Cat 5 TT Power File

Aztec said:

Well, I had said I would post files from Cat 4/5 crits for comparison purposes, but I haven't ridden any since getting the Power Tap. So, here's a 30K TT I just did. I absolutely gagged, averaging only a pathetic 218 watts, yet with a whopping 185.3bpm HR (196 max). Odd since my training sessions have been 240w x 10 mins at ~180-183 bpm, 220w x 15 mins at 175bpm, and then 200w x 20 at about 169bpm. I was relaxed, calm, felt good for awhile, but not for long. I can't believe I was struggling to hold even 200w for awhile there. I did battle some side stiches 1/3 of the way through, but I don't think that was the problem. I came in about 1/4 of the way from the bottom in Cat5 and 35+ 4/5.

I don't know how you guys attach the full clean PT pics. I saved it to the clipboard and then stuffed it into a Word file, lacking any better ideas. Please let me know if there's a better way.

Well, that didn't work, as it thinks the file is 1MB...

The best idea would be to save the file to a webspace (if you have one) and put a link to it

Aztec said:

Well, I had said I would post files from Cat 4/5 crits for comparison purposes, but I haven't ridden any since getting the Power Tap. So, here's a 30K TT I just did. I absolutely gagged, averaging only a pathetic 218 watts, yet with a whopping 185.3bpm HR (196 max). Odd since my training sessions have been 240w x 10 mins at ~180-183 bpm, 220w x 15 mins at 175bpm, and then 200w x 20 at about 169bpm.

You sound surprized at your power output. if your 20min intervals are at 200w and your 10 minutes are 240w what did you expect for a 50min (or so) race? I would say that 218w is pretty darn good considering that it's almost 10% over your 20min interval power.

p.s. ignore HR

beerco said:

You sound surprized at your power output. if your 20min intervals are at 200w and your 10 minutes are 240w what did you expect for a 50min (or so) race? I would say that 218w is pretty darn good considering that it's almost 10% over your 20min interval power.

p.s. ignore HR

Beer -- all of those intervals are well below maximum effort. At the end of the third interval at 200w, I could easily keep going -- with a HR in the high 160s/low 170s (I know, ignore it, but my HR is very reliable as it doesn't vary all that much day-to-day). My ticker was running a solid 10-12 bpm above 'normal' for a given power level. And I didn't have any anxiety pushing it up (i.e., was very calm, viewing the race as a training session).

Either way, I have LOTS of aerobic work to do for next season!

Aztec said:

Beer -- all of those intervals are well below maximum effort. At the end of the third interval at 200w, I could easily keep going -- with a HR in the high 160s/low 170s (I know, ignore it, but my HR is very reliable as it doesn't vary all that much day-to-day). My ticker was running a solid 10-12 bpm above 'normal' for a given power level. And I didn't have any anxiety pushing it up (i.e., was very calm, viewing the race as a training session).

Either way, I have LOTS of aerobic work to do for next season!

How were weather conditions?

What was your nutrition/hydration like?

Roadie_scum said:

How were weather conditions?

What was your nutrition/hydration like?

Temps were low 80s and dry (I've been training in the high 70s). Wind was low, from the side mostly (though I wouldn't expect that would affect power output).

Nutrition was solid -- ate well 3 hours before, took gel with 10 mins to go. Didn't feel any lack of energy, really. Hydration was good, as I took in an additional 2.5 liters after an easy ride the day before (double my normal). That said, I didn't so much as take a sip thru the event. And afterward had a nice film of salt on my helmet straps, etc. Everything seemed like a normal post-ride for me (i.e., after 1.5 bottles, I still didn't need a restroom for 2 hours).

Aztec said:

Beer -- all of those intervals are well below maximum effort. At the end of the third interval at 200w, I could easily keep going -- with a HR in the high 160s/low 170s (I know, ignore it, but my HR is very reliable as it doesn't vary all that much day-to-day). My ticker was running a solid 10-12 bpm above 'normal' for a given power level. And I didn't have any anxiety pushing it up (i.e., was very calm, viewing the race as a training session).

