Al frames: "squeeze spacing" okay?

Ryan Cousineau said:

So here I am, with a bit of a dilemma:

I want, for no very good reason (okay, vertical dropouts) to upgrade
from my current very funny CX bike (Japanese-made early-80s Canadian
"Bianchi"😉 to something cheap. I don't need any parts, so a
frame-upgrading we go.

The other part of this is I want to be able to use the same wheels as I
use all summer on my road bike, so 130mm spacing is a must.

Many of the cheap frames with vertical dropouts are aluminum*, and a
surprising number are 135mm (mountain bike) spaced. Great, I suppose,
for the 29er crowd, not so great for me.

Planet X Bikes explicitly says their frame can be squeezed to 130mm:

http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/road/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_
op=view_page&PAGE_id=158

Nashbar and NYCBikes are silent on the issue.

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

Thanks,

Add 2mm of spacers to the 130mm wheel, on each side, no need to do
anything but adjust the hub bearings..ride and then when ya want to put
them back onto the 130mm frame, just take 'em out.

Quoted message said:

*please don't let this thread turn into a metal/alloy/whatever flamewar.
These frames are all pretty much 6061 or 7005 Al-plus-something alloys,
but it's not like mainstream "Aluminum" bikes of the last 15 years have
been made of anything else; I don't even think you can find oddball
glued frames except the Vitus 997 and one or two other freaks.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
riding it); and you should probably just go for it.

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

Chalo

Chalo said:

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

To elaborate, they did not crack at the seatstays either. All the
cracking occurred underneath the seat binder or underneath the head
tube/down tube joint. Neither sort of failure could IMO be attributed
even in part to springing the rear stays.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Chalo said:

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

To elaborate, they did not crack at the seatstays either. All the
cracking occurred underneath the seat binder or underneath the head
tube/down tube joint. Neither sort of failure could IMO be attributed
even in part to springing the rear stays.

Well, how do we not know that the problem was not referred pain?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referred_pain ;-)

--
JT
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In article <[email hidden]>,

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

So here I am, with a bit of a dilemma:

I want, for no very good reason (okay, vertical dropouts) to upgrade
from my current very funny CX bike (Japanese-made early-80s Canadian
"Bianchi"😉 to something cheap. I don't need any parts, so a
frame-upgrading we go.

The other part of this is I want to be able to use the same wheels as I
use all summer on my road bike, so 130mm spacing is a must.

Many of the cheap frames with vertical dropouts are aluminum*, and a
surprising number are 135mm (mountain bike) spaced. Great, I suppose,
for the 29er crowd, not so great for me.

Planet X Bikes explicitly says their frame can be squeezed to 130mm:

http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/road/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_
op=view_page&PAGE_id=158

Nashbar and NYCBikes are silent on the issue.

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

Thanks,

Add 2mm of spacers to the 130mm wheel, on each side, no need to do
anything but adjust the hub bearings..ride and then when ya want to put
them back onto the 130mm frame, just take 'em out.

A compellingly simple idea. I'm pretty lazy, and the fact this would
defeat my basic desire to quickly switch wheels between bikes (of
course, I would usually be moving tires around regardless...) is a major
point against.

But I could put 1.25mm spacers on each side, and build 132.5mm wheels....

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

Chalo wrote:

To elaborate, they did not crack at the seatstays either. All the
cracking occurred underneath the seat binder or underneath the head
tube/down tube joint. Neither sort of failure could IMO be attributed
even in part to springing the rear stays.

Well, how do we not know that the problem was not referred pain?

I have considered the possibility that the cracks were the work of
chainstay mites that had been displaced from their homes by mechanical
stresses. A preventive application of J.P. Weigle's Frame Saver &
Delousing Unguent might have saved me such misfortune.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
riding it); and you should probably just go for it.

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

Chalo

Hmm, interesting. I wasn't aware modern aluminum frames could be
re-spaced due to heat treatment (brittle, and you'd need some *serious*
hydraulics for a permanent set, if it didn't crack). Mind sharing what
make this frame was?

damyth said:

Chalo said:

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

Chalo

Hmm, interesting. I wasn't aware modern aluminum frames could be
re-spaced due to heat treatment (brittle, and you'd need some *serious*
hydraulics for a permanent set, if it didn't crack). Mind sharing what
make this frame was?

