Bad Weld/ Frame Replacement Claim...Valid?

Franz Bestuchev said:

Jeff Starr said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Franz Bestuchev <[email hidden]> wrote:

> A welder friend of mine spotted this hole in the weld on my frame,
> I'm about to take it to the Trek dealer to get it evaluated. Is this
> a valid claim?
>
> http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/
Well, since we can't see the picture anymore, who knows? And I am not
sure that *anyone* could tell if a pinhole in a weld is of concern from
a photo. Take it in to the dealer and see what they say- you've got
nothing to lose except some time.

I think looking at the photo, you could tell that it wasn't an issue.
It is strictly cosmetic. From the photo, it could be a spec of dirt or
a pinhole. Either way, not a structural concern.

Life is Good!
Jeff

http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/weld.jpg

A spot of dirt would rub off and I wouldn't have posted about that. It's
a small hole in the joint.

Looking at that, I see no serious defect. This type of weld
irregularity is common in fact, and would only be a cause for concern
in extreme-stress pressure vessel and aerospace applications, not in a
bike frame. It's probably just the result of a [censored] bubble. The fact
that there's a visual pinhole at the surface does not prove much; the
hole would have to be just the top of a much larger defect before it
would be any cause for concern, and had it been such, the failure you
fear would already have taken place if there was going to be a failure
at all. With five years in service, I'd say that the frame's
reliability has been established. I'd dot some touch-up paint over it
and ride. It's not going to cause a failure IMO.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

G.T. said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

>>>Obviously pride of ownership, personalization, and some memorable
>>>rides are what makes a bicycle special. It's silly for me to criticize
>>>Soma, and it's just as silly to do it to Trek and LeMond, based on
>>>personality. At one time Trek was a small company, they did a lot of
>>>things well, and became a big company.
>>
>>And does anyone there even ride any more?
>
>
>If I laid out just how absurd a question that is, and pointed out how
>many people at Trek & LeMond & Klein & Fisher ride

So how many?

4?

Greg

On a day they're having a contest, yes, 4 might be the correct number.

What's a "contest" day? That's when they're competing to see who can ride in
on the coldest-possible day. Minimum 25 mile commute. A couple years ago, it
was something like -22F, straight (no windchill factored in).

What's the coldest day you've commuted to work?

38 degrees in shorts and t-shirt. That's why I live in So Cal, I don't
have to commute in -22F weather.

Keep promoting your megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoth of
a vendor all you want

Very well said!

Quoted message said:

I still won't be buying TLKF.

Trek, LeMond, Klein and Fisher; once makers of interesting, worthwhile
bicycles all. And now....

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Franz Bestuchev said:

Jeff Starr said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Franz Bestuchev
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> A welder friend of mine spotted this hole in the weld on my
> frame, I'm about to take it to the Trek dealer to get it
> evaluated. Is this a valid claim?
>
> http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/
Well, since we can't see the picture anymore, who knows? And I am
not sure that *anyone* could tell if a pinhole in a weld is of
concern from a photo. Take it in to the dealer and see what they
say- you've got nothing to lose except some time.

I think looking at the photo, you could tell that it wasn't an
issue. It is strictly cosmetic. From the photo, it could be a spec
of dirt or a pinhole. Either way, not a structural concern.

Life is Good! Jeff

http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/weld.jpg

A spot of dirt would rub off and I wouldn't have posted about that.
It's a small hole in the joint.

That's better. Looks like a hole. Question is whether it's a hole in
the weld or just a hole in the paint; and if it's a hole in the weld,
whether it is significant. Can you stick some kind of probe, like a
dental pick, into it any significant distance? If it's just a hole in
the paint, e.g., a bubble, then no problem. I'd expect in that case
that you couldn't insert the probe more than the thickness of the paint.
If it goes in deeper, I'd have a chat with the local dealer about it.

