Beginner questions for Nottingham 3-speed

Mike said:

I recently bought a used Hercules 3-speed, and found my way to Sheldon
Brown's excellent pages. The hub is a Sturmey-Archer AW made in 1970.

A "Hercules" that late will actually be a Raleigh.

Quoted message said:

I didn't pay much for this bike and primarily use it for riding around
town, usually trips of less than a couple of miles. After tightening a
few spokes (no tension at all), replacing the brake pads, and dripping
a bit of oil into the hub, the bike is quite rideable, but I'd like
some advice on doing some very basic work. Any tips will be greatly
appreciated.

1-Whitworth vs Metric: This bike seems to be a mix. The seatpost is
definitely whitworth, or at least it fits none of my SAE or metric
wrenches. The front and rear hub nuts (front wheel is also S-A) seem
to be (different) metric sizes, but I wonder if this is actually just
coincidence.

Actually, many of the threads are Raleigh proprietary, but indeed, most
of the wrench sizes are Whitworth. Some of these coincide pretty well
with Metric sizes, especially if you use 6 point wrenches.

Quoted message said:

Can anyone tell me if standard metric cone wrenches will work on these
wheels, or is there a special version required? Also, is there a
source for these.

16 mm works fine.

Quoted message said:

2-Cones: These bikes seems to require cone adjustment each time the
wheels come off. I took the front cones out and they are severely
spalled. If these were easy to find I would replace them,

We've got 'em.

Quoted message said:

but they
aren't so I am wondering what the consequences of continuing to ride
on them will be. It seems I wouldn't be any worse off replacing them
later than now, but am I missing something? Is there a catastrophic
failure mode? The only downside appears to be more pedalling effort,
which is not really a problem.

Until I replace them, what is the best way to adjust them, tighter or
looser than usual?

They shouldn't bind. A little bit of play is OK. Make sure to put the
adjustable cone (the one with the wrench flats) on the left side. This
is very important.

Quoted message said:

3-Occasionally I see the AWC hub (with coaster brake) available at a
reasonable price. Is it easy to simply retrofit this hub in order to
get a coaster brake or is it dimensionally different?

If you mean to put the guts into the AW shell, no, I don't believe it
will work. If you mean to respoke the wheel with the AWC, that would
certainly work if the number of spoke holes matches.

Quoted message said:

Also, am I
correct in assuming that the coaster brake is going to stop better in
the rain than the calipers (which really give me almost nothing)? In
fact, the rear caliper on this bike is pretty useless even when dry.

When it works, it will work very well, but when it fails there will
likely be no warning. The Sturmey-Archer AW is a VERY reliable unit,
but their coaster-brake 3-speeds have a very bad reputation.

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to drop a Nexus 7-speed into these same dropouts?

I've done this. The dropout slots have to be filed out for the thicker
axle, and the frame needs to be spread. See:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

Quoted message said:

4-Chain line: I noticed that the pedals move when the bike is
freewheeling and thought I had the chain too tight.

This is usually caused by either the chain being too tight, or by the
rear cone adjustment being too tight. Occasionally a rear hub
lubrication issue.

Quoted message said:

What I discovered
is that the front and rear sprockets are not in the same plane when
the rear wheel is lined up properly, so the binding chain causes the
cranks to turn. Is this normal, a problem with the wheel dish, or some
other part prone to failure?

The sprocket on the Sturmey-Archer hub is dished, and there are also a
couple of spacer washers next to the sprocket. By rearranging spacers
and possibly flipping the sprocket over, you can fine tune the chainline.

The front chainline also permits a small amount of adjustment if you
remove the cotter.

Quoted message said:

5-I have seen other Raleigh 3-speeds with grip twist shifters. Is it
possible to replace the trigger shifter with one of these?

The Sturmey-Archer 3-speed twist grip shifter is a very, very poor
design. Stick with the trigger.

Quoted message said:

6-Given the state of the cones, should I try to rebuild the bottom
bracket as well to avoid damage to the frame. There isn't a shop in my
area that really has expertise on these old bikes, and none of them
have the little press for removing the cotters, so I would probably
end up doing this myself using the hammer method. I already had to
drive one of the cotters in with a hammer as a crankarm was loose.
Someone had replaced one of the nuts with a metric nut (which was
stripped, of course). This makes me wonder of the bottom bracket has
already been rebuilt by someone a little clueless.

Might just start by dripping oil down the seatpost, see if it frees up.
The fact that the cranks turn with the wheel suggests that the BB is
in good shape.

