Why Can't Mountain Bikers Read?

So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you publish
it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder if that violates
your TOS, dic ( err, doc).

Bill "you're just pathetic" S.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:20:39 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

At 01:46 PM 4/17/04 -0700 said:

Dr. Vandeman,

Quoted message said:

I have just read a number of your web pages regarding your opinion on mountain
bikers. I am compelled to comment that I am surprised by the apparent bias and
emotionality that characterizes your writing, especially in light of your
advanced education.

You COMPLETELY missed my point, leading me to suspect that you didn't read
carefully. I never said anything like that. Intimidation of wildlife and other
trail users is NOT restricted to idiots. ALL mountain bikers, due to the
presence of bikes, intimidate wildlife and other trail users. We never know when
someone is going to come around a blind turn too fast and run into us.

Quoted message said:

Many mountain bikers are quite ecologically conscious, in part because its
consistent with their own best self-interest. A number of mountain biking
groups engage in extensive trail maintenance that benefits hikers as well. Such
maintenance addresses issues of naturally-caused trail erosion, safety, and
emergency access for hikers, equestrians, and bikers. Mountain bikers
frequently report and help repair trail hazards and other problems that help
shield land managers from liability and keep trails open.

I am not interested in trail maintenance or "keeping trails open". Neither
benefit wildlife.

Mikey's point, if you can sort it out from his typical non-standard
and confusing use of quotes, is the last line above.

He is against ALL recreational uses of any place HE perceives as
important to his only friends, the wildlife, (which includes insects,
BTW). Mountain bikers are merely his primary target, but he is happy
to pit various recreational groups against on another to achieve his
ultimate goal, the closure of all non-urban areas to humans. He is
also happy to completely ignore larger issues, like pollution,
resource, extraction, development, etc that are far more harmful to
the environment and the wildlife he claims he speaks for.

If you look further, he wants all non-native species, including
humans, removed from North and South America.

It is funny to see him accuse others of missing his points. He is not
at all capable of absorbing any tiny bit of information that does not
completely agree with his OPINIONS. Some scientist.

But Mikey doesn't really do this for the environment, but out of his
desperate need to be perceived as the leader of something relevant.

Be amused by him, or pity him, but don't waste the effort of taking
him seriously. Note the number of supporters he has here, even
counting his sock puppets.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On 4/18/04 7:20 AM, in article [email hidden],

Mike Vandeman said:

At 01:46 PM 4/17/04 -0700 said:

Dr. Vandeman,

Quoted message said:

I have just read a number of your web pages regarding your opinion on
mountain

bikers. I am compelled to comment that I am surprised by the apparent bias
and
emotionality that characterizes your writing, especially in light of your
advanced education.

Ha, so much for the correlation of school to smarts.............

Keep riding and pay little attention to the court jester.

same reason some PhD's lack any intelligence?

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At 01:46 PM 4/17/04 -0700 said:

Dr. Vandeman,

Quoted message said:

I have just read a number of your web pages regarding your opinion on

mountain

Quoted message said:

bikers. I am compelled to comment that I am surprised by the apparent

bias and

Quoted message said:

emotionality that characterizes your writing, especially in light of your
advanced education.

Quoted message said:

Your evident vitriol and global miscategorization of all bicycle riders

as

Quoted message said:

essentially one homogeneous group of sociopaths obstructs your quite valid

and

Quoted message said:

important point that there are a number of idiots who mistreat the trails

and

Quoted message said:

threaten the safety and comfort of all types of trail users--and it is the
impact of this subpopulation that must be addressed.

You COMPLETELY missed my point, leading me to suspect that you didn't read
carefully. I never said anything like that. Intimidation of wildlife and

other

Quoted message said:

trail users is NOT restricted to idiots. ALL mountain bikers, due to the
presence of bikes, intimidate wildlife and other trail users. We never

know when

Quoted message said:

someone is going to come around a blind turn too fast and run into us.

Actually, he read your rants and posted a reasonably, if not completely
accurate, assessment of you completely biased agenda.

Your inability to put blank space between your rants and the basically sound
and balanced comments of the biking community leads to further evidence that
you are among the most stupid people on the planet. If my job was to hand
out PhDs, I would be repossessing yours.

<snippety snip>

God knows where you are, but have you ever heard of the "Ridgeway"?
Everybody uses it, but the biggest problem we have here is burnt out cars
and cars driving up and down it, it's can't cope with modern vehicles, (it
was used as an old roman road.)

Cyclists have the same right to be on trails as everyone else, just as long
as everyone shows common curtesy to everyone else and shows respect for the
wildlife.

"S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you publish
it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder if that violates
your TOS, dic ( err, doc).

Bill "you're just pathetic" S.

Just goes to show that ALL environmentalists will do ANYTHING to
further their cause.

/Mikey logic off

(Stu) said:

"S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you publish
it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder if that violates
your TOS, dic ( err, doc).

Bill "you're just pathetic" S.

