Cycle Shoes

Velvet said:

Peter Clinch said:

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill
is better as you
can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal induced shimmy,
just roll along and get used to moving with one hand on
the bars only. Are there really no bits of road (or
playground, or field, or carpark) that don't fit the
bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if you're
cycling 50 milers that gives you a 20 mile radius to find
somewhere okay).

Yep, I can't think of anywhere around here that's flat
(it's all hills and valleys, the car parks are generally
24/7 places, and after dark contain a different hazard -
that of the boy racer), w

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone Valley
Road in Caterham is flat for about a mile or so and not
busy. Why don't you take your bike there?
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He is not only dull
himself, he is the cause of dullness in others." -Samuel
Johnson www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping,
usually the less dominant leg.

I undo the one I like to put down, which is left by default.
I've been trying to get more ambidextrous and it's actually
quite odd putting the other foot down, pedalling off with
the one that's usually down and so on. On a bike where I
need to come off the saddle, unclip a little in advance and
step down onto the road with the still-clipped-in foot at 6
o'clock where it's a completely stable platform to rest on
as you step the other down and come forward from the saddle.
Putting both feet down just makes life more difficult
AFAICT, certainly when it comes to setting off again.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping,
usually the less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable habit
will always put my right foot down. I mormally put my right
hand down as the camber of the road makes it easier, but
will use the left if there's railings or a handy kerb. When
taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll use
either foot.

I must be a freak.

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Peter Clinch said:

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill
is better as you

Quoted message said:

can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal induced shimmy,
just roll along and get used to moving with one hand on
the bars only. Are there really no bits of road (or
playground, or field, or carpark) that don't fit the
bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if you're
cycling 50 milers that gives you a 20 mile radius to find
somewhere okay).

Yep, I can't think of anywhere around here that's flat
(it's all hills and valleys, the car parks are generally
24/7 places, and after dark contain a different hazard -
that of the boy racer), w

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone
Valley Road in Caterham is flat for about a mile or so and
not busy. Why don't you take your bike there?

Because for a start there are punishing hills between me and
it, unless I cycle along the A22, which means tangling with
lots of traffic on a narrow road, the bulk of which persists
in exceeding the speed limits and passing far too close.

It is a good idea though to practise like you're saying, I
just seem to get into the mindset of wanting to keep the
speed up when out on roads with (even occcasional) traffic,
and I'm generally not just pootling along (my bike makes me
want to cycle faster and faster). I can scratch my nose
briefly with my right hand, but not the left (the left
always was more of a problem). Only while coasting, and
with the top tube gripped between knees. And whilst going
in roughly a straight line. Over non-[censored] tarmac. If I'm
actually in the situation where signalling would be good,
I'm already more tense simply due to the fact there's a
turn I'm going to have to make, might have to stop, what's
the traffic doing around me, is there a gap, how close am I
to the junction, where do I need to be on the road, where's
the traffic now, am I in the right gear, am I going to need
the brakes...

With that lot rattling through my head the LAST thing I want
to do is take my hands off the bars and stick my arm out (or
scratch my nose!), thus losing 50% of my brake/gear control,
removing the ability to pedal and thus gain speed, not to
mention losing the ability to steer - all of which I count
as rather necessary things to be able to do whilst
attempting to negotiate something along with other traffic.

I'm happy with the progress I'm making, given how often I
ride the bike (not often but normally long stints when I
do). I know it takes practice, and when I feel comfortable
doing it then I will take a hand off the bars for a moment.
I won't be rushed though - I stay more relaxed if I do it
while cycling, rather than specifically practising, which
leads to being tense and all the problems that brings.
Things work if I'm relaxed on the bike, swooping turns,
higher speeds, leaning in corners... if I'm tense it all
goes to pot and I'm perched on the bike, feeling it wiggling
underneath me, unsure of making the next corner or how much
road I'll need to get round it (I tend to run wide
sometimes).

I often think if you've never been a nervous cyclist, or
left those days behind many years ago, you forget just how
much of an impact it makes to the rideability of a bike, and
how much a small hiccup can make to your confidence. I'm
still pulling myself out of that stage, but I can look back
on when I first got this strange, alien, bike, and see I've
improved lots.

--

Velvet

Michael MacClancy said:

Perhaps you shouldn't be bothering with clipless at the
moment. You seem to have enough problems with other, much
more fundamental, skills. For instance, I think you really
do need to learn to put down just one foot (and always the
same foot) whenever you stop. I simply can't remember when
I have ever put down the 'other' foot - in 30 years or
more of cycling on bikes with and without clipless pedals.

