Question on Calories

tcomeau said:

If that were true then anyone who wanted to be thin and
followed the low-fat/low-calorie diet would be thin.
Period. But that ain't the case, is it?

They do low-fat but NOT low calorie. Still parroting the
same jabberwocky.

Quoted message said:

Has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics. It is
several levels removed from the laws of thermo. Applying
the laws of thermo to weight control is extreme
oversimplification and sheer stupid assumption.

And we get get to outer space by soaring on air currents.

Quoted message said:

Then show me ONE!

Why, you wil simply claim it's a conspiracy to hold your
fabricated position.

Quoted message said:

Otherwise Shut the f... up.

You can always tell when TC is backed in a corner, he
resorts to mature scientic language.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Why would you try to lose fat if you are not body building?
A weight liter usually need the extra bulk for the power and
support of the structure.

Subcutaneous fat is the fat in the muscle tissue that makes
the muscle massive. When you try to "cut-up" you lose much
of this fat and the muscle size diminishes.

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Pizza Girl said:

Bodybuilders will disagree with you vehemently on that
one. Of course,

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lose much subcutaneous fat also from their muscle mass
when in the "sculpting" phase which can account for much
of their muscle mass loss.

I'm a weight-lifter (not a bodybuilder, that's about
strutting, I'm about lifting heavy things.) I absolutely
do NOT understand what you mean. Yes, I am losing
subcutaneous fat. But that is NOT part of my muscle mass
loss. That's fat loss.

I've got three kinds of fat - brown fat (tends to be on my
thighs), organ fat (nestled around my organs) and
subcutaneous fat. I'm finding that it's quite a trick to
partition where the fat loss comes from. (I've had plenty
of practice losing 65 pounds.) The absolute truth is that
it will come from lean body mass at least equally (if not
preferentially) if you go into starvation mode and aren't
doing resistance training. That's because you body wants
to dump the metabolic hogs when you're starving, i.e.,
waste the muscles.

I've been hypocaloric for something like 22 months now. I
lose lean body mass unless I use it. I'm down 55 pounds
of fat and 10 pounds of muscle and that ratio is a
testament to my weight-training and the slow rate at
which I'm losing.

Quoted message said:

This is a problem with people dieting and not doing
weight bearing

exercises

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to compensate. They lose as much muscle mass as they do
fat and when regaining their weight are left with lower
metabolisms muchly due to

less

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

muscle mass.

Yup.

Dally

Pizza Girl said:

There are fat people everywhere proving your statement
incorrect.

There are no such people. Put them on a hypocaloric diet
under controlled conditions, and they will lose weight.
There have never been any exceptions.

Quoted message said:

Most people cannot do it for a required length of time.

Perhaps so, but the fact remains that as long as their diet
is hypocaloric, they'll lose weight.

Quoted message said:

When will you basement diet specialists get over
yourselves and realize dieting/losing weight takes a lot
of psychology to make it work?

Maybe it does, but the first step in that psychology is
recognizing one hard fact: you have to eat less than you
burn in order to lose weight. This is what a great many fat
people refuse to accept. They want to overeat _and_ lose
weight, and that cannot happen. They'll accept any quack
science that says that calories don't matter, but they'll
reject the one proven reality, which says that calories _do_
matter, always.

--
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me directly.

Pizza Girl said:

Another error in logic. Your body will burn off
proteins and use up minerals from the bones and deplete
other organs.

It will burn fat as well, and it burns fat faster than it
burns anything else. I simplified for brevity, even though I
knew that someone would probably try to divert attention
from the harsh reality by bringing up details.

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me directly.

Tim Tyler said:

Maybe a /little/ bit if fat is really hard to come by.

You need 30 g or so of protein per day to replace protein
lost through "wear and tear," so you should continue to
consume protein even on a hypocaloric diet. Also, protein
can provide glucose, which is important in the initial
stages of a fast.