Quoted message said:

If you made it this far, then please share your opinion as to whether
I should just leave well enough (I think) alone, or put some effort
and (not too much) money into it.

Tough to say without seeing/feeling the bike, but these generally are
not prima donnas, tend to thrive with only minimal maintenance.

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/english" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| If you find yourself standing to accelerate, |
| on level ground, it is a sign that your gear |
| is too high, or that your saddle is too low. |
| See: http://sheldonbrown.com/standing.html |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon,

Thanks for following up to my post.

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I recently bought a used Hercules 3-speed, and found my way to Sheldon
Brown's excellent pages. The hub is a Sturmey-Archer AW made in 1970.

A "Hercules" that late will actually be a Raleigh.

Yes, had figured this out from the info on your site.

Quoted message said:

Actually, many of the threads are Raleigh proprietary, but indeed, most
of the wrench sizes are Whitworth. Some of these coincide pretty well
with Metric sizes, especially if you use 6 point wrenches.

Learned the six-point wrench trick years ago (working on cars), and
this has worked pretty well. Have good luck finding suitable metric
(or SAE) substitutes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can anyone tell me if standard metric cone wrenches will work on these
wheels, or is there a special version required? Also, is there a
source for these.

16 mm works fine.

Actually measured this with a dial caliper, and it is 16mm or so close
the difference doesn't matter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2-Cones: These bikes seems to require cone adjustment each time the
wheels come off. I took the front cones out and they are severely
spalled. If these were easy to find I would replace them,

We've got 'em.

Your page http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/three.html
seems to specifically mention these under "things we don't have (and
cannot get)." Is it worthwhile to replace the cones and bearings
without also replacing the axles? I have not taken the hub apart to
inspect the axles, but would suppose they are in pretty bad shape from
all the wear particles generated from the cones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Until I replace them, what is the best way to adjust them, tighter or
looser than usual?

They shouldn't bind. A little bit of play is OK. Make sure to put the
adjustable cone (the one with the wrench flats) on the left side. This
is very important.

This is how I had adjusted them, and they seem to be working just
fine. I may just stick with them as-is for now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3-Occasionally I see the AWC hub (with coaster brake) available at a
reasonable price. Is it easy to simply retrofit this hub in order to
get a coaster brake or is it dimensionally different?

If you mean to put the guts into the AW shell, no, I don't believe it
will work. If you mean to respoke the wheel with the AWC, that would
certainly work if the number of spoke holes matches.

The latter is what I meant; had not really thought of the former.
Could the wheel be rebuilt with the same spokes, and if not, is there
anything nonstandard about these spokes?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, am I correct in assuming that the coaster brake will stop better in
the rain than the calipers (which really give me almost nothing)? In
fact, the rear caliper on this bike is pretty useless even when dry.

When it works, it will work very well, but when it fails there will
likely be no warning. The Sturmey-Archer AW is a VERY reliable unit,
but their coaster-brake 3-speeds have a very bad reputation.

A bad reputation for failing suddenly and unexpectedly? Is the problem
only with the brake or also with the gears?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to drop a Nexus 7-speed into these same dropouts?

I've done this. The dropout slots have to be filed out for the thicker
axle, and the frame needs to be spread. See:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

OK, I guess this is beyond my level of expertise, and I can't find a
bike shop in Baltimore that ever heard the word Whitworth.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4-Chain line: I noticed that the pedals move when the bike is
freewheeling and thought I had the chain too tight.

This is usually caused by either the chain being too tight, or by the
rear cone adjustment being too tight. Occasionally a rear hub
lubrication issue.

The sprocket on the Sturmey-Archer hub is dished, and there are also a
couple of spacer washers next to the sprocket. By rearranging spacers
and possibly flipping the sprocket over, you can fine tune the chainline.

The front chainline also permits a small amount of adjustment if you
remove the cotter.

Quoted message said:

5-I have seen other Raleigh 3-speeds with grip twist shifters. Is it
possible to replace the trigger shifter with one of these?

The Sturmey-Archer 3-speed twist grip shifter is a very, very poor
design. Stick with the trigger.

Quoted message said:

6-Given the state of the cones, should I try to rebuild the bottom
bracket as well to avoid damage to the frame. There isn't a shop in my
area that really has expertise on these old bikes, and none of them
have the little press for removing the cotters, so I would probably
end up doing this myself using the hammer method. I already had to
drive one of the cotters in with a hammer as a crankarm was loose.
Someone had replaced one of the nuts with a metric nut (which was
stripped, of course). This makes me wonder of the bottom bracket has
already been rebuilt by someone a little clueless.

