Basic navigational skills badly missing

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

No-one has suggested that people should take a GPS instead of a map
or compass.

Quoted message said:

Directly said, no. Implied, even if by accident, I think they have.

Or inferred even...

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The simple fact remains, though, that once they were
stuck/lost/whatever and chose to ring the MR it would have saved the
MR a great deal of time, and involved less risk to the rescuers, if
they'd had a GR to go to rather than having to search a large area.

Yet the MRTs are not making a point of saying this, despite it being
/their/ time and effort which might be spared.

Exactly. The proud arrogant MRTs who just won't accept the advantages of
modern technological developments. One could even call them Luddites...

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I don't understand why some people are unwilling to admit the obvious
in relation to GPSs.

If the absolute bottom line were always maximising personal safety
then... well actually, if that is really the absolute bottom line you
wouldn't be out there to start with.

But if you are, a GPS might help...

Paul

Dominic Sexton said:

I agree with your point PW but the impression I got from some of the
previous posts was that some people were saying that others should
carry a GPS.

In some situations, it would probably be a good idea, but I'm not suggesting
that everyone should always carry one. It's all a question of personal
choice, based on the situation that they plan to go into. In certain
situations, it would be a good idea, but that's ultimately the
responsibility of the individual to decide, I wouldn't want to make that
choice for them, it's up to them to decide.

Of course, it's easy to make a judgement in hindsight, but then the people
involved in this incident would probably come to the same conclusion. It's
no good saying "you should have carried a GPS", they'd probably agree with
you now! In hindsight. At the time though, for whatever reason, they chose
not to. They didn't feel they needed one. And that may have been the right
decision, given the circumstances under which they made the decision.
No-one knows the future with any certainty.

At the end of the day, we all make decisions based on the information we
have available at the time. Sometimes it's wrong, but most of the time it
doesn't lead us into danger, or into a news report! I've certainly made
mistakes, but fortunately nothing newsworthy!

Quoted message said:

Here are my thoughts on that (not directed at you PW ;-)

I choose to carry a GPS much of the time (mostly for entertainment /
recording my trips rather than safety) but I think it wrong that
people dictate to others what equipment they should carry / wear /
use.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes I do go out in the hills with lots of kit and at other
times I may take little more than I'm wearing. It is a choice I make
and I don't want any busybody interfering in that. We all have
opinions as to what clothing and equipment is or isn't appropriate
for different activities in different conditions and locations.
Sometimes we can base our opinions on experience and sometimes we
will extrapolate beyond our experience.

Quite. I could quite easily do a walk in the Beacons with minimal equipment
(and have done) based on my knowledge and experience of the area, and most
of the time nothing bad is likely to come of this, but if anything did, I
could easily be criticised for not carrying certain cruicial equipment, like
a compass, even though I know the are like the back of my hand.

Quoted message said:

Ask a group of fell runners what equipment is essential to carry on
the hill, then ask the same of a group of experienced hill walkers
and then ask the same of people wandering the streets of Ambleside on
a sunny afternoon with lots of expensive gear. There will be lots of
different answers but none of them will necessarily be right. The
wise will probably say the answer depends upon the conditions /
location / activity and experience of the user.

Indeed.

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As others have pointed out knowledge / experience is far more
important than kit. In many circumstances a positive attitude is even
more important than knowledge.

Quite.

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Should we therefore have a right to roam testing / licensing scheme to
ensure that people have the requisite level of attitude, knowledge and
experience prior to being allowed off the road?

No. Even if they did I'd avoid/ignore it.

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Not only do I think that such a scheme would be wrong but I also think
it would be totally impractical and un-enforceable. Many a time when I
have been heading up onto the moors nobody has been in the area to see
me let alone verify my credentials!

As has often happened with rally fans heading off to camp in the South Wales
hills, even though the South Wales Police try to seal off the entire area
during the event!

Paul

"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And of course with a GPS you can follow a track down to safety without
needing to look at where you're going or at a map. Until the 'track'
disappears over a cliff because the GPS will give you the most direct
route, not necessarily the safest...

There was a story in the news here recently about an Aussie couple who flew
into Christchurch airport, and rented a car with GPS. They wanted to go to
Nelson. To understand the story fully, you might want to look at a map of NZ
at this point - because the GPS did (almost) what you suggest - it plotted
the direct route by road. Now, some of our mountain "roads" are not quite
what you might expect. Particularly in the Nelson Lakes area. By the time
the couple realised that something had gone wrong, the roads were too narrow
for them to safely turn around. An epic journey!