However, all of this applies mainly to fasting and severely
hypocaloric diets. If you reduce your calorie intake by 200
or 500 kcal per day, and you continue to eat a balanced
diet, you don't have to worry about loss of protein or bone
mass or anything like that. You'll just lose fat.

Quoted message said:

Normally, body fat is the first thing to be burned.

It's the primary energy store of the body. As soon as the
glucose and glycogen run out (in about a day, if you don't
eat), the fat starts to go.

--
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me directly.

Pizza Girl said:

Bodybuilders will disagree with you vehemently on
that one.

Bodybuilders generally don't know anything about nutrition.
They hardly even know anything about muscles. Like many
athletes, they depend a lot on superstition and urban
legend, and much less on science.

But normal people trying to lose weight are not
bodybuilders, so that doesn't matter.

Quoted message said:

This is a problem with people dieting and not doing
weight bearing exercises to compensate. They lose as much
muscle mass as they do fat and when regaining their
weight are left with lower metabolisms muchly due to less
muscle mass.

There's nothing wrong with this. The less weight you carry,
the less muscle you need, so you lose the muscle that isn't
required to carry the weight. The lower metabolism is
normal, too, because you have less body mass to feed.

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Pizza Girl said:

Why would you try to lose fat if you are not body
building?

Because obesity is a serious health hazard.

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me directly.

Pizza Girl <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

Quoted message said:

Why would you try to lose fat if you are not body
building? [...]

Most of the millions of folks on diets are doing it to lose
fat tissue.

Basically, too much fat predisposes you to many illnesses -
and makes you look and feel unhealthy and unfit.
--
__________
|im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.orgOpen ↗ [email hidden] Remove
lock to reply.

The most important thing about losing weight is to stop
being a moronic troll and also to stop feeding them.

Mxmaniac off

"Mxsmanic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pizza Girl said:

There are fat people everywhere proving your statement
incorrect.

There are no such people. Put them on a hypocaloric diet
under controlled conditions, and they will lose weight.
There have never been any exceptions.

Quoted message said:

Most people cannot do it for a required length of time.

Perhaps so, but the fact remains that as long as their
diet is hypocaloric, they'll lose weight.

Quoted message said:

When will you basement diet specialists get over
yourselves and realize dieting/losing weight takes a lot
of psychology to make it work?

Maybe it does, but the first step in that psychology is
recognizing one hard fact: you have to eat less than you
burn in order to lose weight. This is what a great many
fat people refuse to accept. They want to overeat _and_
lose weight, and that cannot happen. They'll accept any
quack science that says that calories don't matter, but
they'll reject the one proven reality, which says that
calories _do_ matter, always.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to
reach me directly.

You cannot carry on a conversation can you? Try more
Ritalin. You may get on better. Try to focus between the
beginning of a sentence and the end. A sentence usually
means one idea or concept and you appear to have trouble
with that concept.

"Mxsmanic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pizza Girl said:

Another error in logic. Your body will burn off proteins
and use up

minerals

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from the bones and deplete other organs.

It will burn fat as well, and it burns fat faster than it
burns anything else. I simplified for brevity, even though
I knew that someone would probably try to divert attention
from the harsh reality by bringing up details.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to
reach me directly.

Mxsmanic said:

Pizza Girl said:

There are fat people everywhere proving your statement
incorrect.

There are no such people. Put them on a hypocaloric diet
under controlled conditions, and they will lose weight.
There have never been any exceptions.

Quoted message said:

Most people cannot do it for a required length of time.

Perhaps so, but the fact remains that as long as their
diet is hypocaloric, they'll lose weight.

Hrmn, well. I don't know about that. There's me, and while I
am certainly weird, I am probably not the only one. Even if
I am the only one, one case is enough to disprove your
blanket assertion.

If I drop my calories I (sequentially):

(1) start to feel extremely bad
(2) get invaded by a virus
(3) develop an irregular heartbeat
(4) start fainting

...all without having lost any weight.