Just goes to show that ALL environmentalists will do ANYTHING to
further their cause.

Not all, just a few extremists like Mikey.

But he really is not working to help the environment.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Gary S. said:

Quoted message said:

I am not interested in trail maintenance or "keeping trails open". Neither
benefit wildlife.

Mikey's point, if you can sort it out from his typical non-standard
and confusing use of quotes, is the last line above.

And even that's wacko. Among those who wish to observe moose, it's a
given that maintained trails are a great convenience to the moose, and
are frequented by the moose to the exclusion of possible alternatives.

Pete H

--
Either everyone has rights or some have privileges.
It's really that simple.
Walt Kelly

Mike Vandeman said:

At 01:46 PM 4/17/04 -0700 said:

Dr. Vandeman,

Quoted message said:

I have just read a number of your web pages regarding your opinion on mountain

bikers. I am compelled to comment that I am surprised by the apparent bias and
emotionality that characterizes your writing, especially in light of your
advanced education.

Quoted message said:

Your evident vitriol and global miscategorization of all bicycle riders as

essentially one homogeneous group of sociopaths obstructs your quite valid and
important point that there are a number of idiots who mistreat the trails and
threaten the safety and comfort of all types of trail users--and it is the
impact of this subpopulation that must be addressed.

You COMPLETELY missed my point, leading me to suspect that you didn't read
carefully. I never said anything like that. Intimidation of wildlife and other
trail users is NOT restricted to idiots. ALL mountain bikers, due to the
presence of bikes, intimidate wildlife and other trail users. We never know when
someone is going to come around a blind turn too fast and run into us.

Or come around slowly and be courteous...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would like to point out that these outlawriders aggravate and threaten those

of us who ride responsibly, and they cause us as much concern for the continued
well-being of the trail system as they do for hikers. A number of us work
quite hard to educate these inconsiderate riders and enforce rules to help keep
them off the trails.

And it doesn't work, does it? I have heard the same story for a decade.

And we have heard yours....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many mountain bikers are quite ecologically conscious, in part because its

consistent with their own best self-interest. A number of mountain biking
groups engage in extensive trail maintenance that benefits hikers as well. Such
maintenance addresses issues of naturally-caused trail erosion, safety, and
emergency access for hikers, equestrians, and bikers. Mountain bikers
frequently report and help repair trail hazards and other problems that help
shield land managers from liability and keep trails open.

I am not interested in trail maintenance or "keeping trails open". Neither
benefit wildlife.

But you advocate hiking. That also requires maitenance and open trails....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You cannot look at the data dispassionately and seriously state that there

arent ignorant, rule-breaking, and trail-damaging hikers as well.

Irrelevant. How does that excuse mountain biking???

You should clean up your own act before attacking someone else...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have many times seen hikers and campers discard garbage, including water

bottles, beer cans, cigarettes and the like upon the trails. I have frequently
heard radios and boom boxes in wilderness areas, and witnessed countless acts of
vandalism by people on foot.

Quoted message said:

Furthermore, the damage that the equestrians do to the trails is considerably

more than the bikers.

Irrelevant. How does that excuse mountain biking???

If the soul purpose of getting bikes off trails is trail damage and wildlife, it
would make sense to at least acknowledge the damage done by others.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Consider the impact of a 150 lb. rider upon a 1,000 lb. horse set upon four

metal horseshoes versus a 150 lb. rider upon a 30 lb. bicycle and two rubber
tires. The more severe erosion problem from the equestrian is obvious, yet I
have yet to see any equestrians doing trail repair or maintenance. And I am
compelled to point out that bicycle riders do not leave large piles of manure in
the middle of trails.

Quoted message said:

Finally, please consider what some mountain bike riders are like. Whenever I

ride (always on designated trails), I bring along a number of safety and
survival items.

You could hike and do the same. It's irrelevant. How does that excuse mountain
biking???

You are the only one who needs an excuse.We work with other trail users and
organizations to increase awareness of safety for all users. You just want it your
way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I maintain an Emergency Medical Technician certificate solely for good

Samaritan purposes. I have provided hikers and bikers with first aid (the
supplies are always at my own expense), water, and directions on many, many
occasions. I am a member of several organizations that work to address the
issues that you mention. You might explore their websites ( for example,
www.imba.com. Also see
http://www.imba.com/news/news_releases/03_04/03_31_science_review.html for a
review of relevant studies) to see how important trail safety and courtesy is to
these groups and to discover the substantial efforts they are making to reduce
the abuse done by a small minority of riders . You might also speak with
Patrick Balizan of the East Bay Regional Park Police. He heads an all volunteer
organization of hikers, bikers, and equestrians who provide first aid,
education, assistance, and supplies to trail users and help enforce park rules
to ensure safe, cooperative use of the trail system by all users.

The only time I could have used first aid is when a mountain biker deliberately
ran into me, because I told him that the trail was closed to bikes.

