang....I'm sure they don't go
the toilet without one in their back pocket :-))

Nah, no reception indoors. That's what the beer compass is for... ;-)

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Simon Challands said:

Quoted message said:

And what about the survival of the group for which you are responsible?

They should have responsibility for themselves IMO. It's the leader's responsibility to make sure
they don't all end up completely lost, or in technical situations they can't be expected to cope
with, or dead from exhaustion, but that's as far as it should go (although this isn't the case with
young children).

I'm glad you put in that last bit. I'm a teacher, I have a duty of care towards those I teach.

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:19:23 GMT, [email hidden] (Chris

Street) said:

Quoted message said:

Which direction should the group go for help? North, South, East or West.

Irrelevant to point in hand. If you don't know which way to go with a rescue party you surely don't
want to be doing the same with someone developing hypothermia. You sit and wait till morning in a
survival bag.

Quoted message said:

How do we find the tents? Should we have looked for them North, South, East or West?

Irrelevant to point in hand. If you don't know which way to go with a rescue party you surely don't
want to be doing the same with someone developing hypothermia. You sit and wait till morning in a
survival bag.

Quoted message said:

Who was the casualty?

You really need an answer to that one?

Hypothermia develops when the core body temperature starts to drop. Cold hands my be an indication
of developing hypothermia, but is not an indication that hypothermia is developping.

The MTT has the following to say about enforced nights out:

"Enforced nights out always feel longer and more miserable than ever anticipated. It is always
preferable to navigate off the hill unless injuries or equipment failure make this impractical. Back
at base, the group's contacts will be worried and may even initiate a rescue search, so walkers
should make every effort to evacuate themselves, unless this is genuinely felt to be a riskier
option than staying put."

So there you have it. Our instructor felt that staying put would be riskier than navigating
ourselves to safety. Had we stayed out, one or more of our party my well have developped
hypothermia. The fact that we all returned safely to camp is a credit to our instructor and the
cohesiveness of our party.

W. D. Grey said:

From your report your plan did not work - you were constantly somewhere other that where you
thought you should have been.

Until we found out where we were, by following a plan.

Quoted message said:

I never said that you should have used the GPS as a primary navigational aid on such an exercise,
but it could have been used in the situation you found youreslf - in your words LOST - then to get
a fix and then carry on with your map and compass exercise.

Indeed.