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Infectious Hospitals?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
25 June 2004
Last activity
5 July 2004
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Brad Edwards
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    yelxol said:

    1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be credible?

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question) the
    CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts die each
    year from nosocomial cross-infection?

    I'm trying to decide whether you're so crazy that you can't
    get beyond your fixation, or so stupid that you can't absorb
    the facts that kindly ol' Doc Harris has laid out for you.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  2. In article <[email hidden]>,

    yelxol said:

    [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, yelxol

    Quoted message said:

    1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be
    credible?

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question)
    the CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts
    die each year from nosocomial cross-infection?

    I'm trying to decide whether you're so crazy that you
    can't get beyond your fixation, or so stupid that you
    can't absorb the facts that kindly ol' Doc Harris has
    laid out for you.

    That will be assumed as a 'non-answer'... as predicted.

    I think we are finished here.

    Looks that way. You are incapable of grasping that most of
    those 80,000 cases you keep harping about are not caused by
    cross- contamination. Hell, you don't even know what
    diseases are involved.

    I'm not really surprised. You established yourself solidly
    as a netloon in your last couple of crusading forays on
    sci.med, but hope springs eternal and I thought you might
    have improved. No such luck.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    yelxol said:

    [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, yelxol

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...
    > In article
    > <[email hidden]>,
    > yelxol <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > >1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    > > concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be
    > > credible?
    > >
    > >2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or
    > > question) the CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S.
    > > hospital pts die each year from nosocomial cross-
    > > infection?
    >
    > I'm trying to decide whether you're so crazy that you
    > can't get beyond your fixation, or so stupid that you
    > can't absorb the facts that kindly ol' Doc Harris has
    > laid out for you.

    That will be assumed as a 'non-answer'... as predicted.

    I think we are finished here.

    Looks that way. You are incapable of grasping that most
    of those 80,000 cases you keep harping about are not
    caused by cross- contamination. Hell, you don't even know
    what diseases are involved.

    I'm not really surprised. You established yourself
    solidly as a netloon in your last couple of crusading
    forays on sci.med, but hope springs eternal and I thought
    you might have improved. No such luck.

    I do not choose to 'discuss' this or anything else with a
    person who constantly attempts to belittle, incense or
    provoke, who shows no indication of common cordiality.

    I suppose that was a bit rude of me, but what do you
    expect? You are the pinnacle of obstinacy as you
    consistently fail to realize that the data you are so fond
    of citing DO NOT prove what you keep insisting that they
    prove. You did back off to the degree that you started
    using "nocosomial," but you don't seem to be able to grasp
    that most of the people who die of infection in hospitals
    were NOT cross- infected by some sort of medical screwup.
    You don't even know what diseases they're dying of -- or if
    you do, you're sure keeping it a deep, dark secret from the
    reading public on sci.med.

    Even if those 80,000 deaths were all the result of
    medical bungling, you have absolutely no basis for
    assuming that they prove anything at all about goings-on
    in smaller clinics or doctors offices. You pile one
    misinterpretation upon another, and what do you have when
    you're done? Nothing.

    Quoted message said:

    What is the point? It is similar to 'born again' believer
    attempting to discuss abortion, Jesus, the power of prayer
    or many other matters with one who is not a 'born again'
    believer. The believer will never convince the non-believer
    of her/his belief... and vice versa.

    [Please notice I am not assigning you to one side or the
    other in this scenario.]

    You can if you want to. But let's remember that you're the
    one with the many axes to grind in this discussion. I was
    perfectly prepared to hear that 90% of those 80,000 deaths
    were due to something like bad sterile technique in
    hospitals. But they aren't. And once we know that, we know
    that those data can't be used to build the indictment you
    want, no matter how much you want it.

    Quoted message said:

    It is very obvious that you are solidly a part of 'the
    problem'... in one way or the other. The best assumption is
    that you are actually paid off (on the payroll), directly
    or indirectly, of those who feel threatened by the
    information contained within the book, Fatal Probe... and
    you/they should be.

