Adaptations on recovery days?

[SolarEnergy]

I'm not sure of the timeframe either. I just know that I feel much stronger after a day off than after a work day. Maybe that's supercompensation at work or maybe it's just mental freshness. I don't know.

"Following the optimal training stimuli of a training lesson the recovery period, including the overcompensation phase, is approximately 24 hours." (Herberger, 1977).

"But Variation regarding the occurrence of overcompensation depends on the type and intensity of training." (Bompa 1999).

 

[whoawhoa]

I'm not sure of the timeframe either. I just know that I feel much stronger after a day off than after a work day. Maybe that's supercompensation at work or maybe it's just mental freshness. I don't know.

I feel stronger after a day off too, usually. I think physical "freshness" and supercompensation are different, though.

 

[WarrenG]

If you believe the adaptation theories about super-compensation, then it's probably better to have harder workouts followed by rest days, than somewhat easier workouts every single day. I'd think the easier workouts wouldn't be enough to force the super-compensation, and also there's never enough recovery time for the body to overcompensate anyway.

Good stuff.

I think a person needs pretty good fitness before using this approach, and some accurate experience and feedback to get it just right.

 

[frenchyge]

I feel stronger after a day off too, usually. I think physical "freshness" and supercompensation are different, though.

Well, if I don't take a day off, I don't get that stronger feeling, and after a couple (2-3) days off, the stronger feeling goes away for me. It's only during the stronger feeling period that I'm able to do more work than before, and that's my understanding of the benefit of supercompensation.

 

[frenchyge]

"Following the optimal training stimuli of a training lesson the recovery period, including the overcompensation phase, is approximately 24 hours." (Herberger, 1977).

"But Variation regarding the occurrence of overcompensation depends on the type and intensity of training." (Bompa 1999).

Cool. Thanks.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Well, if I don't take a day off, I don't get that stronger feeling, and after a couple (2-3) days off, the stronger feeling goes away for me. It's only during the stronger feeling period that I'm able to do more work than before, and that's my understanding of the benefit of supercompensation.

And that's what it is too.

Basically,
Supercompensation from one (or few) day(s), may take a day.
Supercompensation from one (or few) week(s), may take a week.
Supercompensation from one season, may take a good taper.

 

[WarrenG]

Basically,
Supercompensation from one (or few) day(s), may take a day.

Recovery isn't equal across all training stimulii. One day of high stress in an area could take 1-7+ days for supercompensation.

While you're recovering from one type of stimulus you could be working on another type of stimulus. Three hard days in a row- each providing high stress for (primarily) different components.

There is some info about this in Bompa's "Theory and Methodology of Training".

 

[RapDaddyo]

That sounds excellent.

I like to see that you're basing your judgement on accumulation of two days. And I also like that you take 2-3 days.

I actually do use judgment every so often. I just look carefully at the numbers and sometimes I trust the numbers more than how I feel. For example, even if I felt lousy on Monday I would probably do my normal workout if my weekend TSS was <500pts.

Bigger overloads, call for more rest. Fixed number of rest days per week? Throughout the year? hmmm well I don't know. Bigger weeks, should be followed by easier weeks.

That's the beauty of TSS. It quantifies stress, whether you look at it by day, week or longer. Over time, one comes to learn the TSS points that call for a day of rest.

But when you have a race on sunday, how does saturday look like?

If possible, I would ride Friday and take Saturday off. But, I would probably ride on Monday unless the race was >250 TSS points. I don't differentiate the ride that resulted in the stress -- training ride or race. My training rides result in more TSS points than most races.

 

[acoggan]

Recovery isn't equal across all training stimulii. One day of high stress in an area could take 1-7+ days for supercompensation.

That's not what the scientific literature shows. Specifically, the time-constant for the negative influence of training in Bannister's impulse-response model is comparable across a wide range of sports (e.g., running, cycling, swimming, weight lifting, field events in athletics) entailing a wide range of training stimuli.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Recovery isn't equal across all training stimulii. One day of high stress in an area could take 1-7+ days for supercompensation.

While you're recovering from one type of stimulus you could be working on another type of stimulus. Three hard days in a row- each providing high stress for (primarily) different components.

There is some info about this in Bompa's "Theory and Methodology of Training".

Thanks Warren.

That is why I write "may" take a day. But my example was just to illustrate that overcompensation is a short term concern, as well as a mid and long term one.

 

[acoggan]

If you believe the adaptation theories about super-compensation

"Supercompensation" is just a fancy word for the normal physiological adaptations to training that lead to improved performance. The molecular events responsible for such changes are set in motion essentially from the moment you start (or at least stop) exercising, although it takes some time before the full effect is evident, in part because you must overcome the acute fatiguing effects (e.g., depletion of glycogen) of the workout first.

 

[WarrenG]

Thanks Warren.

That is why I write "may" take a day. But my example was just to illustrate that overcompensation is a short term concern, as well as a mid and long term one.

I agree with "may" , and the long term examples.

 

[WarrenG]

That's not what the scientific literature shows. Specifically, the time-constant for the negative influence of training in Bannister's impulse-response model is comparable across a wide range of sports (e.g., running, cycling, swimming, weight lifting, field events in athletics) entailing a wide range of training stimuli.

Ah, so are you saying you believe that supercompensation from some L4 intervals will take the same length of time as significant training at VO2max or significant training of neuromuscular stimulii? Interesting. And I guess we can also assume that the current abilities of the rider will also not affect these times. Fascinating notions.

 

[whoawhoa]

Thanks guys. I had no idea that adaptations came so fast. I guess I'll keep more rest days in.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Thanks guys. I had no idea that adaptations came so fast. I guess I'll keep more rest days in.

Not everybody's schedule permits such a workout plan, but I have found that doing a 3-4 hr ride followed by a rest day works better (for me) than a couple of hours a day every day. I suppose the added benefit is that 2 hr races are no big deal relative to an average training ride.

 

[frenchyge]

"Supercompensation" is just a fancy word for the normal physiological adaptations to training that lead to improved performance.

Ok, so it's essentially "compensation" for coaches who are trying to compensate for something?

 

[frenchyge]

Not everybody's schedule permits such a workout plan, but I have found that doing a 3-4 hr ride followed by a rest day works better (for me) than a couple of hours a day every day. I suppose the added benefit is that 2 hr races are no big deal relative to an average training ride.

Agree. If I had more time on any given weeknight, I'd probably prefer to back down to 4 rides a week. Since I'm limited to 1.5 hr rides (2hr max) during the week, I ride 5 times.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Agree. If I had more time on any given weeknight, I'd probably prefer to back down to 4 rides a week. Since I'm limited to 1.5 hr rides (2hr max) during the week, I ride 5 times.

Practical reality trumps theory, but I wonder if theoretically there would be any adaptation differences between the two workout plans, assuming the minutes at each level is identical?

 

[whoawhoa]

Practical reality trumps theory, but I wonder if theoretically there would be any adaptation differences between the two workout plans,
assuming the minutes at each level is identical?

Interesting question. I assume that your body compensates faster to lower training loads?

 

[frenchyge]

Interesting question. I assume that your body compensates faster to lower training loads?

The articles I've seen seemed to indicate that a greater acute stress produces a longer recovery time and also a greater degree of over-compensation. IOW, the deeper you dig the hole, the longer it takes to rebuild, and the more the body overshoots the response.