Phil said:

Franz Bestuchev said:

Phil said:

Franz Bestuchev wrote:
> Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>> philcycles wrote:
>>> Franz Bestuchev wrote:
>>>> A welder friend of mine spotted this hole in the weld on my
>>>> frame, I'm about to take it to the Trek dealer to get it
>>>> evaluated. Is this a valid claim?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/
>>> Jeez, use some common sense. It's a tiny pin hole. It should have
>>> been filled before paint. You can do it-get some spot putty at the
>>> auto parts store. fill it and touch it up. It will affect the
>>> frame not one whit.
>>> Phil Brown
>> For the love of God, where is this friggin picture?!?!?
> I had to take the pictures down due to bandwidth concerns - it's not
> my space online just a courtesy from a friend who needed the space
> back.
Is there another place you could put it?

http://www.imagevenue.com/ is a popular free image-posting site.

http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/weld.jpg

That's as representative as any of the other angles I shot pics of
were.

Thank you. I would have brought it up at the time of purchase. As a bike
shop employee, I would be inclined to believe it to be a trivial detail. If
I were a customer, I would want my LBS to take care of me. I say ask and
see how willing they are to work with you.

The problem is that the shop I bought it from is 1200 miles away. I
should have noticed it at the time I bought it - but I guess I was just
too excited, I really can't say.

I then got in a car wreck that put me out of commission for the summer,
and moved into an apartment in an area where there was just no biking
available.

I've since moved to a spot that's excellent for riding and have been car
free since last oct and been riding around on an older mountain bike all
winter. It finally got warm enough that I brought this bike out and
noticed the defect while giving it a thorough cleaning.

Then, just an hour or two after shooting this pic. for documentation to
take to my local Trek rep (because it *really* is pretty obvious that
this bike has less than 500 miles)...I skidded out and banged things up.

So I'm just going to see if I can find some paint to "fill in" the hole.

G.T. said:

"Sorni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well first of all, "rationalization" doesn't necessarily mean
dishonesty or even hypocrisy. (IOW, I didn't say or imply that you
DID promote anything -- other than Leno some time or other maybe?)
However, if you're bad-mouthing Mike for promoting the bikes he
sells while at the same time sucking off the teat of your
"megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoth of an employer",
then perhaps a principled argument isn't your best tact. (Again,
/in this context/.) Besides, I'll bet if you owned an NBC affiliate
you'd promote the hell out of "your" programming.

But I don't. I'm so far down the chain of command that I'm grateful
that I don't have to cheerlead for a product I don't believe in.
When I get closer to that point when I need to start cheerleading
maybe I'll be in a better position to change jobs.

You once begged me to watch Blossom (don't deny it!); what about THAT, Mr.
T?!? (Do I /need/ a smiley thing here?!?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A few years ago, I was in the market for my first road bike since
high school. Had absolutely no preference as to brand, frame
material, color, whatever. I ended up buying a Klein Q-carbon Team
because it fit me and my budget the best of anything I test rode --
AND the gorgeous paint job didn't hurt, either.

Then a month or two ago, I decided to by a Madone SL frameset
because it was drastically discounted (nearly 50%). If I had a
principled objection to "TLKF" as you call 'em, then I'd've passed
no matter how good a deal -- OR I'd have had to make a decision
balancing my "ethics" versus my "bike lust" (?). Similarly, you
don't HAVE to work for G.E. -- although granted you'd probably have
to accept less money and benefits to work for some /rebel/ little
outfit. So you make a choice based on what's best for you...just
like Mike does selling bikes (although in his case he has no
conflict because he truly believes in his products).

Point taken regarding Mike's point of view.

However, comparing the choice of buying a certain product with the
choice of employer is quite a stretch. It's very hard for an IT
person over the age of 40 to change employers so my choices would be
drastically different while your choices of bicycles aren't all that
different.

Quoted message said:

That's what I meant by rationalization.

Rationalization smashinalization.

Well there's always that.

Bill "when megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoths collide" S.