I don't lend this as an argument against GPS, of course (and anyway, the
hire company argued that someone had palyed with the GPS program).

More seriously (and I throw this in knowing that it is not completely
applicable in the UK), GPS is not completely realiable in wet bush-cover, or
in deep, narrow valleys/gulleys. Like in a lot of NZ tramping country.
However, even here they are now *very* widely used, for their use in other
terrain. Along with Mountain Radio, Electronic Locater Beacons, Avalanche
Transceivers,...... depending on the circumstances. I don't know anyone who
carries these, but doesn't carry a compass, and a map (though sometimes it's
a very little computer-printed map, without some big notable mountains in
the surrounding area).

M.

--
From Sunny South Canterbury

Once upon a time I tried not to spoil my reply address.
Then the Swen-virus started to send me emails :-(
Remove mashed to reply. Sorry.

Peewiglet said:

at the end of
the day no-one compels people to join MR teams. I'm sure that most
people doing it get a lot of satisfaction out of it,

I'm sure that a lot of them get a lot of kicks and thrills out of it.

Fact is, I've often got a kick out of climbing a mountain in gale force
winds and camping in storms and so on. Problem is, if you do it on your own
you may be labelled an idiot. But if you do it as part of an MRT, it's seen
as a valiant personal risk to your own safety in the cause of saving others,
but is it really that?

Yes of course it is, but don't try to kid me that they don't get a kick out
of it too! Some people in this world are adrenalin junkies, and these are
the kinds of people that probably join MRTs.

I once met a guy who was in the Paras who was involved in the attack on
Goose Green (which he reckoned was the scariest experience of his life) and
who was an obvious adrenalin junkie. He told me that he was bored stupid
just sitting at home, and didn't feel really alive unless he was jumping out
of aeroplanes and stuff.

These kinds of people suit the volunteer services well, and they don't just
do it for the sake of helping their fellow man, they get a rush out of it
too. Good for us ordinary mortals that they do. What would we do without
them?

Paul

Peewiglet said:

I wonder if this sort of debate went on when maps and compasses were
first introduced? Devil's spawn, etc.... 🙂

Of course it did! Who needs maps and compasses when you can find your way
around perfectly well using cairns and stars?

Quoted message said:

I'm not in favour of
identity cards, or random imprisonment either. Or cold baked beans

IIRC I once read an account of a climber stuck on a cliff face overnight and
he reckoned that his meal of cold baked beans and flat fizzy pop was the
best meal he'd had in his life!

Quoted message said:

or sweetcorn.

What's wrong with cold sweetcorn?

Paul

Fran said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but with GPS he's a fool who knows where he is.

And of course with a GPS you can follow a track down to safety without
needing to look at where you're going or at a map. Until the 'track'
disappears over a cliff because the GPS will give you the most direct
route, not necessarily the safest...

So you walk around the cliff, whereupon the GPS then gives you the direct
route to wherever, unlike a compass, which will then be pointing in
completely the wrong direction. The beauty of a GPS is that it acts like a
homing device, not a compass, so you don't have to follow the arrow in a
straight line, you just zig and zag and keep the arrow pointing roughly
forward if possible. Eventually you'll get there, by whatever route you
choose (unless the arrow is pointing behind you).

Paul

Fran said:

Unfortunately I suspect many new users
who may not be as well informed as they think they are will tend to
follow the GPS track blindly at first - not least because they're so
fascinated by the way the track unfolds on the screen they forget to
lift their eyes every now and then to see where they're actually
going.

I've done that. Stepped in a few puddles. It's a novelty at first. It
wears off...

Paul

Quoted message said:

What a ludicrous idea! Can you give one example of someone following a
GPS track on foot off the edge of a cliff? The idea is laughable!

As I said, I stepped in a few puddles, but never walked over any cliffs!
And trust me, my GPS did instruct me to do so, on at least one occasion,
maybe two. Fortunately the human brain has certain built-in safeguards.
Certain death or technological mistrust? Easy choice really.

Paul

Fran said:

most of my walks are fairly near to 'civilisation' these days.

The interesting thing here is that what Fran calls "near civilisation" is
actually the dense confusing vast forestry of the South Wales valleys/hills,
in which probably resides a variety of strange human variants, not to
mention pumas, general wild beasties and various other species heretofore
unknown to mankind.

