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Lost at Night

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 January 2004
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16 January 2004
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C L Imber
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  1. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It seems to me that not even taking a GPS (the leader) indicates a stubborn belief in the myth
    that map and compass are all powerful and a GPS is therefore unnecessary.

    Quoted message said:

    None of the instructor / assessors I dealt with had the attitude that you refer to above.

    Well that's good to hear. Maybe I'm just leaping to false conclusions based on some of the comments
    I've read in this newsgroup.

    Quoted message said:

    I do wonder sometimes if my conventional navigation skills would be as good if I had started using
    GPS earlier on in my hill going.

    You could argue the same with a compass, since there are lots of other ways of navigating. In fact,
    I rarely ever used a compass in my pre-GPS days, preferring to do most of my navigating with map
    alone. I usually found that a map provided all the information I needed for navigation, even in fog,
    just by studying contours and by following linear features like streams, walls and fences.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  2. Paul Saunders said:
    AndyP said:

    Anyhow, surely knowing that you only have to press a button to tell you where you are which way
    to walk following a series of predetermined waypoints deadens the spirit of the outdoors
    experience somewhat.

    No.

    For a start, just pressing a button won't do much at all, other than give you a grid ref.

    As for pre-determined waypoints, you have to predetermine them in advance. That requires map study
    and planning, which is a good thing anyway. In fact, I tend to spend more time studying the map and
    planning these days than I did before I got a GPS, and consequently have a better idea of the lay
    of the land of an unfamiliar area before I get there.

    As for following a series of such waypoints, that's called a route. I'm not overly fond of routes,
    they are restrictive. I prefer to enter useful waypoints covering the whole area. Even if I have a
    specific route in mind, having lots of extra waypoints gives me the flexibility to alter my route
    as I go. I often wander off course to have a look at something interesting that I've spotted or to
    chase a photo opportunity, and after having done so it sometimes makes no sense to continue on the
    previous route to I choose a new waypoint and modify my walk as I go.

    The advantage to having all these useful waypoints pre-plotted is that I don't have to stick to any
    predetermined route, I can modify it at will. And if I should do so in the dark or the fog I don't
    have to faff around with map and compass to ensure that I continually know where I am.

    The essense of traditional navigation is that you try to keep track of where you are (or at least
    where you're going) at all times, but the beauty of GPS navigation is that you don't have to know
    where you are. You can stop worrying about that aspect of it and easily get back on course no
    matter where you wander and how bad the visiblity is.

    So the idea of using a GPS to blindly follow a fixed route is a very unimaginative way of using
    one. On the contrary, with a good selection of well-chosen waypoints, it gives you the freedom to
    wander where you please and not bother about following any specific route at all. You use the
    waypoints as references to keep track of where you are, and you don't even have to walk to them.
    You can use the GOTO feature simply to tell you where a waypoint (reference point) is, i.e. how far
    and in which direction.

    GPS frees you from the restrictions of conventional navigation. It's a different way of navigating.
    You don't have to follow arrows blindy, you can go where you want. It's a tool that can give you
    reference points, not a machine that must be blindly obeyed.

    Paul


    Well put Paul, I totally agree.

    Norman

  3. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    As for pre-determined waypoints, you have to predetermine them in advance. That requires map study
    and planning, which is a good thing anyway. In fact, I tend to spend more time studying the map
    and planning these days than I did before I got a GPS, and consequently have a better idea of the
    lay of the land of an unfamiliar area before I get there.

    I'm not anti GPS in particular (apart from the fact that the one we've got weighs too much and eats
    batteries). I can see all their advantages if you want to know where you are or indeed *need to* to
    ensure adequate safety margins such as being responsible for a load of schoolkids or in the short
    days of a Scottish Winter and you're not prepared for a night out at 3000 feet.

    I'm more just anti navigation, map study and planning in general. Using maps and following a
    specified route is a relatively new concept for me and my dad still laughs at me when I get one
    out to sort out a new link up of bridleways to cycle between here and his place on. Growing up in
    the Forest of Dean we used to wander miles about the woods often not knowing exactly where we
    were but just relying on a vague sense of direction which way home was. And when I went to
    Sheffield I carried on wandering about the Peak District in the same way. I still do that for a
    lot of our walks.

