Adaptations on recovery days?

[WarrenG]

The best example of the differences between cycling specific stress and weightlifting stress is too look at the tss from a sprint training session-which is the type of on-bike training that is closest to weight training. Tss will be very low.

Tss will be low because it (NP, TSS) does not measure neuromuscular stress as well and it can for more steady-state efforts. If you're doing a sprint training session in the usual ways you'll have to adjust your TSS to compensate, if it matters that much to you.

I think you're mostly right about the comparison between weight lifting and on the bike training, but you can do some very stressful and beneficial training on the bike for some events and it can feel similar to a weight training session. Likely to be less DOMS because that's moslty caused by the eccentric motions in some weight training, so it may not feel like you trained as hard as if you'd done similar training on the bike.

 

[jeff828]

Tss will be low because it (NP, TSS) does not measure neuromuscular stress as well and it can for more steady-state efforts. If you're doing a sprint training session in the usual ways you'll have to adjust your TSS to compensate, if it matters that much to you.

I think you're mostly right about the comparison between weight lifting and on the bike training, but you can do some very stressful and beneficial training on the bike for some events and it can feel similar to a weight training session. Likely to be less DOMS because that's moslty caused by the eccentric motions in some weight training, so it may not feel like you trained as hard as if you'd done similar training on the bike.

Maybe the weightlifting scenario is to extreme compared to cycling, but lets just look at the muscle as itself, Breaking it down anaerobically or to absolute muscle failure, not counting the way it is broken down or recovers from different sports. If it is broken down anaerobically its broken down anaerobically reguardless of sport and needs a specific amount of time to recover, whether your a 100meter sprinter or doing 30sec sprints on your bike. Does anyone agree a little to what Im saying.

 

[SolarEnergy]

I do agree a little.

 

[YMCA]

Maybe the weightlifting scenario is to extreme compared to cycling, but lets just look at the muscle as itself, Breaking it down anaerobically or to absolute muscle failure, not counting the way it is broken down or recovers from different sports. If it is broken down anaerobically its broken down anaerobically reguardless of sport and needs a specific amount of time to recover, whether your a 100meter sprinter or doing 30sec sprints on your bike. Does anyone agree a little to what Im saying.

I agree totally with this. That is why I only ride hard when my body is ready and take many full days off, instead of "recovery" rides. I do four rides per week, with 2 of those days at full intensity and 2 days at high endurance paces w/jumps and what. The other 3 days are off. The 3 days off work wayyy better than adding more specific stress to already taxed muscle fibers.

I used to ride 7-10x per week, totaling 20-25 hours often. Never, ever feeling recovered, due to a full life of work, family, etc. Now I do 10-12 hours in 4 rides, concentrating on quality only. It has brought me to my best level in years and has me motivated to train/race after a day off.

I never believed this could work, as most top-level guys always said, "you gotta get the miles in", but hey, I'm a cat1 and am riding like one again at 41 years old, so I think I'll stick with the new strategy.

Enjoyed my day off yesterday after a hard training race on Saturday, now it's time to go hit out again on this rainy Monday.

ps- I still do believe in the ocassional "big" week or stage race every 6 weeks or so. The benefits are tremendous, but recovery is paramount.

 

[jeff828]

I agree totally with this. That is why I only ride hard when my body is ready and take many full days off, instead of "recovery" rides. I do four rides per week, with 2 of those days at full intensity and 2 days at high endurance paces w/jumps and what. The other 3 days are off. The 3 days off work wayyy better than adding more specific stress to already taxed muscle fibers.

I used to ride 7-10x per week, totaling 20-25 hours often. Never, ever feeling recovered, due to a full life of work, family, etc. Now I do 10-12 hours in 4 rides, concentrating on quality only. It has brought me to my best level in years and has me motivated to train/race after a day off.

I never believed this could work, as most top-level guys always said, "you gotta get the miles in", but hey, I'm a cat1 and am riding like one again at 41 years old, so I think I'll stick with the new strategy.

Enjoyed my day off yesterday after a hard training race on Saturday, now it's time to go hit out again on this rainy Monday.

ps- I still do believe in the ocassional "big" week or stage race every 6 weeks or so. The benefits are tremendous, but recovery is paramount.