Not to mention very difficult navigational challenges, even with a GPS...

Paul

Fran said:

Quoted message said:

Fran, you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what GPS does
for you.

No I don't. I made the mistake of assuming that people would spot the
sarcasm.

LOL!

Paul

Quoted message said:

Hey, my case is that GPS is harmless. Not that it's especially useful.
As a sailor I'm amazed people on land full of features would even
bother with it half the time.

I don't bother with it half the time. In fact I don't bother with it 95% of
the time. Mostly it's just useful for recording tracks and storing
waypoints. Occasionally it's useful for checking my position but mostly I
only ever use it for real nav in zero visiblity (hill fog and night nav).
Then it becomes *really* useful.

Even for something as simple as a short stroll away from the tent in the
middle of the night.

Paul

Mike said:

I would feel extremly vunerable and unlucky if I had lost my watch,
trodden on both compasses, watched the photocopied map blow away into
the whiteness and then realise I had forgotten to pack the folded map
into my bag

Yeah, I've often done that... ;-)

Quoted message said:

The GPS is affected by weather

No it isn't.

Quoted message said:

So a GPS would would have been no use to us, as a back-track was out
of the question due to the direction of the gale.

Why not? Can't you walk into wind?

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

What else is there if conditions prevent conventional nav?

I've had a think about it, and can't think of any such conditions.
Can you help me out?

Magnetic rocks?

Paul

Quoted message said:

GPS gives you your position. Nothing else.

It does a lot else. Especially if you know how to use it.

Quoted message said:

It does the position - you
have to choose the route.

Exactly, and that's partly where the skill of using a GPS lies. It ain't no
magic box, you need to know how to use it.

Quoted message said:

If you choose to do that with a poorly
chosen waypoint that is your mistake and nothing to do with GPS.

True, but it's the GPS that manages the waypoint for you, tells you where it
is and which way to go. A compass does neither of those things. You could
choose the same waypoint when navigating by compass, but the compass will
tell you nothing about it. The GPS will. Whether it's right or wrong is
another matter entirely.

Quoted message said:

As a sailor I struggle to see why you need GPS on featured land at
all. Might be handy in a desert...

Quite honestly, I find very little use for a GPS for navigation, except in
bad visibility. Same with a compass. Even before GPS I rarely ever needed
to get my compass out, the map alone usually sufficed, except in bad
visibility.

Paul

Quoted message said:

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Whiteout (for example).

On flat ground maybe. You'd be pretty brave to trust GPS for blind nav
on a mountain in whiteout.

Why? I've trusted my GPS many times at night and in thick fog, both
technically "blind nav". Never let me down. No need for bravery.
Completely trustworthy (provided you know you can trust it - i.e. good
satellite reception).

With experience comes trust. You learn when you can trust it and when you
can't. Most of the time you can.

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

On the other hand, the combination of GPS plus mobile phone has done
more than anything else in recent years to reduce the self-reliance of
those on the hill.

Not to mention maps and paved paths.

Quoted message said:

Why bother learning to navigate if you can just
follow the arrow on the GPS? And if that fails, just phone MRT.

Or follow the path.

Or the path on the map.

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

You'd not want to go walking with us then, of the 2 dozen or so who go
walking regularly, I only know of 2 who have GPSs.

That should be fine. 1 GPS plus a backup.

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

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So what did you do before GPSs were invented?

Stayed off hills in potential whiteout conditions.

ie any day during the winter

Not in South Wales! ;-)

Paul

Peter Clinch said:

Do you
think that navigation at night must be impossible without GPS because
you can't see anything much?

I seem to recall doing quite a few night walks long before GPS came along.

Quoted message said:

I was doing a winter experience day for the Uni club a few years ago
in the Northern Corries. We ended up in whiteout, someone asked me
why we weren't turning back as we couldn't see anything so surely it
was madness? I told him how what we'd come to in about x minutes and
y meters and in about x minutes and y meters we came to it just like I
said. How could I do that with just a map, compass and brain? It's
not /that/ hard with practise.

I've done night walks with map alone, preferring to navigate by "slope
aspect" rather than get out the compass. Preferred to leave that as a last
resort. Always been a big fan of contour lines.

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

How many of us go out into the hills expecting to get into a position
we can't escape from?

Me? Never!

Quoted message said:

And how many take sufficient spare kit with
them to be able to survive in comfort for not one but two or more
unplanned nights?

Nope, not me. I'd die on the first night! :-(

Paul