Following someone's wheel when climbing

[email hidden said:

"]Hi all,

Something I've always wondered about but never quite understood: what
is the benefit of hanging onto someone's rear wheel when climbing? Is
there an actual physical benefit, for instance, an aerodynamic
improvement at climbing speeds? Or is it a psychological one, from
not having to set a pace, or some other reason?

Thanks,

Jason

Yes, there is still some aerodynamic benefit.... diminished from higher speeds, but still some.
Yes, there *can be* some psychological benefit, but it depends if you are "working well together". I have been on rides where I would follow some strong riders up hills and experienced both benefits. However, I have been dropped or heard "negative speak" in other situations... so you take your choices and chances.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

Something I've always wondered about but never quite understood: what
is the benefit of hanging onto someone's rear wheel when climbing? Is
there an actual physical benefit, for instance, an aerodynamic
improvement at climbing speeds? Or is it a psychological one, from
not having to set a pace, or some other reason?

Thanks,

Jason

I think you should ask Ivan Basso that question, it's not done him any harm
this past few days !

Graham

I read that at 20 mph, drafting a single rider reduced energy requirements by 18% and at 25 mph by 27% (Note that the front rider even saves about 5% because of the way air closes in from behind the front rider).

Unfortunately on a calm day at speeds under 15 mph it is less likely that air resistance is greater then rolling resistance, so riding close will have little energy saving benefit.

I believe that it has much more to do with the psychological benefit then energy savings.
-JN

[email hidden said:

"]Hi all,

Something I've always wondered about but never quite understood: what
is the benefit of hanging onto someone's rear wheel when climbing? Is
there an actual physical benefit, for instance, an aerodynamic
improvement at climbing speeds? Or is it a psychological one, from
not having to set a pace, or some other reason?

Thanks,

Jason

"joeln" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read that at 20 mph, drafting a single rider reduced energy
requirements by 18% and at 25 mph by 27% (Note that the front rider
even saves about 5% because of the way air closes in from behind the
front rider).

Unfortunately on a calm day at speeds under 15 mph it is less likely
that air resistance is greater then rolling resistance, so riding close
will have little energy saving benefit.

I believe that it has much more to do with the psychological benefit
then energy savings.
-JN

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are the
effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason I
ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider on
your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down. It
doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a bunch
of opinions without and data.

If you are going fast enough there is an aero benefits, however, that is not
the
only benefit. I find motivation in following someone else being your
typical
competitive person and not having to look up the hill and see the upcoming
grade, how much further it is to the next bend of the top benefits me
greatly.
When alone or in the front I find myself no longer looking up the whole of
the climb but doing the "series rubber band thing." That is where you find
something to focus on, be it a shadow, paint mark on the road, water bar
on the trail and focus on getting there, then once there picking another
focus object and concentrating on getting there over and over again.

"RWM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"joeln" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read that at 20 mph, drafting a single rider reduced energy
requirements by 18% and at 25 mph by 27% (Note that the front rider
even saves about 5% because of the way air closes in from behind the
front rider).

Unfortunately on a calm day at speeds under 15 mph it is less likely
that air resistance is greater then rolling resistance, so riding close
will have little energy saving benefit.

I believe that it has much more to do with the psychological benefit
then energy savings.
-JN

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are the
effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason I
ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider

on

Quoted message said:

your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down. It
doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a

bunch

Quoted message said:

of opinions without and data.

"Raymo853" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you are going fast enough there is an aero benefits, however, that is

not

Quoted message said:

the
only benefit. I find motivation in following someone else being your
typical
competitive person and not having to look up the hill and see the upcoming
grade, how much further it is to the next bend of the top benefits me
greatly.
When alone or in the front I find myself no longer looking up the whole of
the climb but doing the "series rubber band thing." That is where you

find

Quoted message said:

something to focus on, be it a shadow, paint mark on the road, water bar
on the trail and focus on getting there, then once there picking another
focus object and concentrating on getting there over and over again.

I guess I wasn't clear in my question. I am looking for the effects on the
lead rider. Does anyone have any data?