At this point, I go back to eating normally because the
fainting distresses my husband. It looks to me like whatever
hormone it is that says "get some fuel out of storage" isn't
working for me. (What is it? Glucagon? I haven't looked this
stuff up in years.)

Anyway, just because you are fortunate enough to have all
your bodily systems working properly, don't assume that is
the case for everyone.

--
- Laurel * * * amberdine.comamberdine.comOpen ↗

Laurel Amberdine said:

There's me, and while I am certainly weird, I am probably
not the only one.

You are not an exception to the rule.

Quoted message said:

If I drop my calories I (sequentially):

(1) start to feel extremely bad
(2) get invaded by a virus
(3) develop an irregular heartbeat
(4) start fainting

...all without having lost any weight.

Whatever this may be, it has nothing to do with weight loss.

If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you will
lose weight.

Quoted message said:

At this point, I go back to eating normally because the
fainting distresses my husband. It looks to me like
whatever hormone it is that says "get some fuel out of
storage" isn't working for me.

Your symptoms are suggestive of pathology. You should
consult a physician and describe your history in detail.
Viral infections, arrythmias, and syncope are not normal
consequences of a hypocaloric diet ... even fasting does not
normally produce these symptoms.

Quoted message said:

What is it? Glucagon? I haven't looked this stuff up
in years.

Defects in glucose metabolism (such as diabetes mellitus and
chronic or acute hypoglycemic episodes) can produce symptoms
similar to yours. These are serious conditions that must be
investigated medically, by a doctor.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, just because you are fortunate enough to have all
your bodily systems working properly, don't assume that is
the case for everyone.

No matter what bodily systems you may have that are not
working, you will still lose weight on a hypocaloric diet.
There is no pathological condition that can prevent this.

Some pathological conditions can interfere with weight gain
on a hypercaloric diet, but nothing can stop weight loss on
a hypocaloric diet.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach
me directly.

Mxsmanic said:

Laurel Amberdine said:

There's me, and while I am certainly weird, I am probably
not the only one.

You are not an exception to the rule.

Oh good. Then I shouldn't have any problems.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I drop my calories I (sequentially):

(1) start to feel extremely bad
(2) get invaded by a virus
(3) develop an irregular heartbeat
(4) start fainting

...all without having lost any weight.

Whatever this may be, it has nothing to do with
weight loss.

Then... why does it only happen when I either increase my
exercise or decrease my calories? And why does it only occur
when I cannot lose weight? (In the past I have been able to
succesfully drop fat. This situation only occurs when I am
unusually stressed.)

Quoted message said:

If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you will
lose weight.

There may be another option. I agree that someone cannot
exist without using energy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At this point, I go back to eating normally because the
fainting distresses my husband. It looks to me like
whatever hormone it is that says "get some fuel out of
storage" isn't working for me.

Your symptoms are suggestive of pathology. You should
consult a physician and describe your history in detail.
Viral infections, arrythmias, and syncope are not normal
consequences of a hypocaloric diet ... even fasting does
not normally produce these symptoms.

I know. I didn't say it was normal, only that it happened.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is it? Glucagon? I haven't looked this stuff up
in years.

Defects in glucose metabolism (such as diabetes mellitus
and chronic or acute hypoglycemic episodes) can produce
symptoms similar to yours. These are serious conditions
that must be investigated medically, by a doctor.

I've seen my doctor very recently. I appear to be extremely
healthy (except for my being too fat, which the doctor
doesn't seem very concerned about, bah.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, just because you are fortunate enough to have all
your bodily systems working properly, don't assume that
is the case for everyone.

No matter what bodily systems you may have that are not
working, you will still lose weight on a hypocaloric diet.
There is no pathological condition that can prevent this.

Really? It must be nice to know everything.

--
- Laurel * * * amberdine.comamberdine.comOpen ↗

LA...this guy is trolling for bites here. He has rolled his
argument several times. He is either trolling for
attention or a complete idiot.

You decide. I have killfiltered him won't see him anymore
except for when you repeat his garbage.

Thanx for understanding.