Either way, I have LOTS of aerobic work to do for next season!

Sounds to me like you don't have your power levels right.

Typically speaking, a 20min interval should be done just below to just above 40k tt pace. For me, I do 2x20 min intervals and am quite toast by the end of the second interval. I probably could do a third, but it would be quite difficult to maintain full power by the end of the final 20.

Another thing which you probably did was go out to hard. Check the average power of the first 3 and 5 minutes of your TT. You'll probably find that it's pretty high - i.e. well above your FT. I did this in my first 40ktt this year and I think it cost me 20 to 25w ave. over the course of the TT.

beerco said:

Sounds to me like you don't have your power levels right.

Typically speaking, a 20min interval should be done just below to just above 40k tt pace. For me, I do 2x20 min intervals and am quite toast by the end of the second interval. I probably could do a third, but it would be quite difficult to maintain full power by the end of the final 20.

Another thing which you probably did was go out to hard. Check the average power of the first 3 and 5 minutes of your TT. You'll probably find that it's pretty high - i.e. well above your FT. I did this in my first 40ktt this year and I think it cost me 20 to 25w ave. over the course of the TT.

Interesting. I don't know my 40K tt power, but I'd imagine it couldn't be higher than 210w given yesterday (I'm ashamed to even type a number that small!). That would indicate that I've been over-powering just the first of the 3 intervals I've been doing, and by 30w for 10 mins. The 220x15 and 200x20 would be OK.

I came out of the gate at 600w for the first few seconds (no big deal) and then high 300s for another 30 secs, and was around 260w for the first 3 mins, 250 after 5.

Either way, I don't have any more TTs this season. Now it's a RR up the local 2200 ft hill in 3 weeks. The length of the event will be just about the same. Funny thing is that 200w climbing seems really easy, while it was serious work yesterday in the aero position. And my 20 min TT up the hill earlier resulted in 270w.

Aztec said:

I came out of the gate at 600w for the first few seconds (no big deal) and then high 300s for another 30 secs, and was around 260w for the first 3 mins, 250 after 5.

And my 20 min TT up the hill earlier resulted in 270w.

In light of this information and assuming your 20 min TT power was measured with a PT, Id say that you probably could have gone a bit better than 218w for your 30k TT. Overcooking the start has a huge impact on TT performance. I'm not talking about the 600w thing which is definitely not a big deal, but the 260 for 3 and 250 for 5 are definitely high if your FT is where I think it is, especially for a 30k TT (what was your time BTW?).

As a somewhat informed guess, I'd say that your FT or 40ktt power is probably around 235 (+/- 10w or so). But, don't take what I guess as gospel. Go out and do some 2x20 intervals and see how you feel. Try and take no more than 5 min between the intervals.

If you can complete the two intervals at around 235 but feel pretty gassed by the end, 235 is a good number. If it's too easy, go out in a couple days and try and hit 245. If 235 is too hard, drop 10w and try again.

I tend to use 2x20 power as a proxy for 40kTT power as 40ks are pretty tough on the body and mind. Doing 2x20s is also excellent training so it's both training and a test. As an alternative, you could always use Ric's MAP protocol which has TT power defined as a %-age of MAP. Sorry Ric, but I prefer the 2x20s because they don't interrupt my training schedule at all.

beerco said:

In light of this information and assuming your 20 min TT power was measured with a PT, Id say that you probably could have gone a bit better than 218w for your 30k TT. Overcooking the start has a huge impact on TT performance. I'm not talking about the 600w thing which is definitely not a big deal, but the 260 for 3 and 250 for 5 are definitely high if your FT is where I think it is, especially for a 30k TT (what was your time BTW?).

As a somewhat informed guess, I'd say that your FT or 40ktt power is probably around 235 (+/- 10w or so). But, don't take what I guess as gospel. Go out and do some 2x20 intervals and see how you feel. Try and take no more than 5 min between the intervals.