Then that cyclist, the one that hit you, that single one, should have been held
accountable and prosecuted. You place ALL off road cyclists into the same category.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Each of these volunteer members not only supports the causes you champion,

but is actively donating time, money, and energy to further those causes.

Irrelevant. How does that excuse mountain biking???

You are the only one who needs an excuse.We work with other trail users and
organizations to increase awareness of safety for all users. You just want it your
way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, please, in the interest of achieving the important ecological goals for

which you advocate, dont allow yourself to be seduced by an overly emotional,
derisive, and biased position that stereotypes trail users and splits people
into competing and antagonistic groups. Nothing useful can come of that. We
all need to cooperate if we are going to preserve our natural resources.

You completely missed my point. Even the most polite, well-behaved mountain
biker: accelerates erosion, and drives wildlife and other trail users out of the
area.

That is your interpretation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is: An [censored] is an [censored], whether he hikes, bikes, or

rides a horse. And clearly each group has its share. So what would you think
if we refrain from publishing inflammatory, prejudicial stereotypes of the type
against which we have fought so hard during the last fifty or so years? Instead,
using a factually accurate, dispassionate manner, lets do what we can to address
the trouble makers in each trail user group. It always works better when we all
pull in the same direction.

It's incredible, how you could read something and TOTALLY miss the point.

Why? You do it all the time....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Steven J. Shotz, Psy.D.

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

S o r n i said:

So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you publish
it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder if that violates
your TOS, dic ( err, doc).

MV tried to sue the guy that maintained the MV FAQ a few years ago for doing the
exact same thing to posts that MV made. I just love a double standard....

Quoted message said:

Bill "you're just pathetic" S.

The Ent said:

Among those who wish to observe moose, it's a
given that maintained trails are a great convenience to the moose, and
are frequented by the moose to the exclusion of possible alternatives.

Squirrel likes it too.

Bill "no Bull (wink)-L" S.

"S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Ent said:

Among those who wish to observe moose, it's a
given that maintained trails are a great convenience to the moose, and
are frequented by the moose to the exclusion of possible alternatives.

Squirrel likes it too.

How do you know squirrels like it that moose use mtn bike trails?

Quoted message said:

Bill "no Bull (wink)-L" S.

Oh, Borris and Natasha. Nevermind.

Steve Curtiss said:

S o r n i said:

So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you
publish it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder
if that violates your TOS, dic ( err, doc).

MV tried to sue the guy that maintained the MV FAQ a few years ago
for doing the exact same thing to posts that MV made. I just love a
double standard....

Not to mention that "posts" are by definition public; private e-mails are
not.

Bill "M*V has no shame...integrity...credibility...genitals..." S.

TM said:

"S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Ent said:

Among those who wish to observe moose, it's a
given that maintained trails are a great convenience to the moose, and
are frequented by the moose to the exclusion of possible alternatives.

Squirrel likes it too.

How do you know squirrels like it that moose use mtn bike trails?

Quoted message said:

Bill "no Bull (wink)-L" S.

Oh, Borris and Natasha. Nevermind.

Da.

Flyink sqvirrel is friends of moose.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:50:10 GMT, "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote:

..So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you publish
..it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder if that violates
..your TOS, dic ( err, doc).

There's nothing private on the Internet. DUH. The best way to deal with abusive
email is to publish it for the whole world to see.

..Bill "you're just pathetic" S.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:40:13 -0400, Steve Curtiss <[email hidden]>
wrote:

..
..
..S o r n i wrote:
..
..> So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you publish
..> it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder if that violates
..> your TOS, dic ( err, doc).
..>
..
..MV tried to sue the guy that maintained the MV FAQ a few years ago for doing the
..exact same thing to posts that MV made. I just love a double standard....

Liar. Oh, I forgot. You are a mountain biker. That goes without saying.

..> Bill "you're just pathetic" S.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:32:24 GMT, "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote:

..Steve Curtiss wrote:
..> S o r n i wrote:
..>
..>> So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you
..>> publish it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder
..>> if that violates your TOS, dic ( err, doc).
..>>
..>
..> MV tried to sue the guy that maintained the MV FAQ a few years ago
..> for doing the exact same thing to posts that MV made. I just love a
..> double standard....
..
..Not to mention that "posts" are by definition public; private e-mails are
..not.

Show me where that is written.

..Bill "M*V has no shame...integrity...credibility...genitals..." S.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:32:24 GMT, "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote:

..Steve Curtiss wrote:
..> S o r n i wrote:
..>
..>> So someone sends you a private e-mail (content irrelevant) and you
..>> publish it on Usenet without their knowledge or permission? Wonder
..>> if that violates your TOS, dic ( err, doc).
..>>
..>
..> MV tried to sue the guy that maintained the MV FAQ a few years ago
..> for doing the exact same thing to posts that MV made. I just love a
..> double standard....
..
..Not to mention that "posts" are by definition public; private e-mails are
..not.

You are just embarrassed to have the truth made public.

..Bill "M*V has no shame...integrity...credibility...genitals..." S.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande