Basic navigational skills badly missing

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Fran said:

And of course with a GPS you can follow a track down to safety without
needing to look at where you're going or at a map. Until the 'track'
disappears over a cliff because the GPS will give you the most direct
route, not necessarily the safest...

Quoted message said:

Ha! If only that were true. Unfortunately I suspect many new users who
may not be as well informed as they think they are will tend to follow
the GPS track blindly at first - not least because they're so fascinated
by the way the track unfolds on the screen they forget to lift their
eyes every now and then to see where they're actually going.

What a ludicrous idea! Can you give one example of someone following a
GPS track on foot off the edge of a cliff? The idea is laughable!

[email hidden] said...

[GPS]

Quoted message said:

I don't see them as essential, but they cost little,

Um. Whether or not they cost much rather depends on the available cash.
Don't forget, you're a worker who earns money; you don't have children
to pay for etc. Plenty of walkers are unemployed and living on state
benefits or have families to consider. To you a GPS isn't expensive; to
me it is.
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And of course with a GPS you can follow a track down to safety without
needing to look at where you're going or at a map. Until the 'track'
disappears over a cliff because the GPS will give you the most direct
route, not necessarily the safest...

Fran, you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what GPS does for
you.

No I don't. I made the mistake of assuming that people would spot the
sarcasm.
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As a sailor I struggle to see why you need GPS on featured land at all.
Might be handy in a desert...

Whiteout (for example).

On flat ground maybe. You'd be pretty brave to trust GPS for blind nav
on a mountain in whiteout.

Well bless me. That was exactly the point I seem to have failed to
make.

--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

Quoted message said:

Mike said:

I do have a recently bought GPS, but I would never rely on that to get
me off the hill

What else is there if conditions prevent conventional nav?

Quoted message said:

... too many things to go wrong with it.

You can lose a compass - perhaps you shouldn't be using that either?

My compass broke on a navigation course recently: the instructor said
he'd seen several similar cases. (On a Silva Type 4, the glowing part
that is meant to sit at the top of the dial, enabling the user to read
off the bearing accurately, started moving round when I turned the
dial. Nothing's infallible.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"Andy Howell" <andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote

Quoted message said:

I must admit the thing that surprised me most about this story was that
nobody in this group was carrying a gps.

I very rarely use my gps and I don't always carry it. But I sure as hell
would have been carrying it in the Cairngorms, especially when the weather
forecast had been pretty consistent for so long.

There is something that doesn't compute in that argument - we should have a
gps because we are going somewhere dangerous? Sure, I understand the
technology-is-here-so-we-might-as-well-use-it arguement, but you would
surely extricate yourself from a tough position whether you had a gps or not
wouldn't you? The gps has to be to make things easier, not to be your
lifeline.

I have to conclude that if the group needed a gps then it shouldn't have
been there in the first place.

Graham

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 22:00:10 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Fran <[email hidden]> wrote :

<->

Quoted message said:

Isn't 20:20 hindsight wonderful.

Preformatted reply to posting of news article relating to persons
lost/rescued.

Why didn't they have/know how to use compass/map/mobile phone/GPS/group
shelter/tent/kitchen sink?
<strike through as applicable>

Why did they have to have compass/map/mobile phone/GPS/group
shelter/tent/kitchen sink?
<strike through as applicable>

Idiot!/I agree/WGAF/Charge the b'stards!/Should have left 'em where they
were!/What has this to do with cameras?
<strike through as applicable>

--
Never test the water with both feet.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:51:37 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Do you not agree that in that situation, since it was actually
happening - the mistake having already been made - it would have been
helpful for them to have been able to send the MR a grid reference?

Of course it would. The question is whether it is foolhardy to leave
home without one. And a mobile phone. And spare batteries for both
GPS and phone. How about a spare phone on a different network to
maximise the chances of getting a signal? Then while they're waiting
they'll need the best chance possibly of survival. So a shovel or two
to dig a snow hole. A sleeping bag and thermarest each, obviously.
And so on.

A GPS is a useful bit of kit, but *not* an absolute essential. IMHO
of course, but I'm right :-)

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

Quoted message said:

What else is there if conditions prevent conventional nav?

I've had a think about it, and can't think of any such conditions.
Can you help me out?

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:47:20 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From time to time I browse over to MRT websites and read through
accident reports. I've no done it for a while, but I've not got the
impression that most call outs occur as the result of idiocy on the
hill. The impression I have is that most of them (and I'm thinking of
the Lakes, here - not other places) seem to occur when people fall and
break a limb, or suffer a heart attack or something similar. I'll go
and have another look later this evening if I remember.

The Ogwen makes for some interesting reading too
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2005.php

My favourite recent one:
"Eventually, the girl was levered off the rock (like levering off a
limpet) and assisted down Western gully"

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

On 28 Nov 2005 08:39:22 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

... >Mike wrote:
... >
... >> I do have a recently bought GPS, but I would never rely on that to get
... >> me off the hill
... >
... >What else is there if conditions prevent conventional nav?
... >
... >> ... too many things to go wrong with it.
... >
... >You can lose a compass - perhaps you shouldn't be using that either?