Might just start by dripping oil down the seatpost, see if it frees up.
The fact that the cranks turn with the wheel suggests that the BB is
in good shape.

Quoted message said:

If you made it this far, then please share your opinion as to whether
I should just leave well enough (I think) alone, or put some effort
and (not too much) money into it.

Tough to say without seeing/feeling the bike, but these generally are
not prima donnas, tend to thrive with only minimal maintenance.

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/english" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| If you find yourself standing to accelerate, |
| on level ground, it is a sign that your gear |
| is too high, or that your saddle is too low. |
| See: http://sheldonbrown.com/standing.html |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon, Thanks for following up to my post.

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I recently bought a used Hercules 3-speed, and found my way to Sheldon
Brown's excellent pages. The hub is a Sturmey-Archer AW made in 1970.

A "Hercules" that late will actually be a Raleigh.

Yes, had figured this out from the info on your site.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can anyone tell me if standard metric cone wrenches will work on these
wheels, or is there a special version required? Also, is there a
source for these.

16 mm works fine.

Actually measured this with a dial caliper when I got it off, and it
is 16mm or so close the difference doesn't matter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2-Cones: These bikes seems to require cone adjustment each time the
wheels come off. I took the front cones out and they are severely
spalled. If these were easy to find I would replace them,

We've got 'em.

Your page http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/three.html
seems to specifically mention these under "things we don't have (and
cannot get)." Is it worthwhile to replace the cones and bearings
without also replacing the axles? I have not taken the hub apart to
inspect the axles, but would suppose they are in pretty bad shape from
all the wear particles generated from the cones.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Until I replace them, what is the best way to adjust them, tighter or
looser than usual?

They shouldn't bind. A little bit of play is OK. Make sure to put the
adjustable cone (the one with the wrench flats) on the left side. This
is very important.

This is how I had adjusted them, and they seem to be working just
fine. I may just stick with them as-is for now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3-Occasionally I see the AWC hub (with coaster brake) available at a
reasonable price. Is it easy to simply retrofit this hub in order to
get a coaster brake or is it dimensionally different?

If you mean to put the guts into the AW shell, no, I don't believe it
will work. If you mean to respoke the wheel with the AWC, that would
certainly work if the number of spoke holes matches.

The latter is what I meant; had not really thought of the former.
Could the wheel be rebuilt with the same spokes, and if not, is there
anything nonstandard about these spokes?

Quoted message said:

When it works, it will work very well, but when it fails there will
likely be no warning. The Sturmey-Archer AW is a VERY reliable unit,
but their coaster-brake 3-speeds have a very bad reputation.

A bad reputation for failing suddenly and unexpectedly? Is the problem
only with the brake or also with the gears (which I assume are the
same as the AW).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to drop a Nexus 7-speed into these same dropouts?

I've done this. The dropout slots have to be filed out for the thicker
axle, and the frame needs to be spread. See:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

OK, I guess this is beyond my level of expertise, and I can't find a
bike shop in Baltimore that ever heard the word Whitworth.
(Suggestions welcome)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4-Chain line: I noticed that the pedals move when the bike is
freewheeling and thought I had the chain too tight.

This is usually caused by either the chain being too tight, or by the
rear cone adjustment being too tight. Occasionally a rear hub
lubrication issue.

The sprocket on the Sturmey-Archer hub is dished, and there are also a
couple of spacer washers next to the sprocket. By rearranging spacers
and possibly flipping the sprocket over, you can fine tune the chainline.

Yes, I noticed the dish in the sprocket, and it was already pointed
inward. Based on your comments here, I took the sprocket off, and
there was one spacer under it, which I moved to the outside. This
helped, but didn't completely bring the front and rear spockets into
line.

However, I also loosened up the rear cone and that seemed to solve the
tightness problem in the rear hub even with the sprockets not quite
aligned.

So of course I couldn't leave well enough alone, and moved one of the
two flat washers on the left side to the right and tightened the nuts
down. Now the right side had slipped in the dropouts under load
before, so I tightened it down pretty tight. Just as I was wondering
what the original torque spec was and thinking about going for my
TORK-GRIP wrench, I realized the nut was stripped. So looks as if I
will be giving you a call anyway.