    Oh, that's always the major giveaway -- when cornered, the
    twit who accuses his antagonist of being a paid agent of the
    Bad Guys. Hey, I can just as easily accuse you of being a
    stalking horse for a bunch of unscrupulous attorneys who are
    hoping to drum up business based on nocosomail infections,
    and will want to use your book as "evidence."

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  4. [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Once again: The CDC has reported that 80,000 hospital
    pts die EACH YEAR from iatrogenic infectious diseases.
    That just HAPPENS to be 80% of the 100,000 reported by
    the IOM.

    So it does. Whether that's of any significance whatever is
    another question entirely.

    COMMENT:

    Indeed. The CDC generally reports these things with the more
    correct term of "nosocomial" infections. Which suggests the
    more neutral and correct idea that they happened from a new
    infection which appeared after being admitted to a hospital
    (nosocomial used to refer to infection while under any
    medical care, but these days it means more specifically to
    the CDC an infection you came down with, within 3 days after
    being admitted to hospital).

    "Iatrogenic" is sometimes used as a (bad) synonym for
    "nosocomial", but we need to discourage this because
    "iatrogenic" literally means "caused by the doctor." It's an
    appropriate word for something caused by a doctor's mistake,
    but it's not an appropriate word for an infection picked up
    in a hospital, which may have been due to doctor's mistake,
    but also could be due to a nursing mistake or (more usually)
    to nobody's mistake.

    The majority of people who get ill and/or die from
    "nosocomial" infections are badly ill and immunosuppressed
    people who would get infected and often die no matter
    WHERE they were, even a sterile bubble (since a fair
    fraction of septic people die from their own GI flora or
    mouth flora causing UTIs or pneumonias). These are people
    like the very elderly, the pre-term neonate, the patient
    who has no bone marrow from chemo, or the guy with AIDS.
    We've all seen them.

    Anybody who's done much traveling will understand that we
    live in a sea of bacterial all the time, no matter where we
    are or what we do. If you travel, whether you eat the local
    food and water or not, it takes about 3 days for your system
    to start reacting to the strange bugs of the new land, and
    if diarrhea is all you get, you're lucky.

    Well, it's the same for the immunocompromised. They usually
    die with or from the germs in the environment of whereever
    they are when they get immunocompromised. If we shipped them
    all the yelxol's bedroom, they'd die from the flora there.
    Instead, however, we tend to send people to hospitals for
    treatment, so that when they happen to die of infections,
    it's an infection that arose after hospitalization. The CDC
    therefore puts them down as "nosocomial infection deaths."

    Note please that nobody has to prove that an infection even
    came from hospital bugs for the CDC to term it "nosocomial".
    Although of course hospital bugs are often involved. But (as
    noted) the bugs can come from anywhere. Nosocomial just
    means the infection appeared newly within 3 days after
    admission. It really says nothing about ultimate causes,
    which are (of course) extremely complex and multifactorial.

    To sum up, *iatrogenic* infections caused by germs on a
    doctor's improperly washed hands in a hospital, are a subset
    of hospital infections caused by poor hygeine and other
    correctable problems, which are a subset of new infections
    caused by hospital flora for various reasons (some of which
    have nothing to do with medical mistakes and are
    unavoidable), which are a subset of all infections (from
    hospital flora or not) that arise in people admitted to
    hospitals within the previous 3 days--- which is all that
    "nosocomial infection" means.

    I would think that anybody presuming to write a book on this
    subject would have mastered these distinctions, but then the
    world is filled with fools who want to publish.

    SBH

  5. 1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning iatrogenic cross-infections to be credible?

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question) the
    CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts die each
    year from iatrogenic cross-infection?

  6. [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, yelxol

    Quoted message said:

    1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be credible?

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question)
    the CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts die
    each year from nosocomial cross-infection?

    I'm trying to decide whether you're so crazy that you
    can't get beyond your fixation, or so stupid that you
    can't absorb the facts that kindly ol' Doc Harris has laid
    out for you.

