bicycle for horses

(Dennis Farr) said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary
treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively
flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal, better than
anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and rider.) Basic
data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate up
to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably
have to be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of
automatic transmission to keep the horse operating at it's
best speed and keep it from falling off either end on a
hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see
if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a
horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and
in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it
could make peoples' lives better.

I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any
money. Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot
and let me know if it works.

There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and
engineering.

Won't work for two reasons that I can think of.

1. too much weight for the apparatus;
2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
also their midsection at the gallop, which functions like
an additional leg or similar. The mid section contracts
and extends adding a lot to the power and it would be
difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
3. lack of proper fit and friction to transfer as much power
from the horse's feet to the treadmill.

OK, that's three reasons... ;-p

-Badger Oh, and you'd have to change horses well before 100
miles. I think the pony express riders changed up at like 30
miles or 50 miles, IIRC.

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary
treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100
relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal,
better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and
can generate up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill
would probably have to be around 10-12 feet long, would
need some sort of automatic transmission to keep the horse
operating at it's best speed and keep it from falling off
either end on a hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see
if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a
horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and
in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it
could make peoples' lives better.

I think it could work, but don't think you'd get 35 mph out
of it for any length of time. Do some of the math, and
figure out how much power it would take to move 1200 lbs at
35 mph over a typical road, and then compare that to how
much power a horse can put out for 3 hours. I don't think
those numbers will be consistent with each other.

Consider a bicycle: a top human sprinter (Cipo, etc) can put
out a little over 2 hp for a few seconds, and that gets him
up to around 50 mph, with a total weight of bike and rider
of less than 200 lb. I don't think you'll get a horse and
carriage to 35 for very long, even without carrying any
useful payload.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
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Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it
would be difficult to transfer this power to a
treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
treadmill? Where would it go?

--kyler

"Kyler Laird" <[email hidden]> wrote: O.k., I give.
How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where
would it go? ^^^^^^^^^^^^ A horse walking on a treadmill
could transfer full power to the propulsion system. But a
horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full
gallop) would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of
the time. So, to keep him from running off the front of the
system, you would have to tether him, and he would end up
pulling on a harness. That is what draft horses already do,
except they push against the ground. I believe that is the
most efficient method of drawing power from a horse. And, I
believe a rider on the back of a horse would be using the
horsepower more efficiently than any contrivance you could
rig up. A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance
Armstrong.

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance Armstrong.

Every day for 3 weeks?

Pete

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:10:11 GMT, Kyler Laird <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it
would be difficult to transfer this power to a
treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
treadmill? Where would it go?

--kyler

Because the horse would run off the treadmill, being in the
air during that time.

-B

"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance
Armstrong.

Every day for 3 weeks?

How long can a horse sustain a gallop?

Secretariat's time in the Belmont was 2:24 for 1.5 miles,
which is about
37.5 miles per hour. (He won by 31 lengths, and it's one of
those records that may stand for a long time.)

But even Secretariat couldn't maintain anywhere near that
pace for many miles.

Leo Lichtman said:

"Kyler Laird" <[email hidden]> wrote: O.k., I give.
How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where
would it go? ^^^^^^^^^^^^ A horse walking on a treadmill
could transfer full power to the propulsion system. But a
horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full
gallop) would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of
the time.

Uh, yeah. But the ground/treadmill is still the only thing
against which the horse can push. The force doesn't go
anywhere else.

Quoted message said:

So, to keep him from running off the front of the system,
you would have to tether him, and he would end up pulling
on a harness.

Or use an incline to offset the resistance of the system,
but I suspect that if you rigged such a device you'd want a
harness anyway.

--kyler

"Dennis Farr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary
treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100
relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal,
better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and
can generate up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill
would probably have to be around 10-12 feet long, would
need some sort of automatic transmission to keep the horse
operating at it's best speed and keep it from falling off
either end on a hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see
if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a
horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and
in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it
could make peoples' lives better.

I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any
money. Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot
and let me know if it works.

There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and
engineering.

The horse has evolved to cover long distances efficiently.
It's one of the most efficent animals on land. Anything you
do to change it's energy transfer system only detracts from
the horses performance.

Marty

Leo Lichtman said:

A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to
the propulsion system. But a horse, developing full power
(picture a horse at full gallop) would be out of contact
with the treadmill a lot of the time. So, to keep him from
running off the front of the system, you would have to
tether him, and he would end up pulling on a harness.

So I'm thinking lots of hamsters or gerbils. Little arows so
they know which way to run. And maybe a whip.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it
would be difficult to transfer this power to a
treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
treadmill? Where would it go?

I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on
the treadmill belt, causing inefficient power transfer.