Which brings on a new question. I notice on your Sturmey-Archer page
that the right and left-side axle nuts have different part numbers. Is
there really any difference? I thought the right-side nut might be
thinner, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the two nuts I
have.

Quoted message said:

Might just start by dripping oil down the seatpost, see if it frees up.
The fact that the cranks turn with the wheel suggests that the BB is
in good shape.

Hadn't thought of this, but will definitely give it a try. The bike is
giving me some clunking as I pedal, but I'm not sure if this is the BB
or coming from somewhere else.

Mike "Should've left well enough alone"

Mike said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I recently bought a used Hercules 3-speed, and found my way to Sheldon
Brown's excellent pages. The hub is a Sturmey-Archer AW made in 1970.

I replied in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A "Hercules" that late will actually be a Raleigh.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2-Cones: These bikes seems to require cone adjustment each time the
wheels come off. I took the front cones out and they are severely
spalled. If these were easy to find I would replace them,

We've got 'em.

Your page http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/three.html
seems to specifically mention these under "things we don't have (and
cannot get)." Is it worthwhile to replace the cones and bearings
without also replacing the axles? I have not taken the hub apart to
inspect the axles, but would suppose they are in pretty bad shape from
all the wear particles generated from the cones.

Axles don't wear out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Until I replace them, what is the best way to adjust them, tighter or
looser than usual?

Same as usual:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They shouldn't bind. A little bit of play is OK. Make sure to put the
adjustable cone (the one with the wrench flats) on the left side. This
is very important.

This is how I had adjusted them, and they seem to be working just
fine. I may just stick with them as-is for now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3-Occasionally I see the AWC hub (with coaster brake) available at a
reasonable price. Is it easy to simply retrofit this hub in order to
get a coaster brake or is it dimensionally different?

If you mean to put the guts into the AW shell, no, I don't believe it
will work. If you mean to respoke the wheel with the AWC, that would
certainly work if the number of spoke holes matches.

The latter is what I meant; had not really thought of the former.
Could the wheel be rebuilt with the same spokes,

Yes, if they're not too rusty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When it works, it will work very well, but when it fails there will
likely be no warning. The Sturmey-Archer AW is a VERY reliable unit,
but their coaster-brake 3-speeds have a very bad reputation.

A bad reputation for failing suddenly and unexpectedly? Is the problem
only with the brake or also with the gears (which I assume are the
same as the AW).

The problem is mainly with the brake, but the gears are not actually the
same.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to drop a Nexus 7-speed into these same dropouts?

I've done this. The dropout slots have to be filed out for the thicker
axle, and the frame needs to be spread. See:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

OK, I guess this is beyond my level of expertise,

Really? There's nothing challenging about this, no particular
"expertise" required, just a bit of elbow grease.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4-Chain line: I noticed that the pedals move when the bike is
freewheeling and thought I had the chain too tight.

This is usually caused by either the chain being too tight, or by the
rear cone adjustment being too tight. Occasionally a rear hub
lubrication issue.

The sprocket on the Sturmey-Archer hub is dished, and there are also a
couple of spacer washers next to the sprocket. By rearranging spacers
and possibly flipping the sprocket over, you can fine tune the chainline.

Yes, I noticed the dish in the sprocket, and it was already pointed
inward. Based on your comments here, I took the sprocket off, and
there was one spacer under it, which I moved to the outside. This
helped, but didn't completely bring the front and rear spockets into
line.

You could move an axle spacer washer from the left side to the right
side, but then you'd want to adjust the spokes to correct the dish of
the wheel.

There's also a bit of adjustment room available in the crankset,
onacountta the flat on the BB spindle is wider than the cotter.

Quoted message said:

However, I also loosened up the rear cone and that seemed to solve the
tightness problem in the rear hub even with the sprockets not quite
aligned.

So of course I couldn't leave well enough alone, and moved one of the
two flat washers on the left side to the right and tightened the nuts
down. Now the right side had slipped in the dropouts under load
before, so I tightened it down pretty tight. Just as I was wondering
what the original torque spec was and thinking about going for my
TORK-GRIP wrench, I realized the nut was stripped. So looks as if I
will be giving you a call anyway.

These nuts strip easily, due to the incomplete thread engagement on the
axle, and the fact that they need to be quite tight to prevent slippage.

It's very important to lubricate the threads of these axles/nuts.