"Laurel Amberdine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Mxsmanic said:

Laurel Amberdine said:

There's me, and while I am certainly weird, I am
probably not the only one.

You are not an exception to the rule.

Oh good. Then I shouldn't have any problems.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I drop my calories I (sequentially):

(1) start to feel extremely bad
(2) get invaded by a virus
(3) develop an irregular heartbeat
(4) start fainting

...all without having lost any weight.

Whatever this may be, it has nothing to do with
weight loss.

Then... why does it only happen when I either increase my
exercise or decrease my calories? And why does it only
occur when I cannot lose weight? (In the past I have been
able to succesfully drop fat. This situation only occurs
when I am unusually stressed.)

Quoted message said:

If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you will
lose weight.

There may be another option. I agree that someone cannot
exist without using energy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At this point, I go back to eating normally because the
fainting distresses my husband. It looks to me like
whatever hormone it is that says "get some fuel out of
storage" isn't working for me.

Your symptoms are suggestive of pathology. You should
consult a physician and describe your history in detail.
Viral infections, arrythmias, and syncope are not normal
consequences of a hypocaloric diet ... even fasting does
not normally produce these symptoms.

I know. I didn't say it was normal, only that it happened.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is it? Glucagon? I haven't looked this stuff up in
years.

Defects in glucose metabolism (such as diabetes mellitus
and chronic or acute hypoglycemic episodes) can produce
symptoms similar to yours. These are serious conditions
that must be investigated medically, by a doctor.

I've seen my doctor very recently. I appear to be
extremely healthy (except for my being too fat, which the
doctor doesn't seem very concerned about, bah.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, just because you are fortunate enough to have
all your bodily systems working properly, don't assume
that is the case for everyone.

No matter what bodily systems you may have that are not
working, you will still lose weight on a hypocaloric
diet. There is no pathological condition that can
prevent this.

Really? It must be nice to know everything.

--
- Laurel * * * amberdine.comamberdine.comOpen ↗

Pizza Girl said:

LA...this guy is trolling for bites here. He has rolled
his argument several times. He is either trolling for
attention or a complete idiot.

You decide. I have killfiltered him won't see him anymore
except for when you repeat his garbage.

Thanx for understanding.

Ah, sorry for dragging it on. I have reached my quota of
contentious posts anyhow. 🙂

--
- Laurel * * * amberdine.comamberdine.comOpen ↗

Laurel Amberdine said:

I've seen my doctor very recently. I appear to be
extremely healthy (except for my being too fat, which the
doctor doesn't seem very concerned about, bah.)

Then maybe you should define what you consider fat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, just because you are fortunate enough to have all
your bodily systems working properly, don't assume that
is the case for everyone.

Then you better find a better/another doctor because you
do have a problem. You can be as smug as you like but if
your condition is such that the modification to exercise
or food causes fainting, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. Then again
you never said what or how much food you eliminated or how
much exercise.

Quoted message said:

Really? It must be nice to know everything.

Seems like you hiding from the facts or trying to justify
your excess weight or just busting chops with silly dialog.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese said:

Laurel Amberdine said:

I've seen my doctor very recently. I appear to be
extremely healthy (except for my being too fat, which the
doctor doesn't seem very concerned about, bah.)

Then maybe you should define what you consider fat.

Sorry, I'm being too flip. I did actually want help (which
was why I began the other thread). I just get annoyed when
people make blanket statements about knowing *everything*.

Um, too fat? About 75 lbs overweight, as far as I can tell.
Even considering possible error, there's still some
significant fat to lose.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Anyway, just because you are fortunate enough to have
>all your bodily systems working properly, don't assume
>that is the case for everyone.

Then you better find a better/another doctor because you
do have a problem.

I have LOTS of problems. I've managed to control some of
them. This doctor is as helpful as any I've found in many
years of searching.