Indeed, and I'm quite happy not bothering with clipless for
the moment
:-) I think it was others who suggested I *should*,
:certainly not I - I
then went on to explain *why* that was the case :-) I get
into bad problems if I put down the *wrong* foot when
stopping, putting down my left is the foot of choice, and
normally works fine, unless I stop suddenly (emergency stop,
or an aborted start) in which case normally it ends up with
*both* since I have no time to control or determine which
way the bike and I will lean toward. Stopping still requires
some degree of thought to examine the camber/edge of road
and determine where to actually aim to stop. Not *quite*
instinctive yet, but a whole load better than it used to be!

Road camber catches me out sometimes though with the
left, bike ends up being on much higher ground that my
foot, which leads to much hopping and attempts to not
fall over sideways!

--

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping,
usually the less dominant leg.

I undo the one I like to put down, which is left by
default. I've been trying to get more ambidextrous and
it's actually quite odd putting the other foot down,
pedalling off with the one that's usually down and so on.
On a bike where I need to come off the saddle, unclip a
little in advance and step down onto the road with the still-clipped-
in foot at 6 o'clock where it's a completely stable
platform to rest on as you step the other down and come
forward from the saddle. Putting both feet down just makes
life more difficult AFAICT, certainly when it comes to
setting off again.

Pete.

Er, yes, sorry, perhaps you misunderstood :-) I only put one
down (the left). However, I want the right free of any
restrictions, so that *if* the worst happens (as it has) and
I actually misjudged something and need to put the right
down to prevent falling sideways *that* way, I can do so
without having to disengage it from anything.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone
Valley Road in Caterham is flat for about a mile or so
and not busy. Why don't you take your bike there?

Because for a start there are punishing hills between me
and it, unless I cycle along the A22, which means
tangling with lots of traffic on a narrow road, the bulk
of which persists in exceeding the speed limits and
passing far too close.

I actually meant that you should take the bike in the car
(or on the train?)
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I've just learned about
his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial." - Irvin S.
Cobb www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping,
usually the less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable habit
will always put my right foot down. I mormally put my
right hand down as the camber of the road makes it easier,
but will use the left if there's railings or a handy kerb.
When taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll
use either foot.

The leg you put down should generally depend on which side
of the traffic you are.

I've taken to learning how to put my right foot down to
adapt to cycling on the continent, and the hardest part is
learning to clip the right foot in on the go.

Quoted message said:

I must be a freak.

Well, we knew that! :-)
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, the bottoms of valleys are flat. The Harestone
Valley Road in Caterham is flat for about a mile or so
and not busy. Why don't you take your bike there?

Because for a start there are punishing hills between me
and it, unless I cycle along the A22, which means
tangling with lots of traffic on a narrow road, the bulk
of which persists in exceeding the speed limits and
passing far too close.

I actually meant that you should take the bike in the car
(or on the train?)

Oh! No, I have no car at the moment, train - that might
work, yes, but seems an expensive way to do it (I have no
car because I also have no job, though hopefully both of
those will be changing state in the next couple of weeks, at
which point of course, I will then have no time LOL)

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Er, yes, sorry, perhaps you misunderstood :-) I only put
one down (the left). However, I want the right free of any
restrictions, so that *if* the worst happens (as it has)
and I actually misjudged something and need to put the
right down to prevent falling sideways *that* way, I can
do so without having to disengage it from anything.

I don't think he misunderstood. I think you need to find a
flat road or carpark and practice stopping and starting,
concentrating on only putting down your left foot, until you
persuade yourself that it's never necessary to put down your
right one. You will learn to control the bike so that you
only ever need to put down the left foot.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear
for music." - Billy Wilder www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Mark South said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2gh06vF2kdqtU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Michael MacClancy said:

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping,
usually the less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable habit
will always put my right foot down. I mormally put my
right hand down as the camber of the road makes it
easier, but will use the left if there's railings or a
handy kerb. When taking off afterwards (or starting the
trike) I'll use either foot.

The leg you put down should generally depend on which side
of the traffic you are.

Why? What book's that in?

An American book I have says you should put down your left
foot but probably forgets that some people have a dominant
left leg and would rather put down their right foot.
Anyway, my book obviously relates the foot to 'handedness'
and not traffic.

--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has no enemies, but
is intensely disliked by his friends." -Oscar Wilde
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

Velvet said:

Oh! No, I have no car at the moment, train - that might
work, yes, but seems an expensive way to do it (I have no
car because I also have no job, though hopefully both of
those will be changing state in the next couple of weeks,
at which point of course, I will then have no time LOL)

I saw that LOL but did think, before seeing this post, that
you do seem to be building your own barriers to progress.