    That will be assumed as a 'non-answer'... as predicted.

    I think we are finished here.

    WL

  7. [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, yelxol

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,
    yelxol <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    > concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be
    > credible?
    >
    >2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or
    > question) the CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S.
    > hospital pts die each year from nosocomial cross-
    > infection?

    I'm trying to decide whether you're so crazy that you
    can't get beyond your fixation, or so stupid that you
    can't absorb the facts that kindly ol' Doc Harris has
    laid out for you.

    That will be assumed as a 'non-answer'... as predicted.

    I think we are finished here.

    Looks that way. You are incapable of grasping that most of
    those 80,000 cases you keep harping about are not caused
    by cross- contamination. Hell, you don't even know what
    diseases are involved.

    I'm not really surprised. You established yourself solidly
    as a netloon in your last couple of crusading forays on
    sci.med, but hope springs eternal and I thought you might
    have improved. No such luck.

    I do not choose to 'discuss' this or anything else with a
    person who constantly attempts to belittle, incense or
    provoke, who shows no indication of common cordiality.

    What is the point? It is similar to 'born again' believer
    attempting to discuss abortion, Jesus, the power of prayer
    or many other matters with one who is not a 'born again'
    believer. The believer will never convince the non-believer
    of her/his belief... and vice versa.

    [Please notice I am not assigning you to one side or the
    other in this scenario.]

    It is very obvious that you are solidly a part of 'the
    problem'... in one way or the other. The best assumption is
    that you are actually paid off (on the payroll), directly or
    indirectly, of those who feel threatened by the information
    contained within the book, Fatal Probe... and you/they
    should be.

    Best regards.

    Will Locksley Author, FATAL PROBE Doctors Infecting Women A
    6 year study indicates that 3.3 million U.S.women are
    contracting infectious diseases every year during visits to
    their private medical providers... and 132,000 of them could
    be dying horrible, protracted deaths.

    Available from Amazon.com July 05, 2004.

  8. [email hidden] (yelxol) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning iatrogenic cross-infections to be credible?

    COMMENT

    I know of no CDC report on "iatrogenic cross-infection." The
    CDC, through its NNIP system, regularly reports on
    "nosocomial infection rates, and mortality and morbidity
    associated with them, but of course it's not the same thing.
    As I explained. It's difficult even to estimately
    attributable mortality, which is the deaths caused BY the
    infections, rather than the underlying disease whose
    treatment led to the infection.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question)
    the CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts die
    each year from iatrogenic cross-infection?

    COMMENT:

    The CDC reports no such thing. The experts on the subject,
    some of whom work for the CDC, sometimes make estimates of
    attributable mortality as a result of nosocomial infections,
    which are infections aquired by patients while hospitalized
    (half of them in the ICU). I've included one such attempt in
    the link below. Attributable mortality estimates for
    nosocomial infections range from 26,000 patients a year to
    105,000 patients a year, depending on what assumptions you
    make about hospital infection rates, fraction of these which
    are blood infections, and fraction of blood infections which
    cause death, in cases where the patient wouldn't have died
    anyway. Nobody keeps track of *all* these cases, and
    sampling is all we have to go on. Nor does anybody know the
    fractional causation for infection-associated death,
    exactly. Many patients die WITH infections, but how can we
    know for sure that they died OF infection?

    As for sampling, even the CDC NNIP program now only includes
    300 or so of the nation's hospitals, and infection
    experience varies widely between them. Some of this is due
    to the hospitals, and some is due to the populations that
    use them. For example, LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City has
    one of the lowest nosocomial infection rates in the US. But
    I can tell you from personal experience it's because LDS is
    a hospital full of relatively affluent, clean-living
    whitebread Mormons with good social support, not because the
    doctors there wash their hands there more than elsewhere.