Werehatrack said:

Franz Bestuchev said:

Jeff Starr said:

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:50:27 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> In article <[email hidden]>,
> Franz Bestuchev <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> A welder friend of mine spotted this hole in the weld on my frame,
>> I'm about to take it to the Trek dealer to get it evaluated. Is this
>> a valid claim?
>>
>> http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/
> Well, since we can't see the picture anymore, who knows? And I am not
> sure that *anyone* could tell if a pinhole in a weld is of concern from
> a photo. Take it in to the dealer and see what they say- you've got
> nothing to lose except some time.
I think looking at the photo, you could tell that it wasn't an issue.
It is strictly cosmetic. From the photo, it could be a spec of dirt or
a pinhole. Either way, not a structural concern.

Life is Good!
Jeff

http://www.userealsugar.com/lemond_weld/weld.jpg

A spot of dirt would rub off and I wouldn't have posted about that. It's
a small hole in the joint.

Looking at that, I see no serious defect. This type of weld
irregularity is common in fact, and would only be a cause for concern
in extreme-stress pressure vessel and aerospace applications, not in a
bike frame. It's probably just the result of a [censored] bubble. The fact
that there's a visual pinhole at the surface does not prove much; the
hole would have to be just the top of a much larger defect before it
would be any cause for concern, and had it been such, the failure you
fear would already have taken place if there was going to be a failure
at all. With five years in service, I'd say that the frame's
reliability has been established. I'd dot some touch-up paint over it
and ride. It's not going to cause a failure IMO.

Except it doesn't have 5 years in service. Between a car wreck, living
situation and other issues the bike has less than 500 miles.

Franz Bestuchev said:

Except it doesn't have 5 years in service. Between a car wreck, living
situation and other issues the bike has less than 500 miles.

I still wouldn't worry about it. Small voids occur in welds all the
time; most of them simply don't intersect the surface. They aren't as
common in inert-gas welds, but they are often still present even
there. It's far less likely to be a durability or failure issue than
the effects of heating of the tubing that are caused by the welding
process itself.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

So you make a choice based on what's best for you...just like Mike does
selling bikes (although in his case he has no conflict because he truly
believes in his products).

Yeah, I'm stupid that way! :>😉.

(Kinda sorta stolen from a Calvin & Hobbes strip)

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Sorni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

Sorni said:

G.T. wrote:

> Sorni wrote:
>
>> G.T. wrote:

>>> Keep promoting your megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy
>>> behemoth of a vendor all you want, I still won't be buying TLKF.

>> Um, Greg, you still working for G.E.? :-D

> I work for a rebel unit of G.E.

Well, NBC /is/ biased, I'll give you that!

Yes, I am ashamed of working for such a right wing media corporation.
I'll give you that.

Good stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Regardless, I don't go around
> promoting my megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoth of an
> employer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Um, OK.

Bill "sure sounds like rationalization (in this context)" S.

Quoted message said:

So show me where I've promoted a GE refrigerator or an NBC tv show.

Well first of all, "rationalization" doesn't necessarily mean dishonesty
or even hypocrisy. (IOW, I didn't say or imply that you DID promote
anything -- other than Leno some time or other maybe?) However, if you're
bad-mouthing Mike for promoting the bikes he sells while at the same time
sucking off the teat of your "megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy
behemoth of an employer", then perhaps a principled argument isn't your
best tact. (Again, /in this context/.) Besides, I'll bet if you owned an
NBC affiliate you'd promote the hell out of "your" programming.

A few years ago, I was in the market for my first road bike since high
school. Had absolutely no preference as to brand, frame material, color,
whatever. I ended up buying a Klein Q-carbon Team because it fit me and
my budget the best of anything I test rode -- AND the gorgeous paint job
didn't hurt, either.

Then a month or two ago, I decided to by a Madone SL frameset because it
was drastically discounted (nearly 50%). If I had a principled objection
to "TLKF" as you call 'em, then I'd've passed no matter how good a deal --
OR I'd have had to make a decision balancing my "ethics" versus my "bike
lust" (?). Similarly, you don't HAVE to work for G.E. -- although granted
you'd probably have to accept less money and benefits to work for some
/rebel/ little outfit. So you make a choice based on what's best for
you...just like Mike does selling bikes (although in his case he has no
conflict because he truly believes in his products).

That's what I meant by rationalization.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I don't. I'm so far down the chain of command that I'm grateful
that I don't have to cheerlead for a product I don't believe in.
When I get closer to that point when I need to start cheerleading
maybe I'll be in a better position to change jobs.

You once begged me to watch Blossom (don't deny it!); what about THAT, Mr.
T?!? (Do I /need/ a smiley thing here?!?)

That can't be true. Please. Tell me it's not true! I need to maintain some
sense of GT's right to exist as a human being, but that's crossing over the
line.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Sorni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

"Sorni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well first of all, "rationalization" doesn't necessarily mean
dishonesty or even hypocrisy. (IOW, I didn't say or imply that you
DID promote anything -- other than Leno some time or other maybe?)
However, if you're bad-mouthing Mike for promoting the bikes he
sells while at the same time sucking off the teat of your
"megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoth of an employer",
then perhaps a principled argument isn't your best tact. (Again,
/in this context/.) Besides, I'll bet if you owned an NBC affiliate
you'd promote the hell out of "your" programming.

But I don't. I'm so far down the chain of command that I'm grateful
that I don't have to cheerlead for a product I don't believe in.
When I get closer to that point when I need to start cheerleading
maybe I'll be in a better position to change jobs.

You once begged me to watch Blossom (don't deny it!); what about THAT, Mr.
T?!? (Do I /need/ a smiley thing here?!?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A few years ago, I was in the market for my first road bike since
high school. Had absolutely no preference as to brand, frame
material, color, whatever. I ended up buying a Klein Q-carbon Team
because it fit me and my budget the best of anything I test rode --
AND the gorgeous paint job didn't hurt, either.

Then a month or two ago, I decided to by a Madone SL frameset
because it was drastically discounted (nearly 50%). If I had a
principled objection to "TLKF" as you call 'em, then I'd've passed
no matter how good a deal -- OR I'd have had to make a decision
balancing my "ethics" versus my "bike lust" (?). Similarly, you
don't HAVE to work for G.E. -- although granted you'd probably have
to accept less money and benefits to work for some /rebel/ little
outfit. So you make a choice based on what's best for you...just
like Mike does selling bikes (although in his case he has no
conflict because he truly believes in his products).

Point taken regarding Mike's point of view.

However, comparing the choice of buying a certain product with the
choice of employer is quite a stretch. It's very hard for an IT
person over the age of 40 to change employers so my choices would be
drastically different while your choices of bicycles aren't all that
different.

Quoted message said:

That's what I meant by rationalization.

Rationalization smashinalization.

Well there's always that.

Bill "when megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoths collide" S.

Quoted message said:

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

>>>>Obviously pride of ownership, personalization, and some memorable
>>>>rides are what makes a bicycle special. It's silly for me to
>>>>criticize
>>>>Soma, and it's just as silly to do it to Trek and LeMond, based on
>>>>personality. At one time Trek was a small company, they did a lot of
>>>>things well, and became a big company.
>>>
>>>And does anyone there even ride any more?
>>
>>
>>If I laid out just how absurd a question that is, and pointed out how
>>many people at Trek & LeMond & Klein & Fisher ride
>
>So how many?
>
>4?
>
>Greg

On a day they're having a contest, yes, 4 might be the correct number.

What's a "contest" day? That's when they're competing to see who can
ride in
on the coldest-possible day. Minimum 25 mile commute. A couple years
ago, it
was something like -22F, straight (no windchill factored in).

What's the coldest day you've commuted to work?

38 degrees in shorts and t-shirt. That's why I live in So Cal, I don't
have to commute in -22F weather.