--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear
for music." - Billy Wilder www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Er, yes, sorry, perhaps you misunderstood :-) I only put
one down (the left). However, I want the right free of any
restrictions, so that *if* the worst happens (as it has)
and I actually misjudged something and need to put the
right down to prevent falling sideways *that* way, I can
do so without having to disengage it from anything.

I don't think he misunderstood. I think you need to find a
flat road or carpark and practice stopping and starting,
concentrating on only putting down your left foot, until
you persuade yourself that it's never necessary to put
down your right one. You will learn to control the bike so
that you only ever need to put down the left foot.

I'm happy that it doesn't often go wrong - unless I have to
do a very sharp stop, or as I said, abort a start - but
because of those two instances, I would not be happy
initially at only unclipping one side.

I don't put my right foot down when I stop at all, unless
something has Gone Wrong - but that doesn't mean I don't
want to retain the ability to, should I deem it necessary.

Clipping back in that one side would only take a moment, so
it shouldn't be a big problem that I want to do it that way.
It would make me feel safer, reduce the stress levels, and
thus make the whole exercise easier, when I come to try
clipless - which means the greatest chance of succeeding
with them without scaring myself silly ;-)

--

Velvet

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Oh! No, I have no car at the moment, train - that might
work, yes, but seems an expensive way to do it (I have no
car because I also have no job, though hopefully both of
those will be changing state in the next couple of weeks,
at which point of course, I will then have no time LOL)

I saw that LOL but did think, before seeing this post,
that you do seem to be building your own barriers to
progress.

Not really, but I know how badly I react to being pushed
along to do things too fast - it all leads to tense
frustrated failure. Far better for me to do it at my own
steady pace (which a lot of people regard as similar to a
snail, I might add!)

I've found the key to making progress riding this bike is to
be relaxed about it all - something I think our lady in
paris with behemoth is battling with too. Any sort of
tension leads to a nasty feedback loop of the wrong kind.
Where's the pleasure in it, if I'm tense and worrying all
the time from trying to re-learn too much too soon?

If I listened to everyone on here, I'd have tried clipless
out a couple of years back, would have utterly lost
confidence on a bike, and probably given the whole cycling
thing up as a Bad Idea.

I have to say, I didn't start into this thread looking for
'help me signal and use clipless' advice :-) It just seems
to have ended up that way, which wasn't my intention at all
- I'm happy with the progress I'm making, slow though it is
- and have no desire to try and speed it up only to have
something set me back.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Not really, but I know how badly I react to being pushed
along to do things too fast - it all leads to tense
frustrated failure. Far better for me to do it at my own
steady pace (which a lot of people regard as similar to a
snail, I might add!)

Sorry if these seems to be banging the same chords again
and again... but I'm not trying to get you to move at any
pace other than your own. What I'm suggesting is a
different priority.

At the moment it seems like you're trying to lean all the
basic skills very gradually but at the same time, on
"normal" rides. This is, if you think about it, in marked
contrast to the way most things are taught, which is to
hammer at basic skills one at a time. By taking out
everything but one particular skill you actually reduce the
pressures of anxiety, not increase them! You gave a very
good illustration of how there are so many things preying on
your mind on normal riding that adding anything else will
just make it worse. Quite so, but this also illustrates the
quandary with your approach: you'll learn things once you're
relaxed, but it's very difficult to relax when there's so
much to worry about and the basic skills aren't quite there.
Hammering at a basic skill over and over and over again in a
situation where everything else is removed is a proven way
to get those basic skills in place. Taking up kayaking in
the not too distant past I learned to roll the boat in a
swimming pool with everything as much under control as it
could be. That made doing a roll "in anger" flipped over in
surf a lot easier to get right than learning to roll to
start with in a tricky place, as being in the swimming pool
I didn't have to worry about stern ruddering, and tidal
rips, and brace strokes etc. etc. at the same time I was
getting a roll into shape.

Another parallel: I've been a free heel skier for about 12
years. For about the first 7 of those I made gradual
progress at my own rate, practising my downhill skills on
tours, and I was very happy with my progress (does that ring
any bells?). Then I ended up on a holiday with a qualified
instructor who believes in getting basic skills sorted, and
I learned more in a few days of occasional tips and
repeating exercises to hone basic skills than I had learned
in the previous 7 /seasons/ of skiing. Not only did it
improve my skiing, but it improved my ability to get even
better, and serious downhills became something to enjoy
rather than to survive. I'd spent years thinking pretty much
exactly the way you seem to be doing now, and it is only
with hindsight that I can say I really wasn't doing myself
any favours, though I was quite sure I was doing what was
right for me at the time.