    When I started walking the hills of Snowdonia, The Lake District and Scotland however my girlfriend
    introduced me to maps and guidebooks and as a novice in those scary areas of cliffs, mist and bad
    weather I naturally used them albeit only to plan a route and when it came to not being sure if I
    was going the right way. Now that I've got a few years experience of such terrain though I've
    started to think that using maps and guidebooks rob you of a sense of freedom and adventure. The few
    times when I've been temporarily lost in the mist without map and compass (or GPS) have been quite
    fun. There's a lot to be said for the follow your nose school of navigation.

    Go on, leave your GPS at home, drive up to Aviemore and go for a wander around the Cairngorm plateau
    in the mist. You know you want to.

    Oh, incidentally the last time I looked at our GPS was to try and use it to measure some of the
    routes I use for running but as far as I could tell without the instructions and before something
    good came on the telly it only seemed to measure the distance to the next waypoint and not a simple
    readout of the distance you've covered. Given it's quite an old model should this function be on
    there somewhere or is that a more recent feature? Early 90s Eagle Explorer I think it is if anyone's
    ever had one.

  4. AndyP said:

    There's a lot to be said for the follow your nose school of navigation.

    I agree - with certain reservations. If you are somewhere like the Forest of Dean then the chances
    are you can follow your nose to get back home without too much trouble. In certain areas of the
    Lakes or Scotland you could easily find your way blocked by a river that was far too deep or too
    fast to cross. Then there's the problem of ending up in the 'wrong' valley. A couple of hours in the
    dark correcting your route in Monmouthshire is not the same as finding your way back at night when
    you've wandered off Scafell Pike the wrong way. The MRT web pages are full of entries about people
    whose problem was caused or made worse by not knowing their location.

    --
    Paul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.com 114
    Wainwrights

    Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: justgiving.comlondon2004

  5. Chris Street said:
    Phil Cook said:


    Quoted message said:

    In 20 yrs time the compass will be as the slide rule or the logarithm book are to today, a bygone
    curiosity handed to a grandchild.

    Same with morse and signal flags.

    A point about morse - my instructor noted that you may only ever need to use morse once in your
    lifetime - but if you need it they you will *really* need it. I suspect that they same will come of
    the compass before too long but it doesn't mean we should stop learning how to use one.

    Quoted message said:


    I would like to think that I can use either compass or GPS to fall back on should the other fail.
    Aircraft and vessels at sea have to have multiple redundancy but it gets a bit heavy when you
    have to carry it.

    AIUI the emergency radio channels are no longer monitored for SOS broadcast in morse. Automatic
    emergency beacons have taken the place of manually keyed signals.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  6. (catrabbit) said:

    Can anybody tell me any good hills to walk up in Scotland.


    Try asking your lecturer why s/he has no idea what Netiquette is first.
    --
    79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
    looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

  7. "catrabbit" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Can anybody tell me any good hills to walk up in Scotland.

    Now if that had been put in between some of the exchanges between Mr. CL Imber and certain others it
    would have been a classic example of comedy timing. Still made me laugh though.

  8. "Gordon" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Yeaah sure! I have a 'smokeless' fuel and a log fire over Christmas and New Year and it is great
    for sucking cold air into the room, warming it, and blowing it up the chimney. :-)

    Fortunately the CH radiator in the hall makes it a bit more bearable...

    We had a holiday cottage in the Lake District once that was so cold we stayed outside and watched
    telly through the window.

  9. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:

    "Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Below which I think the word 'child' sufficeth. I have to say that I'm very relieved Mr CLImber
    isn't a primary school teacher round my way. I don't think I'd trust him with my teenagers, let
    alone my primary aged children.

    Didn't you let one of yours fall in a lake or something?

    Yes - into approx 3" of water. Strictly speaking he was already in the lake when he slipped, because
    he was happily paddling around the edge. Unfortunately for him and to my great amusement his foot
    slipped on - or rather off - a stone, and he knelt down rather suddenly. Thing is though, if I take
    my children out and something happens that's my problem. Had it been someone else's child I'd been
    in charge of I'd have had some explaining to do to the wet one's parents. I'm actually very easy
    going about things like that: child plays near water; child gets wet - just one of those things.
    Thing is, a lot of parents aren't like that, and the slightest thing upsets them and causes panic.
    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  10. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:
    Fran said:

    however your attitude in your original post was one of boastfulness, which will earn you the
    opposite of what you probably intended.

    That was not what I intended. I simply wanted to share my experiences.


    Fair enough.
    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  11. Roger Chapman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I used my GPS merely as a track record for a considerable time before I used it for as much as a
    go-to. Nowadays I do often put in summit waypoints when planning for a walk but I am still as
    likely as not to use the compass as the GPS. Nevertheless I feel less confident that I used to in
    my navigational skills and slightly anxious without a functioning GPS in situations where
    previously I would have been supremely confident.

    dude that's a big brother device get rid of it now

    14kt Yellow Gold 1.00 ctw Burmese Ruby and Diamond Ring

  12. Roger Chapman said:
    Quoted message said:

    What person, however experienced, would contemplate walking the Cuillin with 30 nine year olds?

    There you go again. You're not allowed to take 30 youngsters out on your own and the ML
    qualification is not confined to ministering just to such young charges. I am sure most 15 year old
    boys would enjoy the Cuillins experience and some might even live to tell the tale. :-)

    Who said anything about "on your own"?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh yes and I take it from your remark that you have never tried Stac Pollaidh.

    Quoted message said:

    You are quite correct.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd be surprised if 40 walks up Stac Pollaidh would count as sufficient experience. But one or
    two out of forty may very easily count.

    But would 40 bimbles up Tryfan be any more use?

    I'd be very surprised if it was.

    Once again I say, "A range of experiences are required".

    In that range of experiences, a *substantial summit* will usually be climbed.

    Quoted message said:

    The comparison is deliberate. Stac Polliagh takes much the same effort and has a more
    difficult summit.

  13. Roger Chapman said:

    Nevertheless I feel less confident that I used to in my navigational skills and slightly anxious
    without a functioning GPS in situations where previously I would have been supremely confident.

    Can't say I've noticed that, but then I never go out without a GPS these days.

    Quoted message said:

    Much like safety belts I suppose. When they first came out I found them useful to keep me in my
    seat on a bumpy road but they never persuaded me to drive any faster. Nowadays on the rare
    occasions I drive anything without seatbelts I find their lack (along with the lack of ABS)
    distinctly unsettling.

    So do I, but then I've never driven withouth safety belts. On my very first driving lesson I put it
    on, even though the instructor told me it wasn't compulsory.

    Quoted message said:

    Paul mentioned the dumbing down of arithmetic (calculators with everything) and I suspect that the
    same will be true with the GPS. With a short cut to mountain navigation many will not learn the
    basics and will be the poorer as a result.

    Very true. Much as I condone GPS use I still think that learning the fundamentals of navigation is
    very important.

    Quoted message said:

    Have said that I personally don't think using a GPS is a particularly easy option even with the
    assistance of a computer and planning a walk with one certainly isn't.

    Which is the other point, you have to learn how to use a GPS effectively too. So when are they going
    to start doing GPS navigation courses?

    Quoted message said:

    One can open a map and pick a viable route almost in an instant. Manually putting in the
    significant waymarks would be a pain and for most occasions a complete waste of time.

    I almost never do that. It's so much easier on a computer and too much of a hassle on the hill.
    Easiest of all is to upload a file full of significant waypoints covering an entire area, like the
    Brecon Beacons.

    Quoted message said:

    Where a GPS comes into its own is in thick clag but even then the time wasted in manually
    inserting a waypoint will not normally be saved by easier navigation.

    Which is why it's better to have all your waypoints pre-loaded.

    Quoted message said:

    Taking the position from the GPS and a compass bearing is quicker and simpler.

    If there's any risk of hill fog or night nav I always pre-load at least a few useful waypoints
    before I set out.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  14. Simon Challands said:

    Surprisingly easily done, considering how changeable the weather can be (hence "if it's pouring
    down with rain", to make it obvious from the outset). There are days when it's pretty safe not to
    bother taking water- proofs, but they are infrequent in the UK.