Quoted message said:

"RWM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"joeln" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read that at 20 mph, drafting a single rider reduced energy
requirements by 18% and at 25 mph by 27% (Note that the front rider
even saves about 5% because of the way air closes in from behind the
front rider).

Unfortunately on a calm day at speeds under 15 mph it is less likely
that air resistance is greater then rolling resistance, so riding

close

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will have little energy saving benefit.

I believe that it has much more to do with the psychological benefit
then energy savings.
-JN

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider

on

Quoted message said:

your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a

bunch

Quoted message said:

of opinions without and data.

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are the
effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason I
ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider on
your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down.

That is certainly nonsense. May not help the lead rider any, but
certainly won't slow him down.

Quoted message said:

doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a
bunch of opinions without and data.

What sort of data would you expect to be able to collect?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but
_`\(,_ | what canst thou say? -- George Fox.
(_)/ (_) |

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

joeln said:

I read that at 20 mph, drafting a single rider reduced energy
requirements by 18% and at 25 mph by 27% (Note that the front rider
even saves about 5% because of the way air closes in from behind the
front rider).

Unfortunately on a calm day at speeds under 15 mph it is less likely
that air resistance is greater then rolling resistance, so riding close
will have little energy saving benefit.

_ You're forgetting that this happens outside in real mountains
where it is almost always windy. Doesn't matter if you're going
5mph[1], if there's a 10pmh headwind, drafting will be beneficial.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- They climb at roughly 12-14 mph which is where drafting
starts to be useful, add even a slight headwind and you get
to a speed that everybody agrees that drafting helps.

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"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down.

That is certainly nonsense. May not help the lead rider any, but
certainly won't slow him down.

Quoted message said:

doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a
bunch of opinions without and data.

What sort of data would you expect to be able to collect?

I am looking for someone who either has tested the effects or a pointer to a
formula, similar to the type of information available at
http://www.analyticcycling.com/. The have great data about the many cycling
situations.

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what
are the effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a
climb and the second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first
rider? The reason I ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many
times that having a rider on your real wheel going up hill actually
will slow the lead rider down. It doesn't make any sense to me but I
have never a factual answer..just a bunch of opinions without and
data.

You sure that's what he said? Could've sworn I heard him today or yesterday
say that the lead rider benefits by about 5%, whereas the drafting riders
save something like 15 to 35 percent (depending on conditions, numbers,
etc.).

Bill "will seldom have to worry about it" S.

"S o r n i" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what
are the effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a
climb and the second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first
rider? The reason I ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many
times that having a rider on your real wheel going up hill actually
will slow the lead rider down. It doesn't make any sense to me but I
have never a factual answer..just a bunch of opinions without and
data.

You sure that's what he said? Could've sworn I heard him today or

yesterday

Quoted message said:

say that the lead rider benefits by about 5%, whereas the drafting riders
save something like 15 to 35 percent (depending on conditions, numbers,
etc.).

Bill "will seldom have to worry about it" S.

I have not heard him say it during this years tour, but many times in the
past races. I think that it is one of his throw away lines that he says
when he gets excited.

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are the
effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason I
ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider on
your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down. It
doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a bunch
of opinions without and data.

He doesn't say that. He probably says that if there is a following
rider who isn't working (taking turns in the front) it slows the
lead rider down _psychologically_ because they don't want to tow
the guy to the finish for free.

The actual effect of drafting for the lead rider has been debated
before on this group. If there is any benefit, it is very very
small, too small to measure at speeds and following distances
typical for bicycles.

Just don't follow too closely unless you know HE knows what he's doing.
If he stands up suddenly, his rear wheel could impact your front and you
would end up on the ground.

- -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what
are the effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a
climb and the second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first
rider? The reason I ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many
times that having a rider on your real wheel going up hill actually
will slow the lead rider down. It doesn't make any sense to me but I
have never a factual answer..just a bunch of opinions without and
data.