Quoted message said:

Which brings on a new question. I notice on your Sturmey-Archer page
that the right and left-side axle nuts have different part numbers. Is
there really any difference? I thought the right-side nut might be
thinner, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the two nuts I
have.

You must have the two-piece setup on the right, with a plain hex nut,
and a threaded guide for the indicator chain screwed on after it. This
was done for a few years to let the bikes pack into a narrower box.

The good setup has a one-piece right axle nut, with the guide bilt in.
These are the kind we sell. They have more thread engagement than the
simple hex nuts your bike came with (which are the same right and left.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Might just start by dripping oil down the seatpost, see if it frees up.
The fact that the cranks turn with the wheel suggests that the BB is
in good shape.

Quoted message said:

Hadn't thought of this, but will definitely give it a try. The bike is
giving me some clunking as I pedal, but I'm not sure if this is the BB
or coming from somewhere else.

More likely a cotter issue. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/cotters

Sheldon "Nottingham" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------+
| Invictus |
| |
| Out of the night that covers me, |
| Black as the Pit from pole to pole, |
| I thank whatever gods there be |
| For my unconquerable soul. |
| |
| In the fell clutch of circumstance |
| I have not winced nor cried aloud. |
| Under the bludgeonings of chance |
| My head is bloody, but unbowed. |
| |
| Beyond this place of wrath and tears |
| Looms but the horror of the shade, |
| And yet the menace of the years |
| Finds, and shall find me unafraid. |
| |
| It matters not how strait the gate, |
| How charged with punishments the scroll; |
| I am the master of my fate; |
| I am the captain of my soul. |
| --William Ernest Henley |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

I said:

Quoted message said:

without also replacing the axles? I have not taken the hub apart to
inspect the axles, but would suppose they are in pretty bad shape from
all the wear particles generated from the cones.

and Sheldon replied

Quoted message said:

Axles don't wear out.

After looking at the parts blowup of these, I realized I wasn't really
talking about the axle, but whatever serves as the outer race for the
ball bearing. Looks as if iti s actually built into the hub shell.

I followed your advice regarding the cone adjustment and have decided
to leave it as is for now, as it is spinning pretty well.

Then I said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Is it possible to drop a Nexus 7-speed into these same dropouts?

More Sheldon:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've done this. The dropout slots have to be filed out for the thicker
axle, and the frame needs to be spread. See:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing

OK, I guess this is beyond my level of expertise,

Really? There's nothing challenging about this, no particular
"expertise" required, just a bit of elbow grease.

Have to admit I had not looked at your frame spreading site before
posting the above. Hard to believe your can really just bend the thing
apart with a 2x4, then file dropout with a flat [censored].

The dropouts on this bike measure 115mm and the Nexus 7 with coaster
brake is 127mm. Think I could get away without realigning the dropouts
after spreading?

Quoted message said:

You could move an axle spacer washer from the left side to the right
side, but then you'd want to adjust the spokes to correct the dish of
the wheel.

Hadn't thought of that. Thanks. This wheel needs to be trued anyway.

Quoted message said:

These nuts strip easily, due to the incomplete thread engagement on the
axle, and the fact that they need to be quite tight to prevent slippage.

Worst thing is I had read that and still screwed it up. The threads
had been lubed, though.

Quoted message said:

You must have the two-piece setup on the right, with a plain hex nut,
and a threaded guide for the indicator chain screwed on after it. This
was done for a few years to let the bikes pack into a narrower box.

Yep, but plan to order the single-piece version, now that I know it
exists. I'll contact you off-line.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hadn't thought of this, but will definitely give it a try. The bike is
giving me some clunking as I pedal, but I'm not sure if this is the BB
or coming from somewhere else.

More likely a cotter issue. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/cotters

Yep again. Found a local shop with the Park cotter press tool, so plan
to order the cotters same time as the axle nuts, then let the shop
press them in.

Am also thinking of swapping out the rear cog to give me a lower
lowest gear for steep hills. I'm thinking of switching to 20 or 22.
Any opinions as to which is better from those who have tried this
themselves.

Mike

Mike said:

The dropouts on this bike measure 115mm and the Nexus 7 with coaster
brake is 127mm. Think I could get away without realigning the dropouts
after spreading?

That much spreading would only change the alignment by about 1 degree,
maybe a bit less.

These are very thin, soft, stamped sheet metal dropouts, so there is no
risk of them damaging the axle.

You might want to tweak 'em a bit with a monkey wrench if they are
visibly off.

Sheldon "Those Bikes Are Very Forgiving" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com