    Yes, very infrequent, but they do sometimes happen. Not usually worth taking the risk though.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  15. Graham Seed said:

    If I can bring in walking poles <d&rfc> here, using these (knee probs) has made me less
    comfortable on river crossings - where I crossed a river skipping from stone to stone I now cower
    on the bank and prod to see how deep it is!

    After plenty of riverbed activy last month I can confirm that the rocks can be very slippery indeed
    and walking poles very helpful. On one walk I didn't take the poles because I was carrying two
    tripods and the walking was extremely precarious. I nearly slipped and fell a number of times.

    Try skipping from stone to stone in those conditions and you'll slip off and have a boot full of
    water in no time. In fact, thinking back to my younger days I do remember getting boots full of
    water doing just that. It seems that the rocks were always as slippery.

    In fact, when approaching the Lower Ddwli Falls on the exceptionally slippery river bed, I
    remembered that it was just that slippery 20 years ago. It's not the rocks that have got slipperier
    as I've gotten older, it's just that I'm less inclined to take the same risks and I have the
    experience to know what might happen before it does. I did once slip and fall sideways when crossing
    a stream, but luckily my camera was on the other side of my belt.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  16. AndyP said:

    I'm more just anti navigation, map study and planning in general. Using maps and following a
    specified route is a relatively new concept for me

    I used to do that when I was younger. I regularly "explored" the Gower coast without a map, and even
    did the same with my first forays into the mountains of South Wales.

    Quoted message said:

    Now that I've got a few years experience of such terrain though I've started to think that using
    maps and guidebooks rob you of a sense of freedom and adventure.

    Freedom no, adventure perhaps, exploration definitely. Whilst exploring is fun it can often be very
    inefficient. You might find yourself walking though really difficult terrain when there's a
    perfectly good path 100m away, or you might walk miles into the middle of nowhere to pitch your tent
    in a really remote spot, only to find next morning that there's a main road nearby and busloads of
    people walking past your tent.

    The fact is that the UK has already been explored and mapped so you may as well take advantage of
    that. Sure it takes a lot of the mystery out of it, but efficient route planning is so much more,
    well, efficient! You can choose the optimum paths, avoid the difficult terrain and locate really
    remote spots to pitch your tent. It may be less adventurous, but the scenery is every bit as
    dramatic and the experience just as good.

    Getting lost, trudging across difficult terrain, making errors of various kinds and suffering
    various mishaps all contribute to interesting anecdotes later in life, but at the time they just
    aren't much fun, more a time consuming hassle or a really unpleasant experience. I've got plenty of
    anecdotes from my younger days and these days I'd prefer to avoid adding more, although that will
    undoubtedly continue to happen, because even with planning, experience, maps, GPS etc, things can
    still go wrong. The mountains are wild, dangerous places and the weather can be unpredictable and
    capricous. Even the most experienced walkers occasionally experience unplanned "adventures".

    As for maps and guidebooks robbing you of freedom, perhaps if you follow a walk exactly as it's laid
    out in a book, but I for one never do that. Even if I try to follow a route I always end up changing
    it. I always prefer to plan my own walks, but even those are subject to change. With a few rare
    exceptions I rarely ever do the exact walk that I plan to do. I almost always end up changing the
    route as I go, either due to unforseen circumstances (weather changes or out of date map features)
    or more often on a whim, depending on how I feel. I don't feel that my freedom to walk where I
    choose is compromised by setting out with the *intention* to walk a particular route. Nothing forces
    me to follow a route exactly if I don't want to.

    Quoted message said:

    Go on, leave your GPS at home, drive up to Aviemore and go for a wander around the Cairngorm
    plateau in the mist. You know you want to.

    No, the best advice is to wander around the Cairngorm plateau in the mist, but with a map in your
    rucksack and your GPS switched on recording your route. You can still enjoy getting totally lost if
    you want, but you'll have the vital equipment necessary to get you back if you really need it. You
    can also study the GPS track later to find out where you actually went, rather than never knowing.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, incidentally the last time I looked at our GPS was to try and use it to measure some of the
    routes I use for running but as far as I could tell without the instructions and before something
    good came on the telly it only seemed to measure the distance to the next waypoint and not a
    simple readout of the distance you've covered.