Quoted message said:

--kyler

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

In article <MTMBc.112096$Gx4.3316@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
[email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

contrivance you could rig up. A rider at full gallop could
surely beat Lance Armstrong.

Not for 100 miles, he couldn't.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

[email hidden] (Dennis Farr) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
treadmill.

I think a lot of the discussion on this is missing a basic
point... A horse on a running on a treadmill is using the
exact same motion as a horse running on the ground. All the
treadmill and wagon can do is add friction and slow down the
horse. The reason a bicycle is more efficient than running
is that the weight is supported and the power is transferred
directly to the wheels.

If you could design a wheeled contraption to support the
horses weight and let it transfer power directly to the
wheels, you would have something that would go very well.
Also people would pay to see it 🙂

Jeff

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:28:49 -0400, David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Badger_South said:

2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and
it would be difficult to transfer this power to a
treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
treadmill? Where would it go?

I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on
the treadmill belt, causing inefficient power transfer.

Actually using bad or no physics, I fsked up, and now I'm
trying to do damage control. It might have been I wasn't
awake yet. Yeah that's it. ;-p

-Badger

Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the
objections that were raised.

"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"

Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE
could cover 100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a
mechanism that can 1) coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying
the horse's power, and I think the horse could go at least
as far as a human on a bike.

"galloping"

The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable
speed while turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a
Clydesdale on a four-tired vehicle with a treadmill hooked
up to a very high gear (what could he turn on the flat for
an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The horsey
doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if
he can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover
some ground.

"too heavy"

Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver
weigh 1200 pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that
because we're probably going to need 4 wheels. Even if you
double that again, we're up to about what a buggy weighs,
and horses pulled them around in all those Western movies
without too much evident strain.

"horse evolved to run"

Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project
is going to be making the apparatus well suited to the
horse. But don't forget that horses walking on treadmills
were the preferred power source for ferry boats for a brief
period when the technology for treadmills existed but we
couldn't make steam engines yet.

Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will
try this out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.

Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the
objections that were raised.

"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"

Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE
could cover 100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a
mechanism that can 1) coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying
the horse's power, and I think the horse could go at least
as far as a human on a bike.

"galloping"

The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable
speed while turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a
Clydesdale on a four-tired vehicle with a treadmill hooked
up to a very high gear (what could he turn on the flat for
an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The horsey
doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if
he can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover
some ground.

"too heavy"

Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver
weigh 1200 pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that
because we're probably going to need 4 wheels. Even if you
double that again, we're up to about what a buggy weighs,
and horses pulled them around in all those Western movies
without too much evident strain.

"horse evolved to run"

Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project
is going to be making the apparatus well suited to the
horse. But don't forget that horses walking on treadmills
were the preferred power source for ferry boats for a brief
period when the technology for treadmills existed but we
couldn't make steam engines yet.

Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will
try this out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.

Can you even install cleats in hooves?

Bill "and then of course, there's finding a SADDLE" S.

(Dennis Farr) said:

Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to
the objections that were raised.

"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"

Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE
could cover 100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a
mechanism that can 1) coast, and 2) has gears for
magnifying the horse's power, and I think the horse could
go at least as far as a human on a bike.

Huh? You said a 'flat course'. Of course a biker can coast,
and the gears work. The point, I thought, was
'horse/treadmill v Lance 100 miles on the flat'. Simple.
Simple answer, nope.

Quoted message said:

"galloping"

The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable
speed while turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a
Clydesdale on a four-tired vehicle with a treadmill hooked
up to a very high gear (what could he turn on the flat for
an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The horsey
doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if
he can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover
some ground.

Even if you made the device of Unobtanium, the lightest
metal in the universe (for sake of argument), the friction
of such an incredibly complex device would be more than
enough to bring it to a near standstill, IMO.

Quoted message said:

"too heavy"

Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver
weigh 1200 pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that
because we're probably going to need 4 wheels. Even if you
double that again, we're up to about what a buggy weighs,
and horses pulled them around in all those Western movies
without too much evident strain.

"horse evolved to run"

Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project
is going to be making the apparatus well suited to the
horse. But don't forget that horses walking on treadmills
were the preferred power source for ferry boats for a brief
period when the technology for treadmills existed but we
couldn't make steam engines yet.

So maybe the question should have been, can a horse, walking
all day, beat Lance over 100 miles. Can a horse walk all
day? For 2 days? Horses, depending on breed can go pretty
fast for 20-30 miles and that's it.

Quoted message said:

Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will
try this out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.

Yeah, not to be argumentative, interesting question for a
while. On the dog, too small an engine.

Best,

-B

S o r n i said:

Can you even install cleats in hooves?

Yep, horses often have them. Humans use those cleats to
play games, too...we throw them at a pole and argue if it's
close enough.

Quoted message said:

Bill "and then of course, there's finding a SADDLE" S.

Argh.
--
Rick Onanian