    Can you cut nosocomial infection rates in ICUs by increasing
    hand-washing (by both doctors and nurses)? Yes, some. One
    study suggests you can cut them by about a quarter, with a
    25% increase in washing. This could save up to 1000 lives a
    year, according to the authors below. But it's a coincidence
    that the two numbers are about the same, and we can't
    extrapolate to say that (say) 50% increase in washing will
    give us 50% decrease in infection, because we don't know the
    shape of the dose-response curve for hand washing. Like most
    things in life, doubtless it saturates at some point. We
    KNOW many infections come from the patient's own flora. So
    we really don't HAVE any of the answers you pretend to know.
    To know what fraction of infections (and thus infectious
    deaths) are due to cross contamination, we'd have to cut
    cross contamination to zero somewhere for a large group of
    patients, and nobody has ever thought of a way to do so. Or
    prove it if they did.

    Again as explained, a nosocomial infection is simply one
    that occurs while the patient is in the hospital. Most of
    the fatal ones are due to some medical procedure, like
    placement of a foley catheter or central venous catheter.
    But only a fraction of them are preventable. A typical
    nosocomial death might involve a patient in the ICU who dies
    from sepsis as a result of skin flora (enterococcus or
    candida) invading the bloodstream and gaining a foothold as
    a result of presense of a central venous catheter of some
    kind. But that is not to say that these infections are
    necessarily a result of "cross contamination", let alone
    cross contamination by doctors (iatrogenic). The bugs may
    come from the patient's own skin. Unless you can figure out
    a way to sterilize the skin of every patient who has a
    central venous cather placed, much of this will continue to
    happen. Actually, the best bet for preventing it lies in
    development of antibiotic impregnated catheters on which
    bugs have a harder time growing.

    cdc.govwenzel.htm

    Steve Harris

  9. yelxol said:

    [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, yelxol

    Quoted message said:

    1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be credible?

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question)
    the CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts die
    each year from nosocomial cross-infection?

    I'm trying to decide whether you're so crazy that you
    can't get beyond your fixation, or so stupid that you
    can't absorb the facts that kindly ol' Doc Harris has laid
    out for you.

    That will be assumed as a 'non-answer'... as predicted.

    I think we are finished here.

    WL

    That sure makes me want to read your well-reasoned book.

    Joe

  10. yelxol said:

    I do not choose to 'discuss' this or anything else with a
    person who constantly attempts to belittle, incense or
    provoke, who shows no indication of common cordiality.

    Bill, the comments you've made here, which include whole
    chapters from the book you are self-promoting, are
    extravagantly unbelievable. Your posts provide group readers
    a fair chance to examine your credibility, the credibility
    of your research, and the likelihood that we can rely on you
    as an authority in the matters you address. The responses do
    not appear supportive for you.

    It looks like David's suggesting as others before have
    that there are numerous problems with your writing, which
    may include:
    - Comments unsupported by any reason or authority;
    - Quotations referencing no original speaker;
    - Misrepresentations of published data;
    - Misinterpretations of published data; and
    - Fictionalized accounts of supposed documentary events.

    Moreover, when educated readers in this and other fora have
    taken issue with these concerns, you:
    - Ignore them, and repeat your faulty message;
    - Accuse them or being part of a conspiracy to
    discredit you;
    - Excuse yourself by some convenient rationalization;
    - Change your name and reappear later, posting under a
    new name; or
    - Change your name and reappear later, posting under
    both names.

    Can you think of any more cordial way to present these
    complaints against the substance of your writing and your
    prolonged incivility to the group than by the list above?

    In light of these complaints, can you see why real readers
    might become impatient with you, scoff, and treat you less
    than cordially?

    Quoted message said:

    What is the point? It is similar to 'born again' believer
    attempting to discuss abortion, Jesus, the power of prayer
    or many other matters with one who is not a 'born again'
    believer. The believer will never convince the non-believer
    of her/his belief... and vice versa.

    I've heard it said that in arguments regarding the divine,
    with faith no proof is necessary, and without faith no proof
    is adequate.