I only mentioned to him the fact that I keep coming down
with a cold every time I try to lose weight. I don't let
it get further than that anymore. He suggested drinking
more water. :p

Quoted message said:

You can be as smug as you like but if your condition is
such that the modification to exercise or food causes
fainting, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. Then again you never said
what or how much food you eliminated or how much
exercise.

See other thread for brief details. I didn't want to get
into a great long summary of my habits if no one had any
ideas or wanted to discuss it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Really? It must be nice to know everything.

Seems like you hiding from the facts or trying to
justify your excess weight or just busting chops with
silly dialog.

I just spent too much time online today and I'm cranky.
Sorry. (BTW, I remember you from rec.running. Hi!)

--
- Laurel * * * amberdine.comamberdine.comOpen ↗

Laurel Amberdine said:

Oh good. Then I shouldn't have any problems.

Not for losing weight, no. If you eat less than you burn,
you'll lose weight, just like everyone else.

Quoted message said:

Then... why does it only happen when I either increase my
exercise or decrease my calories?

I don't know. Ask a doctor. It could be an endocrine
disorder, it could be heart disease ... it could be lots of
things. But whatever it is, you'll still lose weight on a
hypocaloric diet. Everyone does.

Quoted message said:

And why does it only occur when I cannot lose weight?

If you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will ALWAYS
lose weight.

Quoted message said:

There may be another option.

There are no other options. You cannot eat less than you
burn without losing weight. If you don't take in enough fuel
to keep your body running, your body will burn fat (mostly)
to get the fuel it needs. If you have no fat to burn, you'll
die of starvation very quickly if you don't eat all the
calories you need.

Quoted message said:

I know. I didn't say it was normal, only that it happened.

So see your doctor.

Quoted message said:

I've seen my doctor very recently. I appear to be
extremely healthy (except for my being too fat, which the
doctor doesn't seem very concerned about, bah.)

And what did he say about all these symptoms?

Being too fat can cause a world of problems. Your doctor may
simply have assumed that you won't be able to stick to a
diet, so there's no point in suggesting one. Or your extra
weight is slight enough that it isn't a health risk.

Quoted message said:

Really?

Guaranteed.

Quoted message said:

It must be nice to know everything.

I wouldn't know. But I do know that physical systems obey
certain laws, and among those are the laws of
thermodynamics, and these laws govern weight loss. If you
eat less than you burn, you lose weight, and that is
absolute, no exceptions.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach
me directly.

Laurel Amberdine said:

Sorry, I'm being too flip. I did actually want help (which
was why I began the other thread). I just get annoyed when
people make blanket statements about knowing *everything*.

Nobody has made any such statements in this thread.

Quoted message said:

Um, too fat? About 75 lbs overweight, as far as I can
tell. Even considering possible error, there's still some
significant fat to lose.

It's also a significant health risk.

Quoted message said:

I only mentioned to him the fact that I keep coming down
with a cold every time I try to lose weight. I don't let
it get further than that anymore.

What do you mean when you say "I don't let it get further"?

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach
me directly.

Laurel Amberdine said:

I just spent too much time online today and I'm cranky.
Sorry. (BTW, I remember you from rec.running. Hi!)

Hi and it's not that I have never been considered cranky
either, ask TC. 🙂 I simply find it hard to believe there
isn't something amiss. I sense your frustration and don't
want you to accept this food exercise relationship i.e.
excess weight as your fate. I at least hope your doctor is
an alleged (my choice of words) specialist and not a garden
variety GP although the suggestion to drink more water
leaves me arid. I would at least expect an instant 5 pound
loss from the lab people pulling blood searching for an
explanation.

A dear friend had lymes and it took her doctor 9 months to
diagnose even after she insisted she only started having
problems after she got the lymes shot. I'm suggesting that
if your current doctor's final answer is to drink more
water, then look for another opinion. Good luck!!!

The sad part, there used to be a set of MD's hanging out
here that would lend some thoughts or direction but most of
them have left cajoled by the quacks with agendas and no
science. You might try sci.med for a lead. Hopefully the
quacks haven't taken over that group.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]