Keep promoting your megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoth of
a vendor all you want

Very well said!

Quoted message said:

I still won't be buying TLKF.

Trek, LeMond, Klein and Fisher; once makers of interesting, worthwhile
bicycles all. And now....

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

How clever! Shall we move on to the benefits of low spoke count, paired
spoke wheels now?

And remind me again: what does Lance ride?

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I don't. I'm so far down the chain of command that I'm grateful
that I don't have to cheerlead for a product I don't believe in.
When I get closer to that point when I need to start cheerleading
maybe I'll be in a better position to change jobs.

You once begged me to watch Blossom (don't deny it!); what about THAT,

Mr.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

T?!? (Do I /need/ a smiley thing here?!?)

That can't be true. Please. Tell me it's not true! I need to maintain some
sense of GT's right to exist as a human being, but that's crossing over

the

Quoted message said:

line.

Close, but it was Saved by the Bell.

Greg

Ozark Bicycle said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

How clever! Shall we move on to the benefits of low spoke count, paired
spoke wheels now?

And remind me again: what does Lance ride?

Is that the best you can do?

Trek makes a variety of bikes for a variety of uses, but in your
simple world the fact that they are heavily marketed and some of them
are raced means they are bad. Poor logic for a simple mind.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

> I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
> flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

How clever! Shall we move on to the benefits of low spoke count, paired
spoke wheels now?

And remind me again: what does Lance ride?

Is that the best you can do?

Trek makes a variety of bikes for a variety of uses, but in your
simple world the fact that they are heavily marketed and some of them
are raced means they are bad. Poor logic for a simple mind.

Did you check the value of Montgomery Ward stock lately, puffball? It's
worth more than your "thoughts". And much more than your opinion. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You once begged me to watch Blossom (don't deny it!); what about THAT,

Mr.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

T?!? (Do I /need/ a smiley thing here?!?)

That can't be true. Please. Tell me it's not true! I need to maintain
some
sense of GT's right to exist as a human being, but that's crossing over

the

Quoted message said:

line.

Close, but it was Saved by the Bell.

Greg

I like that. Not the show, but the concept. As in, you were saved by the
bell on this one.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> But I don't. I'm so far down the chain of command that I'm grateful
> that I don't have to cheerlead for a product I don't believe in.
> When I get closer to that point when I need to start cheerleading
> maybe I'll be in a better position to change jobs.

You once begged me to watch Blossom (don't deny it!); what about THAT,

Mr.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

T?!? (Do I /need/ a smiley thing here?!?)

That can't be true. Please. Tell me it's not true! I need to maintain
some
sense of GT's right to exist as a human being, but that's crossing over

the

Quoted message said:

line.

Close, but it was Saved by the Bell.

Greg

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being
kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

How clever! Shall we move on to the benefits of low spoke count, paired
spoke wheels now?

And remind me again: what does Lance ride?

I may be the guy who's sold his soul, but I think you're taking things *way*
too seriously. It was a joke. It was only a joke. Had this been an actual
post with intelligent content, it would have been apparent. But it was only
a joke. :>😉

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being
kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

How clever! Shall we move on to the benefits of low spoke count, paired
spoke wheels now?

And remind me again: what does Lance ride?

Sorni said:

G.T. said:

Sorni said:

G.T. wrote:

> Sorni wrote:
>
>> G.T. wrote:

>>> Keep promoting your megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy
>>> behemoth of a vendor all you want, I still won't be buying TLKF.

>> Um, Greg, you still working for G.E.? :-D

> I work for a rebel unit of G.E.

Well, NBC /is/ biased, I'll give you that!

Yes, I am ashamed of working for such a right wing media corporation.
I'll give you that.

Good stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Regardless, I don't go around
> promoting my megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy behemoth of an
> employer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Um, OK.

Bill "sure sounds like rationalization (in this context)" S.

Quoted message said:

So show me where I've promoted a GE refrigerator or an NBC tv show.