    My GPS (Garmin 12) does give a total distance, but that assumes that you walk in perfectly straight
    lines between waypoints, which rarely happens. For that to work you'd need very large numbers of
    waypoints in your route to closely follow all the twists and turns. Not only is this not possible in
    many GPS units (mine only allows 20 waypoints per route) but it's overkill anyway in practice. A
    small number of well chosen waypoints works better IMO. The exact path between key waypoints is
    usually irrelevant, so long as you get from one waypoint to the next it doesn't matter how much your
    path twists and turns in between.

    But to address the matter of measuring a route (not a GPS route), the best way is to use a track.
    The easiest is with software (OziExplorer, GPS Utility, Trackmaker? Anquet, Memory Map, Fugawi).
    Just draw a track on the map, following all the twists and turns, and it will tell you the distance.
    With Anquet and others it will even calculate your ascent and draw a route profile (along with a
    Naismith estimate of time taken).

    Alternatively you could simply walk the route with your GPS and record a track. The GPS will tell
    you how far you've walked if you initialise it before you go, but the track will usually give a more
    accurate measurement.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  17. W. D. Grey said:

    Well we do have clockwork radios :-)

    Wind-up GPSRs? The compass crowd certainly do enjoy winding up. ;-)

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  18. W. D. Grey said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    No matter how many you take, they will run out eventually, so unless some amazing battery
    technology is developed (where a GPS battery will last for 5 years of continuous use for
    example), there's always going to be a problem in that area, which may require some kind of non-
    electronic nav

    Quoted message said:

    Well we do have clockwork radios :-)

    Don't the clockwork radio folk now sell general purpose clockwork battery replacement units?

    The Russians also have a neat battery replacement unit which runs off the heat from a paraffin lamp,
    meant for powering radios in Siberia.

    And it wouldn't be hard to adapt a bicycle dynamo battery charger.

    H'ever, I sense a basic inconsistency here. There is no battery problem if you just switch the unit
    on for the occassional fix. The problem arises when you want a continuous tracklog of the trip that
    you can play with on your computer. And the battery demands of that are being used to cricitise
    GPSRs for using too many batteries, so we ought to keep up our non-electronic nav skills -- which
    you can't make computer-readable continuous tracklogs with anyway!

    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  19. "AndyP" +

    Quoted message said:

    "Gordon" wrote" + AndyP" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Yeaah sure! I have a 'smokeless' fuel and a log fire over


    Christmas

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and New Year and it is great for sucking cold air into the room,


    warming

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it, and blowing it up the chimney. :-)

    Fortunately the CH radiator in the hall makes it a bit more


    bearable...

    C'mon! Your fire must be naff then cos mine makes the cottage toasty! Mind you, I'm moving house in
    two weeks......and that one's got a wood burner!! :-)

    Quoted message said:


    We had a holiday cottage in the Lake District once that was so cold


    we

    Quoted message said:

    stayed outside and watched telly through the window.


    Lol...you should have gone camping.

    G

  20. "Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Didn't you let one of yours fall in a lake or something?

    Quoted message said:

    Yes - into approx 3" of water. Strictly speaking he was already in the lake when he slipped,
    because he was happily paddling around the edge. Unfortunately for him and to my great amusement
    his foot slipped on - or rather off - a stone, and he knelt down rather suddenly. Thing is though,
    if I take my children out and something happens that's my problem. Had it been someone else's
    child I'd been in charge of I'd have had some explaining to do to the wet one's parents. I'm
    actually very easy going about things like that: child plays near water; child gets wet - just one
    of those things. Thing is, a lot of parents aren't like that, and the slightest thing upsets them
    and causes panic.

    Good for you. I think kids ought to be encouraged to be reckless. When he gets a bit older try
    giving him a 3 foot square piece of polystyrene and pointing him in the direction of your local
    river. My mum cried when I told her I'd happily travelled a mile or so down the River Wye like that.
    But then again I can't swim so perhaps that's understandable.

    Seriously, I think my freerange childhood enabled me to learn a lot about myself and, going back
    to walking in the hills, gave me the ability and confidence to cope with potential difficulties
    like getting lost, benighted, crossing swollen streams, scrambling up rocks or down loose
    ground, etc, etc.

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