In general, any advantage from drafting goes up as the speed goes up.
At climbing speeds I have always felt that drafting is pointless.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney said:

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what
are the effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a
climb and the second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first
rider? The reason I ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many
times that having a rider on your real wheel going up hill actually
will slow the lead rider down. It doesn't make any sense to me but I
have never a factual answer..just a bunch of opinions without and
data.

In general, any advantage from drafting goes up as the speed goes up.
At climbing speeds I have always felt that drafting is pointless.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Dear Jim,

The point that you make about drafting being of little value
at climbing speeds always sounds reasonable and doesn't
really matter to me anyway, since I ride alone, but now it
occurs to me that preparation and planning and tactics may
make the difference in a close race, so . . .

There I am on my Fury RoadMaster behind Lance as we climb
some wretched French mountain.

He's younger, lighter, fitter, and trying to impress his
girl friend. Spurred on by the ominous whizzing noise of my
heavily treaded tires behind him, he's going as fast as he
can.

Should I hang on his rear wheel until we're almost at the
finish line, craftily enjoying the benefit of drafting him?
Or should I simply blast past him because the wind drag is
the same in front as it is behind?

How fast are we actually going, anyway? I toil up my daily
400 foot climb at 10 to 12 mph, but surely Lance goes up
steeper, longer climbs faster than this.

I gather that wind drag becomes the biggest factor in level
pedalling at around 15 mph. Armstrong averaged about 14.5
mph on the Alp d'Huez, so I'm wondering if I should plan on
drafting him on faster, less demanding climbs. Would sitting
on his rear wheel be worth while at 18 mph or so?

Walter Mitty

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I gather that wind drag becomes the biggest factor in level
pedalling at around 15 mph. Armstrong averaged about 14.5
mph on the Alp d'Huez, so I'm wondering if I should plan on
drafting him on faster, less demanding climbs. Would sitting
on his rear wheel be worth while at 18 mph or so?

Just because you are going less than 15mph and wind drag is not the
biggest factor does not mean that it is not still significant. So the
answer is that you should always draft LA, even on the steeper climbs.

JP

Jim Adney <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what
are the effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a
climb and the second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first
rider? The reason I ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many
times that having a rider on your real wheel going up hill actually
will slow the lead rider down. It doesn't make any sense to me but I
have never a factual answer..just a bunch of opinions without and
data.

In general, any advantage from drafting goes up as the speed goes up.
At climbing speeds I have always felt that drafting is pointless.

Painful perhaps, but not pointless.

JP

Jim Adney said:

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what
are the effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a
climb and the second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first
rider? The reason I ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say
many times that having a rider on your real wheel going up hill
actually will slow the lead rider down. It doesn't make any sense
to me but I have never a factual answer..just a bunch of opinions
without and data.

It doesn't make sense because it's not sensible. The rider following
cannot affect the rider leading in any way to slow the leading rider
down- unless he reaches out and grabs the leader.

Quoted message said:

In general, any advantage from drafting goes up as the speed goes
up. At climbing speeds I have always felt that drafting is
pointless.

Pointless in terms of wind resistance, I agree. Useful in terms of
having a "rabbit" to follow. I am not a good climber (being 6'4" and
215 lbs, I guess that's to be expected) but I can compensate by
staying right on the wheel of slightly faster riders and focusing on
their rear derailleur. I suppose it's a type of self-hypnosis, but in
any event I find that I can stay with them better than if I'm looking
up the road, etc.

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:41003939$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

The question that I have never had a satisfying answer to is, what are

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effects on the lead rider when two riders are going up a climb and the
second rider is right on the rear wheel on the first rider? The reason

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ask is that I have heard Paul Sherwin say many times that having a rider

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your real wheel going up hill actually will slow the lead rider down.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doesn't make any sense to me but I have never a factual answer..just a

bunch

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of opinions without and data.

He doesn't say that. He probably says that if there is a following
rider who isn't working (taking turns in the front) it slows the
lead rider down _psychologically_ because they don't want to tow
the guy to the finish for free.

I have heard him say it many times.