Well first of all, "rationalization" doesn't necessarily mean dishonesty or
even hypocrisy. (IOW, I didn't say or imply that you DID promote
anything -- other than Leno some time or other maybe?) However, if you're
bad-mouthing Mike for promoting the bikes he sells while at the same time
sucking off the teat of your "megalithic soulless purchase-and-destroy
behemoth of an employer", then perhaps a principled argument isn't your best
tact. (Again, /in this context/.) Besides, I'll bet if you owned an NBC
affiliate you'd promote the hell out of "your" programming.

A few years ago, I was in the market for my first road bike since high
school. Had absolutely no preference as to brand, frame material, color,
whatever. I ended up buying a Klein Q-carbon Team because it fit me and my
budget the best of anything I test rode -- AND the gorgeous paint job didn't
hurt, either.

Then a month or two ago, I decided to by a Madone SL frameset because it was
drastically discounted (nearly 50%). If I had a principled objection to
"TLKF" as you call 'em, then I'd've passed no matter how good a deal -- OR
I'd have had to make a decision balancing my "ethics" versus my "bike lust"
(?). Similarly, you don't HAVE to work for G.E. -- although granted you'd
probably have to accept less money and benefits to work for some /rebel/
little outfit. So you make a choice based on what's best for you...just
like Mike does selling bikes (although in his case he has no conflict
because he truly believes in his products).

That's what I meant by rationalization.

What amazes me about this whole "soul-less mega corporation" schtick is
that the bicycle market today is far more vibrant than it was, say, 35
years ago -- back when you could get a few brands of very soulful
water-pipe-frame bikes with Simplex or Huret components that barely
worked. I'm not sold on some of the current fashions like compact
frames and low spoke-count wheels, but it is really amazing to walk in
to the soul-less Trek dealer and see multiple brands of 'cross bikes,
racing bikes, touring bikes, fixed gear commuters, the Portland,
downhill bikes, uphill bikes, uphill-and-downhill bikes, etc. etc.
Most with lifetime warranties. Beats the [censored] out of walking into the
bike shop 40 years ago and seeing ten yellow Schwinn Varsities -- or
going to the high end shop down the street and seeing a PX10 and a
Raleigh Pro, both of which I eventually own(ed) and can attest were not
particularly soulful -- unless really heavy is soulful. -- Jay Beattie.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

> I guess the public gets what they want: over-hyped, over-marketed,
> flashy, trendy BS.

I've sometimes disagreed with your writings but I think you're being
kinda
hard on yourself! :>😉

How clever! Shall we move on to the benefits of low spoke count, paired
spoke wheels now?

And remind me again: what does Lance ride?

I may be the guy who's sold his soul,

So stipulated. ;-)

Quoted message said:

but I think you're taking things *way*
too seriously.

Also so stipulated.

Quoted message said:

It was a joke. It was only a joke. Had this been an actual
post with intelligent content, it would have been apparent. But it was only
a joke. :>😉

My apologies, Mike. FWIW, I did have "post-posting regrets". Mea culpa..

Ozark Bicycle said:

Did you check the value of Montgomery Ward stock lately, puffball? It's
worth more than your "thoughts". And much more than your opinion. ;-)

You never answered the question about why you hate bike racers so
much. You're bitter about something. I can speculate about what it
is, but you could just end the discussion by admitting what your
problem is.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Did you check the value of Montgomery Ward stock lately, puffball? It's
worth more than your "thoughts". And much more than your opinion. ;-)

You never answered the question about why you hate bike racers so
much.

I don't "hate bike racers" at all. That's something you made up.

Quoted message said:

You're bitter about something.

I don't suffer [censored] gladly; hence my attitude toward you.

Quoted message said:

I can speculate

In your world, I'm quite sure speculation is second only to
masturbation.

Quoted message said:

about what it
is, but you could just end the discussion by admitting what your
problem is.

See above: I have a low tolerance for deceptive, smug, cowardly
[censored] such as you.