I stipulated that the frames were sprung open to fit over wider hubs,
not permanently bent ("cold set"😉 to a new width. They were '80s
Cannondale MTBs with 22mm diameter chainstays.

Yes, muscling the frame to open that much wider upon wheel insertion
was a hassle.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
riding it); and you should probably just go for it.

i agree. i've also cold set an aluminum frame with no apparent ill effects.

Quoted message said:

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

Chalo

Ryan Cousineau said:

A compellingly simple idea. I'm pretty lazy, and the fact this would
defeat my basic desire to quickly switch wheels between bikes (of
course, I would usually be moving tires around regardless...) is a major
point against.

But I could put 1.25mm spacers on each side, and build 132.5mm wheels....

If you can find a frame with 132.5mm spacing you can use both 130mm and
135mm hubs without having to resort to spacers. Specialized does this
with their Allez frames. I'm sure others do too. This is only likely to
work well with all metal rear ends. i.e. no carbon stays.

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
riding it); and you should probably just go for it.

i agree. i've also cold set an aluminum frame with no apparent ill
effects.

Ever done a Cannondale? I just bought an '86 that I figured I'd just
spread to get the wheel in -- impossible (or I'm getting really weak).
Looks like it's a cold set or make it a fixer.

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
riding it); and you should probably just go for it.

i agree. i've also cold set an aluminum frame with no apparent ill effects.

Quoted message said:

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

Chalo

I'd appreciate if you could share exactly how you were able to cold set
the rear triangle of aluminum frame. If you can outline the tools and
procedure used, and in particular, the make of the frame (and the alloy
6xxx or 7xxx, if known), that would be great.

Thanks!

damyth said:

jim beam said:

Chalo said:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
> these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
> vertical-dropout frame real cheap?
I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
riding it); and you should probably just go for it.

i agree. i've also cold set an aluminum frame with no apparent ill effects.

Quoted message said:

I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
not at the chainstays or dropouts.

Chalo

I'd appreciate if you could share exactly how you were able to cold set
the rear triangle of aluminum frame. If you can outline the tools and
procedure used, and in particular, the make of the frame (and the alloy
6xxx or 7xxx, if known), that would be great.

Thanks!

i used a plank of wood across the axle end of the triangle and "bounced"
it into position with a 4lb lump hammer. crude, and you have to be
careful to not over-do it, but it seems to have worked ok. i started
with the sheldon brown method, but was afraid of taking it too far.

jim beam said:

damyth said:

jim beam said:

Chalo wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
>> these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
>> vertical-dropout frame real cheap?
> I'll offer my not-particularly-thoughtful opinion that it's no big
> deal; that's not a lot of stress to impose on your frame (compared to
> riding it); and you should probably just go for it.
i agree. i've also cold set an aluminum frame with no apparent ill
effects.

> I rode aluminum frames sprung open (not cold set) from 126mm to 135mm
> for years with no apparent ill effects. They eventually cracked, but
> not at the chainstays or dropouts.
>
> Chalo
>

I'd appreciate if you could share exactly how you were able to cold set
the rear triangle of aluminum frame. If you can outline the tools and
procedure used, and in particular, the make of the frame (and the alloy
6xxx or 7xxx, if known), that would be great.

Thanks!

i used a plank of wood across the axle end of the triangle and "bounced"
it into position with a 4lb lump hammer. crude, and you have to be
careful to not over-do it, but it seems to have worked ok. i started
with the sheldon brown method, but was afraid of taking it too far.

whoops, forgot, it's allegedly 7005. cheapo nashbar.

Ryan Cousineau said:

So here I am, with a bit of a dilemma:

I want, for no very good reason (okay, vertical dropouts) to upgrade
from my current very funny CX bike (Japanese-made early-80s Canadian
"Bianchi"😉 to something cheap. I don't need any parts, so a
frame-upgrading we go.

The other part of this is I want to be able to use the same wheels as I
use all summer on my road bike, so 130mm spacing is a must.

cannondale optimo 9? i've been considering one.

Quoted message said:

Many of the cheap frames with vertical dropouts are aluminum*, and a
surprising number are 135mm (mountain bike) spaced. Great, I suppose,
for the 29er crowd, not so great for me.

Planet X Bikes explicitly says their frame can be squeezed to 130mm:

http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/road/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_
op=view_page&PAGE_id=158

Nashbar and NYCBikes are silent on the issue.