Exactly what Im doing, 4 days total. (mon, tue, thur, sat)
2 days hard 2 days tempo endurance with complete days off. I have noticed the best results ever, wish I found this out years ago but like you everyone told me I have to ride a lot, was doing 6 days years ago. I also notice the "always motivated" part, I think that is very important because usually when you mind is motivated the legs are usually good, when the mind is so, so, not really 100% we usually go out anyway & for me the legs are usually not real good. I have analyzed this about myself and learned how to keep highly motivated all the time, I might have 3-4 days all year when Im not motivated. I also keep a spreadsheet on how I felt that day of riding & mark a 1, 5, 7, or (10 being strong) next to my workout log so I can highlight them to show a graph, so I can see what caused me or lead me to ride bad (1) And not to reapeat. Attached below is Jan-Oct 2005 only 21 days bad

Hey do you come up for the Greenville, SC series or Rock Hill & Twilight?

 

[mac_220]

I don't have a great deal to add but thanks for a great thread. Really interesting

Regards,

Mac

 

[YMCA]

Hey do you come up for the Greenville, SC series or Rock Hill & Twilight?

Nope. Just doing the Florida stuff which starts up on Feb 11-12 and runs pretty consistent through early June. I should make it out of state a few times, but it won't be for Athens or any other night time stuff. Scary nervous with my old eyes. We have a couple down here and I just opt to do the masters during the day and watch my friends at night.

Anyway, glad to hear someone else on the 4x a week bandwagon. It is real nice not having to worry about getting out on my off days. I'll see how this spring goes, but going off my form already, I'd imagine 4 days a week (10-12 hours) is just perfect.

 

[whoawhoa]

Maybe the weightlifting scenario is to extreme compared to cycling, but lets just look at the muscle as itself, Breaking it down anaerobically or to absolute muscle failure, not counting the way it is broken down or recovers from different sports. If it is broken down anaerobically its broken down anaerobically reguardless of sport and needs a specific amount of time to recover, whether your a 100meter sprinter or doing 30sec sprints on your bike. Does anyone agree a little to what Im saying.

I disagree, because I don't think muscle is being broken down by traditional endurance cycling.

 

[WarrenG]

I disagree, because I don't think muscle is being broken down by traditional endurance cycling.

I'm not sure, but maybe he means "fatigued" when he says "broken down". ???

 

[jeff828]

I'm not sure, but maybe he means "fatigued" when he says "broken down". ???

I mean if your a runner doing all out 100meter sprints until your legs are fried or going out for a 2-3 hour ride and sprinting your buddy for every town sign & hammering up every hill to try and drop him until your legs are fried. I dont mean at threshold on the climbs.
Dont you think after all this anaerobic work your muscles would need the 48 hours required to recover fully regaurdless of what sport, before you can get another 100% training day in?

 

[postal_bag]

I routinely do three hard days followed by two easy or off days. I often find that before bed at the end of the first recovery day, I usually feel pretty good and am almost tempted to plan to go hard again on the next day. On the second recovery day, however, I start to feel more of the effects of the previous block. I use this to help visualize the recovery and "supercompensation" process. I have no problem keeping the power levels up on successive hard days, thanks to the powermeter. If I were going by RPE it would probably be impossible. The real challenge for most people is probably forcing yourself to take the second recovery day.

 

[SolarEnergy]

I mean if your a runner doing all out 100meter sprints until your legs are fried or going out for a 2-3 hour ride and sprinting your buddy for every town sign & hammering up every hill to try and drop him until your legs are fried. I dont mean at threshold on the climbs.
Dont you think after all this anaerobic work your muscles would need the 48 hours required to recover fully regaurdless of what sport, before you can get another 100% training day in?

Yes and no.

This is a simplified example. A good one to follow. But things are a bit more complicated than that.

First, you can't compare running with cycling. A runner performing 100s all out, will basically put 3 to 4 times his body weight on each leg (ankle, knee, hips, lower back, and such), on each stride.