    However, this is NOT a similar discussion as you suggest.

    You have not raised a discussion of the spiritual to be
    tested in the heart of the reader. You've made accusations
    against the health care practice of doctors, calling them
    negligent, impugning their ethics and goodwill to their
    patients, and accusing them of harm or homicide.

    These are not matters of faith but of proof. Your charges,
    if true, could be rationally quantified and proven to
    reasonable listeners. However, you have so far failed in
    that proof, and there may be no more cordial way to say so.

    @~

  11. 1. General question: Do you find the CDC's report(s)
    concerning nosocomial cross-infections to be credible?

    2. Specific question: Do you 'disbelieve' (or question) the
    CDC data that reports 80,000 U.S. hospital pts die each
    year from nosocomial cross-infection?

  12. Hospitals try to slow progress of infections report card
    plan Monday, February 09, 2004

    By Christopher Snowbeck, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

    Pennsylvania hospitals are trying to slow efforts by a state
    agency to generate a statewide report card on hospital-
    acquired infections, a decades-old problem that causes many
    deaths and illnesses.

    The Pennsylvania Health Care Cost Containment Council
    notified hospitals in November that it would begin
    collecting information on infections this year.

    But the Hospital & Healthsystem Association of
    Pennsylvania, while pledging support for the idea of a
    report card, has argued the data-collection method proposed
    by the council has problems. Hospital officials made their
    case at a hearing before the council this week in
    Harrisburg, and the council has until Feb. 18 to respond to
    the hospitals' protest.

    "Our discussions with [the council] are not about reporting
    or not reporting -- they are about including infection
    control experts in the process and refining the data
    collection so that the resulting reports will be of high
    quality," said Roger Baumgarten, spokesman for the hospital
    association. "Reporting is the right thing to do, but it
    must be done right."

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates
    that 2 million patients per year suffer infections in
    hospitals. Those infections are implicated in 88,000 deaths
    per year at a cost of more than $4.5 billion.

    Infections were among the issues highlighted in a ground-
    breaking 1999 report from the federal Institute of Medicine,
    which called for action to reduce medical errors.

    The clash between the council and hospitals over infection
    reporting comes six months after the groups fought over a
    state law that authorizes the council to collect data on
    hospitals, doctors and health plans.

    In that earlier battle, hospitals asked legislators to
    change the council's data requirements because reporting
    was too costly. Supporters of the council countered that
    hospitals were actually trying to weaken -- if not kill
    -- the council and its report cards on health care
    quality and cost.

    The council survived, but the Legislature's final
    reauthorization bill included changes in the reporting
    requirements.

    While the debate on infection reporting continues in
    Harrisburg, the private, nonprofit Pittsburgh Regional
    Healthcare Initiative is reporting continued improvements in
    its project to reduce bloodstream infections in hospitals.
    Nationwide, those infections account for 50,000 of the 2
    million hospital-acquired infections each year.

    [That's 50,000 (2%) of 2,000,000, Steve. Certainly not
    significant.]

    When the local project began in 2001, 28 participating
    hospitals in the region reported a rate of 4.2
    bloodstream infections per 1,000 days that patients used
    central-line catheters. The rate dropped to 2.4 per 1,000
    line-days for 23 hospitals that reported data in the
    third quarter of 2003.

    Allegheny General Hospital, in particular, reported
    dramatic success in its coronary and medical intensive care
    units, where it reported no bloodstream infections in
    September 2003.

    The catheters are inserted in the chest, neck or groin to
    deliver medicines, fluids, blood products or nutrition.
    Doctors and nurses can reduce the chance of infection by
    following certain practices when inserting and caring for
    central lines.

    Bloodstream infections kill 14 percent to 40 percent of
    those who contract them.

    Fatal or not, each one extends a patient's hospital stay by
    an average of one week. Those hospitalizations have an
    average cost of $33,000.

    (Christopher Snowbeck can be reached at csnowbeck@post-
    gazette.com or 412 263-2625.)

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