Any thoughtful opinions on the idea of squeezing (NOT cold-setting)
these frames to fit 130mm OLN wheels? Any offers to sell me a 130mm
vertical-dropout frame real cheap?

Thanks,

*please don't let this thread turn into a metal/alloy/whatever flamewar.
These frames are all pretty much 6061 or 7005 Al-plus-something alloys,
but it's not like mainstream "Aluminum" bikes of the last 15 years have
been made of anything else; I don't even think you can find oddball
glued frames except the Vitus 997 and one or two other freaks.

damyth said:

jim beam said:

i agree. i've also cold set an aluminum frame with no apparent ill effects.

I'd appreciate if you could share exactly how you were able to cold set
the rear triangle of aluminum frame. If you can outline the tools and
procedure used, and in particular, the make of the frame (and the alloy
6xxx or 7xxx, if known), that would be great.

Aluminum is just metal, and the mild alloys (e.g. 6061, 7005) used in
most aluminum bike frames are even reasonably ductile. The main reason
to refrain from small amounts of cold setting is that the stays of some
aluminum bikes are very stiff due to their large diameter, and that a
high amount of force may be required to accomplish the permanent set is
difficult to control precisely. It's also difficult to anchor a frame
against high amounts of bending force without subjecting it to the risk
of dents or crimps elsewhere on the frame (where it is being held).

Chalo

Chalo said:

Aluminum is just metal, and the mild alloys (e.g. 6061, 7005) used in
most aluminum bike frames are even reasonably ductile. The main reason
to refrain from small amounts of cold setting is that the stays of some
aluminum bikes are very stiff due to their large diameter...

Speaking of large diameter Cannondale chainstays:

When my family and I rode coast to coast a few years ago, I started
with nominal 37 mm tires (actual width, closer to 32mm) on my C'dale
touring bike, since part of our planned route was off-road, on the C&O
trail. They fit fine at the seat stays, but barely cleared the
chainstays, which had between 36 & 37 mm clearance. Still, I started
the ride with those tires.

Oddly enough, the tires grew; after a couple weeks, they'd expanded to
where they scraped the chainstays. I didn't know tires would grow. I
switched to nominal 32 mm tires for the rest of the trip...

But I wondered, has anyone tried crushing the inside surface of those
stays to gain clearance for a tire size? The 6061 aluminum has a
ductility of about 17%, which isn't bad, but I was afraid to try it.

Much later in the ride, we were hosted by a guy who had ridden a
similar Cannondale on a very long tour, but his involved lots of dirt &
gravel roads of some sort. He showed me the frame. Abrasion from mud
and stones had literally worn holes in the chainstays at the spots I'd
thought about crushing! He had no problems riding the bike even with
the holes. Seems like you don't need a lot of strength in that area.

So, has anyone taken a vise to Cannondale chainstays?

- Frank Krygowski

On 21 Dec 2006 16:04:25 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

When my family and I rode coast to coast a few years ago, I started
with nominal 37 mm tires (actual width, closer to 32mm) on my C'dale
touring bike, since part of our planned route was off-road, on the C&O
trail. They fit fine at the seat stays, but barely cleared the
chainstays, which had between 36 & 37 mm clearance. Still, I started
the ride with those tires.

Oddly enough, the tires grew; after a couple weeks, they'd expanded to
where they scraped the chainstays. I didn't know tires would grow. I
switched to nominal 32 mm tires for the rest of the trip...

[snip]

Dear Frank,

Do you have any idea why those tires grew?

Do all your tires grow?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On 21 Dec 2006 16:04:25 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

When my family and I rode coast to coast a few years ago, I started
with nominal 37 mm tires (actual width, closer to 32mm) on my C'dale
touring bike, since part of our planned route was off-road, on the C&O
trail. They fit fine at the seat stays, but barely cleared the
chainstays, which had between 36 & 37 mm clearance. Still, I started
the ride with those tires.

Oddly enough, the tires grew; after a couple weeks, they'd expanded to
where they scraped the chainstays. I didn't know tires would grow. I
switched to nominal 32 mm tires for the rest of the trip...

[snip]

Dear Frank,

Do you have any idea why those tires grew?

Do all your tires grow?

I don't know. They were Conti Top Touring, and we did have some
sidewall problems later in the trip. And I might have been
overinflating them, since I wasn't using a gage at the trip's
beginning. I don't know if all that was related.

OTOH, there was that Viagra brand Tire Scrub I bought from a spammer...

- Frank Krygowski