Well for a start I have a small silva compass as a spare at the bottom
of my bag.
I would feel extremly vunerable and unlucky if I had lost my watch,
trodden on both compasses, watched the photocopied map blow away into
the whiteness and then realise I had forgotten to pack the folded map
into my bag (which would not be much use without the compass anyway)
my T mobile friend would undoubtly be giving me a blank stare.... thus
finding I was solely relying on a GPS which I normaly use as a bit of
fun and interest ... Geocaching anyone?

The GPS is affected by weather .... rain and snow landing on the spot
where the reciever is etc.
I have been on Ben Macdui in a whiteout, complete with ferocious gale
.... and it was a handful ,,, an exciting memory I will never forget.
We hightailed off there pretty quick and kicked through a wee cornice
and down into a dark Lairig Gru. We brewed up in a hut .. the name of
which escapes me.
So a GPS would would have been no use to us, as a back-track was out
of the question due to the direction of the gale.

Mike

Quoted message said:

What a ludicrous idea! Can you give one example of someone following a
GPS track on foot off the edge of a cliff? The idea is laughable!

Looking back up this branch of the thread, it seems to have originated
from a discussion of what to do in a whiteout. In a whiteout, you
can't see anything. So no, not that strange an idea.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Naturally I understand the perfectly valid point you're making about
me having only myself to look out for, while others have families and
may not be in employment, but there are lots of walks to go out on: we
don't always have to choose the one where there's a real potential for
getting lost leading to significant harm.

I wasn't getting at you personally, BTW, and FWIW I agree with you - but
had I not been reading this group for a while I wouldn't have really
heard of GPS other than 'satnav' systems for the car, and that's
something that's well out of my league. I do have an eTrex, but I must
admit I very rarely remember to carry it with me; that said, most of my
walks are fairly near to 'civilisation' these days. The only time I
came anywhere near to needing help getting down from a hill was one
occasion when I was surprised by how quickly night gets dark without
street lights in the way (yes, it was *years* ago) and TBH a GPS
wouldn't have helped me then. Neither would a mobile phone. They (in
their present form) didn't exist.
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Isn't 20:20 hindsight wonderful.

Preformatted reply to posting of news article relating to persons
lost/rescued.

Cause of much chuckling here snipped

<G>
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

What a ludicrous idea! Can you give one example of someone following a
GPS track on foot off the edge of a cliff? The idea is laughable!

Looking back up this branch of the thread, it seems to have originated
from a discussion of what to do in a whiteout. In a whiteout, you
can't see anything. So no, not that strange an idea.

LOL! Simon, I'm not gonna tell you and Fran how to get about. ...but if
you honestly feel you're in danger of walking off cliffs walking
towards a waypoint [1] might I suggest an alternative hobby! Not just
for you sakes but for the poor [censored] you land on!

[1] Or following a compass bearing for that matter.

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

What else is there if conditions prevent conventional nav?

I've had a think about it, and can't think of any such conditions.
Can you help me out?

Broad daylight. Middle of a desert. No landmarks of any kind. Clouldy
sky.

I'm sure you can think of plenty of others now I've given you a start.

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Naturally I understand the perfectly valid point you're making about
me having only myself to look out for, while others have families and
may not be in employment, but there are lots of walks to go out on: we
don't always have to choose the one where there's a real potential for
getting lost leading to significant harm.

I wasn't getting at you personally, BTW,

No problem - I know 🙂 As I said, it occurred to me on the way home
that I'd been basing my remarks on the wrong price.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:23:12 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote :

<->

Quoted message said:

The Ogwen makes for some interesting reading too
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2005.php

My favourite recent one:
"Eventually, the girl was levered off the rock (like levering off a
limpet) and assisted down Western gully"

Cruel, but amusing.

--
....and the homing facility on their umbrella had failed.
[Langdale and Ambleside MRT callout report]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:32:36 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Fran <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Isn't 20:20 hindsight wonderful.

Preformatted reply to posting of news article relating to persons
lost/rescued.

Cause of much chuckling here snipped

<G>

Glad to see it was taken in the spirit in which it was offered.

--
if philosophy wasn't an indoor job with no heavy lifting,
it would be far less popular
[Jim Webster, uk.business.agriculture 28-08-03]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:19:27 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What else is there if conditions prevent conventional nav?

I've had a think about it, and can't think of any such conditions.
Can you help me out?

A troll pokes you in both eyes with a pointy stick, uses the oil in the
compass housing to lubricate the squeaky gate and makes sure your map
gets severely singed in a flame war.

In other words - only on Usenet ;-)

--
What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Mechanical Engineers build weapons.
Civil Engineers build targets.