For instance, when you are a serious runner, you take at least a month off competition after running a marathon. This, even if the marathon's duration is less than 3hr30min. In cycling, you can do a 3:30 long race one week, and do an other one the next week.

 

[dhk]

Yes and no.

This is a simplified example. A good one to follow. But things are a bit more complicated than that.

First, you can't compare running with cycling. A runner performing 100s all out, will basically put 3 to 4 times his body weight on each leg (ankle, knee, hips, lower back, and such), on each stride.

For instance, when you are a serious runner, you take at least a month off competition after running a marathon. This, even if the marathon's duration is less than 3hr30min. In cycling, you can do a 3:30 long race one week, and do an other one the next week.

Believe it's hard to generalize about recovery. The Kenyan that won our local marathon in Dec had just won a big marathon in Memphis one week before. He was about 5 minutes slower in our race, but still under 2:30 if I recall correctly. The newspaper story emphasized how impressive result this was coming off a big win just the week before.

Would guess some have read the Performance Plan book by LA and Carmichael. It contains a table that shows typical recovery times based upon the time spent at or above threshold levels. EG, up to 120 minutes of "tempo" intensity says 24-36 hours, same as 60-90 minutes at lactate threshold. 45 min or more above LT is said to require 36-48 hours, or "two days of easy riding".

The book goes on to talk about Lance's recovery rides, how he won two classics in 1996 which were only 3 days apart. Also Carmichael gives his advice for one easy recovery week every month. It states that Lance did 1-2 hours daily of easy spinning on his recovery week.

Whether you agree with the book or not, I'd guess that recovery, like response to training load, is individual.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Believe it's hard to generalize about recovery. The Kenyan that won our local marathon in Dec had just won a big marathon in Memphis one week before. He was about 5 minutes slower in our race, but still under 2:30 if I recall correctly. The newspaper story emphasized how impressive result this was coming off a big win just the week before.

Would guess some have read the Performance Plan book by LA and Carmichael. It contains a table that shows typical recovery times based upon the time spent at or above threshold levels. EG, up to 120 minutes of "tempo" intensity says 24-36 hours, same as 60-90 minutes at lactate threshold. 45 min or more above LT is said to require 36-48 hours, or "two days of easy riding".

The book goes on to talk about Lance's recovery rides, how he won two classics in 1996 which were only 3 days apart. Also Carmichael gives his advice for one easy recovery week every month. It states that Lance did 1-2 hours daily of easy spinning on his recovery week.

Whether you agree with the book or not, I'd guess that recovery, like response to training load, is individual.

All that is very true. That doesn't change the fact that for the same individual, e.g. a triathlete, recovery requirement varies depending on the activity.

The Kenyans are a bit special. I know, I have followed professionnal marathon swimmers, same principle. They race for money. That is between 6 and 10 hours of swim, in either salted, or freezing cold water. One of our swimmers have done 5 consecutive marathons one year, weeks in weeks out. When you collect 3 or 4k per race, well you don't say no. At the other end of the food chain, are some Kenyan families, that rely on that money to live.

But in an international amateur event, those who race for money often loose the marathon, both guys and girls.

 

[SolarEnergy]

thanks
I'm sorry

What the hell was that. Is this what's the "Spam" button for?

 

[YMCA]

The Kenyan that won our local marathon in Dec had just won a big marathon in Memphis one week before. He was about 5 minutes slower in our race, but still under 2:30 if I recall correctly. The newspaper story emphasized how impressive result this was coming off a big win just the week before.

Yes, but a 2:30 marathon, or even 2:20 might be a moderate cruising speed for that particular athlete. Without ever having to go too deep, he could recover and do another one the next week. Recovery would not be perfect, but it would not be nearly as challenging as if he had gone full bore in the first one.

Cycling, of course is a different animal. No traumatic pavement pounding means we can do many back to back mod-hard days. Only problem is when a cyclist go real deep for any appreciable length of time, it will require more than 24 hours for the muscle to repair itself.

And as a racer, I must do hard efforts to prepare for the demands of a bike race, so that means taking a day off after any "meaty" ride. At most, I could do an hour in zone zero (below level 1).