Think of any skill you've learned, and think if it was
broken down into simple, basic steps which you got
completely mastered so they were in place and working before
you had to combine them with anything else. I can't really
think of any that don't fit that description, and cycling
was one of the many that does.

Quoted message said:

of the wrong kind. Where's the pleasure in it, if I'm
tense and worrying all the time from trying to re-learn
too much too soon?

It's the fact that you're trying to relearn everything at
the same time that I think is possibly part of the problem,
however slowly. What I'm suggesting doesn't really apply to
"too soon", you start working on things one at a time and
keep on at your own rate until you're there with the one
thing, then address the next. There's nothing much else to
worry about in the meantime.

Quoted message said:

I have to say, I didn't start into this thread looking for
'help me signal and use clipless' advice :-) It just seems
to have ended up that way, which wasn't my intention at
all - I'm happy with the progress I'm making, slow though
it is - and have no desire to try and speed it up only to
have something set me back.

Again, I'm not trying to force a speed, just suggesting
trying to do one thing at a time, then the next thing,
etc. It stops when it's finished according to your
timetable, not mine.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Michael MacClancy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2gh06vF2kdqtU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

> I'm sure that most people only unclip one when
> stopping, usually the less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable
habit will always put

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

right foot down. I mormally put my right hand down as
the camber of the road makes it easier, but will use
the left if there's railings or a handy kerb. When
taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll use
either foot.

The leg you put down should generally depend on which
side of the traffic

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are.

Why? What book's that in?

Having a bad day, Michael?

It's taught in the Safer Cycling course given to schoolkids
for example. They get told to stop at the left side of the
road and put their left foot down because that way:

A. They run less risk of a truck running over their toes

B. They are leaning away from the traffic so if they do
keel over they run less risk of having a truck run over
their head.

Quoted message said:

An American book I have says you should put down your left
foot but probably forgets that some people have a dominant
left leg and would rather put down their right foot.
Anyway, my book obviously relates the foot to 'handedness'
and not traffic.

So all people are right-handed? NO, BUT THEY WILL BE WHEN
GEORGE THE FOURTH OF AMERICA BECOMES KING OF THE WORLD!
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

"Michael MacClancy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2gh06vF2kdqtU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

> I'm sure that most people only unclip one when
> stopping, usually the less dominant leg.

I'm right-handed and right-footed, yet by immutable
habit will always put

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

right foot down. I mormally put my right hand down as
the camber of the road makes it easier, but will use
the left if there's railings or a handy kerb. When
taking off afterwards (or starting the trike) I'll use
either foot.

The leg you put down should generally depend on which
side of the traffic

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are.

Why? What book's that in?

Having a bad day, Michael?

It's taught in the Safer Cycling course given to schoolkids
for example. They get told to stop at the left side of the
road and put their left foot down because that way:

A. They run less risk of a truck running over their toes

B. They are leaning away from the traffic so if they do
keel over they run less risk of having a truck run over
their head.

Quoted message said:

An American book I have says you should put down your left
foot but probably forgets that some people have a dominant
left leg and would rather put down their right foot.
Anyway, my book obviously relates the foot to 'handedness'
and not traffic.

So all people are right-handed? NO, BUT THEY WILL BE WHEN
GEORGE THE FOURTH OF AMERICA BECOMES KING OF THE WORLD!
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

Simon Brooke said:

Surely which foot you put down depends a bit on the camber
of the road. You generally need to put the uphill foot
down (unless the camber is slight) because if you try to
put the downhill foot down you'll probably topple over
anyway. In my experience, of course.

You must be riding one of those funny upwrong things.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

Mark South said:

A. They run less risk of a truck running over their toes

B. They are leaning away from the traffic so if they do
keel over they run less risk of having a truck run over
their head.

ICBW but I think I got into the habit of putting the left
foot down by default as that was the obvious one to have on
the ground when I was mounting a bike with a "you'll grow
into it" sized frame from a kerb and heading off on the LHS
of the road. And when coming in to land on a nice raised
kerb while headed in the same direction. It was just easier
that way round. Similarly I mount the bike from the left by
default, and actually have to think about it to get on from
the other side...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking about buying a pair, too. My trainers keep
sliding off the pedals when they are wet, which can be a
bit dangerous. The Shimanos look good; I don't want to
spend a fortune either.

A pair of Zefal toe cups will stop them doing that, but
cycle shoes are a win in any case because of the
stiffer sole.

I used to use those with training shoes, Peter. I trashed
several pairs of shoes in the ball of the foot (football?)
area, probably because the shoes' soles were too flexible.

James