If you can complete the two intervals at around 235 but feel pretty gassed by the end, 235 is a good number. If it's too easy, go out in a couple days and try and hit 245. If 235 is too hard, drop 10w and try again.

I tend to use 2x20 power as a proxy for 40kTT power as 40ks are pretty tough on the body and mind. Doing 2x20s is also excellent training so it's both training and a test. As an alternative, you could always use Ric's MAP protocol which has TT power defined as a %-age of MAP. Sorry Ric, but I prefer the 2x20s because they don't interrupt my training schedule at all.

Correct about the PT.

My time was 50:37. Course was mostly flat, with some short rises that chopped speed down to the 12 mph range here and there (no fun on an aero bike!). I'd cross over 300-330w to get over them, thinking that was a good trade vs. crawling up at 220w.

I took Ric's Test of Suffering Capacity (aka MAP), and came up with 337w. That would estimate my 40TT at 242-259w. Of course, I took the MAP in road position, and then trained/rode the TT in a fairly aggressive, back-almost-flat aero position (reasonably comfy to me). I can't quantify the power loss, but I'd imagine it's material?

Re: intervals above. Are you suggesting that they should be a 40KTT level of exertion, done for 20 mins?

Aztec said:

Correct about the PT.

My time was 50:37. Course was mostly flat, with some short rises that chopped speed down to the 12 mph range here and there (no fun on an aero bike!). I'd cross over 300-330w to get over them, thinking that was a good trade vs. crawling up at 220w.

I took Ric's Test of Suffering Capacity (aka MAP), and came up with 337w. That would estimate my 40TT at 242-259w. Of course, I took the MAP in road position, and then trained/rode the TT in a fairly aggressive, back-almost-flat aero position (reasonably comfy to me). I can't quantify the power loss, but I'd imagine it's material?

Re: intervals above. Are you suggesting that they should be a 40KTT level of exertion, done for 20 mins?

it's late here, so i may not be reading the text correctly, but are you saying you tested and trained on a road bike, but raced this 30k TT on your TT bike (or in a significantly different position)? That could/would seriously impact your power.

Beerco, agreed, that's why i generally don't suggest doing a MAP too frequently. However, that's not to say that i don't use 2 x 20 (or whatever duratio/frequency) because i do. one's good training and the other is good for testing.

[quote="ric_stern/RST"]it's late here, so i may not be reading the text correctly, but are you saying you tested and trained on a road bike, but raced this 30k TT on your TT bike (or in a significantly different position)? That could/would seriously impact your power.QUOTE]

Close... I tested on the road bike, but then trained for 3 weeks (and then raced) only in the TT position.

Aztec said:

Well, I had said I would post files from Cat 4/5 crits for comparison purposes, but I haven't ridden any since getting the Power Tap. So, here's a 30K TT I just did. I absolutely gagged, averaging only a pathetic 218 watts, yet with a whopping 185.3bpm HR (196 max). Odd since my training sessions have been 240w x 10 mins at ~180-183 bpm, 220w x 15 mins at 175bpm, and then 200w x 20 at about 169bpm. I was relaxed, calm, felt good for awhile, but not for long. I can't believe I was struggling to hold even 200w for awhile there. I did battle some side stiches 1/3 of the way through, but I don't think that was the problem. I came in about 1/4 of the way from the bottom in Cat5 and 35+ 4/5.

I don't know how you guys attach the full clean PT pics. I saved it to the clipboard and then stuffed it into a Word file, lacking any better ideas. Please let me know if there's a better way.

I don't have a power meter - give me something that I can relate to. What was your time for the 30K?

Aztec said:

Correct about the PT.

I took Ric's Test of Suffering Capacity (aka MAP), and came up with 337w. That would estimate my 40TT at 242-259w. Of course, I took the MAP in road position, and then trained/rode the TT in a fairly aggressive, back-almost-flat aero position (reasonably comfy to me). I can't quantify the power loss, but I'd imagine it's material?

Re: intervals above. Are you suggesting that they should be a 40KTT level of exertion, done for 20 mins?

As Ric said, the TT position could impact your power production fairly significantly. Not necessarily though.

I'd still go with the 235w number as a starting point. And yes, the 20 min intervals would be done at 40k pace. Or to look at it another way, if you can complete 2x20 @ 235w, there's a very good chance that you could do a 1x60 at 235w (under race conditions, very motivated etc).

skydive69 said:

I don't have a power meter - give me something that I can relate to. What was your time for the 30K?

50:37. Some short, but momemtum-killing steep rises in road, no material wind, ~85*F.

beerco said:

As Ric said, the TT position could impact your power production fairly significantly. Not necessarily though.

I'd still go with the 235w number as a starting point. And yes, the 20 min intervals would be done at 40k pace. Or to look at it another way, if you can complete 2x20 @ 235w, there's a very good chance that you could do a 1x60 at 235w (under race conditions, very motivated etc).

Here's some follow up. I've done a few 2x20 workouts on a long uninterrupted climb w/ 5 mins between at about 150-175w (still climbing, just slowly). Yesterday I targeted 235w, and ended up with 247w for the 1st, then 235w for the second. While they were definitely hard work, it seemed well below that of the TT. I could've done a 3rd one without too much doubt.

I either had a very poor TT day 2 weeks ago, I've suddenly become more fit, and/or the aero position really saps my power (despite having done the majority of my training in it for a month). Oh, or climbing somehow makes it 'easier' to generate more power than flats.

Aztec said:

247w for the 1st, then 235w for the second. While they were definitely hard work, it seemed well below that of the TT. I could've done a 3rd one without too much doubt.

I either had a very poor TT day 2 weeks ago, I've suddenly become more fit, and/or the aero position really saps my power (despite having done the majority of my training in it for a month). Oh, or climbing somehow makes it 'easier' to generate more power than flats.

I'll bet your threshold is right around 240 then. Your poor TT 2 weeks ago was due to your going out too hard. Your 2x20's seemed easier because you were pacing better. Even then it sounds like you went out a little too hard for the first one.

I've got an interesting one coming up tomorrow (sat): a stage race this weekend has about a 2.8 mile prologue. Because I know the course very well, I'm estimating my time will be somewhere between 6:20 and 7:00. That's by far the shortest TT I've ever done....oh boy! Almost short enough to be called a pursuit!

beerco said:

I'll bet your threshold is right around 240 then. Your poor TT 2 weeks ago was due to your going out too hard. Your 2x20's seemed easier because you were pacing better. Even then it sounds like you went out a little too hard for the first one.

I've got an interesting one coming up tomorrow (sat): a stage race this weekend has about a 2.8 mile prologue. Because I know the course very well, I'm estimating my time will be somewhere between 6:20 and 7:00. That's by far the shortest TT I've ever done....oh boy! Almost short enough to be called a pursuit!

Wow, that IS short. The CTS field test is two 3 mile TTs, and I hovered just above 7 mins. That's a tough, seriously anaerobic-feeling distance! Good luck.

My pacing up the hill is better in the sense that the average is closer to the correct level, but I'm yo-yoing all over the place (i.e., power varies from <220 to >300 for moments at a time as I adjust to changes in slope, etc.). It's a miracle that the number comes out close to the target!

beerco said:

I'll bet your threshold is right around 240 then. Your poor TT 2 weeks ago was due to your going out too hard. Your 2x20's seemed easier because you were pacing better. Even then it sounds like you went out a little too hard for the first one.

I've got an interesting one coming up tomorrow (sat): a stage race this weekend has about a 2.8 mile prologue. Because I know the course very well, I'm estimating my time will be somewhere between 6:20 and 7:00. That's by far the shortest TT I've ever done....oh boy! Almost short enough to be called a pursuit!

i've done a couple of stage races with such short TTs and hill climbs that last only 2 or 3 minutes. all horrendously bad fun ;-)

good luck in your race

ric