Basic navigational skills badly missing

In message <[email hidden]>

Simon Caldwell said:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:47:20 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From time to time I browse over to MRT websites and read through
accident reports. I've no done it for a while, but I've not got the
impression that most call outs occur as the result of idiocy on the
hill. The impression I have is that most of them (and I'm thinking of
the Lakes, here - not other places) seem to occur when people fall and
break a limb, or suffer a heart attack or something similar. I'll go
and have another look later this evening if I remember.

The Ogwen makes for some interesting reading too
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2005.php

My favourite recent one:
"Eventually, the girl was levered off the rock (like levering off a
limpet) and assisted down Western gully"

It would be interesting to see more follow-ups to them. Hopefully good
news - for example, a friend of my brother's fell the best part of
300' in the Lakes when an abseil went wrong (although he's a pretty
experienced climber), and was back out climbing again in a few months.

--
Simon Challands

Mike said:

So a GPS would would have been no use to us,

Hey, my case is that GPS is harmless. Not that it's especially useful.
As a sailor I'm amazed people on land full of features would even
bother with it half the time.

Simon Caldwell said:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:47:20 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

From time to time I browse over to MRT websites and read through
accident reports. I've no done it for a while, but I've not got the
impression that most call outs occur as the result of idiocy on the
hill. The impression I have is that most of them (and I'm thinking of
the Lakes, here - not other places) seem to occur when people fall and
break a limb, or suffer a heart attack or something similar. I'll go
and have another look later this evening if I remember.

The Ogwen makes for some interesting reading too
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/2005.php

My favourite recent one:
"Eventually, the girl was levered off the rock (like levering off a
limpet) and assisted down Western gully"

Excellent, thanks 🙂 I'll go and have a look.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

Do you not agree that in that situation, since it was actually
happening - the mistake having already been made - it would have been
helpful for them to have been able to send the MR a grid reference?

Of course it would. The question is whether it is foolhardy to leave
home without one. And a mobile phone. And spare batteries for both
GPS and phone.

I'm not sure when that/they became the question/s 🙂

(Yes, I know I mentioned earlier this afternoon that in some
situations I think it's a bit daft to go without a GPS, but that was
quite a long way into the discussion.)

Quoted message said:

How about a spare phone on a different network to
maximise the chances of getting a signal? Then while they're waiting
they'll need the best chance possibly of survival. So a shovel or two
to dig a snow hole. A sleeping bag and thermarest each, obviously.
And so on.

A GPS is a useful bit of kit, but *not* an absolute essential. IMHO
of course, but I'm right :-)

:-)

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

Graham Seed said:

"Andy Howell" <andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote

Quoted message said:

I must admit the thing that surprised me most about this story was that
nobody in this group was carrying a gps.

I very rarely use my gps and I don't always carry it. But I sure as hell
would have been carrying it in the Cairngorms, especially when the weather
forecast had been pretty consistent for so long.

There is something that doesn't compute in that argument - we should have a
gps because we are going somewhere dangerous? Sure, I understand the
technology-is-here-so-we-might-as-well-use-it arguement, but you would
surely extricate yourself from a tough position whether you had a gps or not
wouldn't you? The gps has to be to make things easier, not to be your
lifeline.

I have to conclude that if the group needed a gps then it shouldn't have
been there in the first place.

?? Does that apply to map and compass, warm clothing, waterproof
clothes etc?

It's difficult to describe anything as absolutely 'essential', but
there are a host of things that make life so much more safe and
comfortable that most well informed people wouldn't go without them.
That doesn't make them 'lifelines', as far as I can see.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:32:54 +0000, Bootlaces <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Preformatted reply to posting of news article relating to persons
lost/rescued.

Why didn't they have/know how to use compass/map/mobile phone/GPS/group
shelter/tent/kitchen sink?
<strike through as applicable>

Why did they have to have compass/map/mobile phone/GPS/group
shelter/tent/kitchen sink?
<strike through as applicable>

Idiot!/I agree/WGAF/Charge the b'stards!/Should have left 'em where they
were!/What has this to do with cameras?
<strike through as applicable>

Lol :-)

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

Quoted message said:

Hey, my case is that GPS is harmless. Not that it's especially useful.
As a sailor I'm amazed people on land full of features would even
bother with it half the time.

It's when you can't see those features that GPS comes into its own.

IMO GPS is neither 'harmless' or 'harmful'. It's a tool like any other
which, if used poorly, can cause more problems than it solves.
Conversely, if used correctly GPS can be an invaluable aid. That's
*all* it is though, an aid.

Al
--
[This space left intentionally blank]

Mike said:

I do have a recently bought GPS, but I would never rely on that to get
me off the hill ... too many things to go wrong with it.

Like what exactly? Running out of batteries? How often does your car run
out of petrol? It's happened to me. Did I ever blame the car? No, it was
my own stupidity.

Dropping it and breaking it? Quite possible. You could quite easily break
a compass too. Just be careful.

Not setting the correct datum? Well you set it once, then it remains
correct. Simple.

You have to learn how to use a compass, so why not a GPS? You don't expect
a compass to be able to navigate on its own, so why assume that a GPS is a
magic box? Good use of a GPS requires the learning of certain skills,
although even for a moron, it will at the very least give a grid ref.

Never rely on it? I've been relying on mine for the last 6 years. Never
let me down. Most problems are down to the user, not the GPS.

Paul

muzz said:

I have assured myself with an 'Aspect of Slope' in these conditions.
We had walked too far in a whiteout and missed out 'junction' onto
the next hill due to some nasty cornice. Still had an idea where we
had ended up and an 'Aspect of Slope' confirmed it.

Before the days of GPS I used to navigate by map alone. Very rarely ever
needed to get the compass out. Sometimes I'd do a night walk or other zero
visiblity challenge just for the hell of it, and still rarely ever needed to
get the compass out. So long as you know roughly where you are, the slope
aspect may be all you need. It's served me well in the past.

Navigation isn't just map and compass.

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

So what do you do when you're in a whiteout and your GPS dies?

C'mon, be honest, how often has your GPS died in a whiteout? Okay, let's be
realistic, it could happen. As a dedicated 6 year user of GPS, how many
times has my GPS ever died? Okay, I'll be honest, it's died twice! Once
every three years! That's not a bad average!

Let's consider these in more detail...

1. Unexpected walk up Pen y Fan. I went out one day for a photo drive,
just to drive around the Beacons and take photos. No walk intended, no walk
planned, no walking gear. No batteries charged in advance. But when I got
to Storey Arms the weather was so clear that I just couldn't resist it. I
got out of the car and climbed Pen y Fan. No rucksack, no gear, no walking
boots, nothing (except for the camera of course). It was just a spur of the
moment thing and the weather was so stable I knew it wouldn't change (it was
only a short stroll anyway). My GPS batteries were flat before I even
started the walk, so I couldn't blame the GPS. Didn't need it anyway, even
if the weather had changed.

2. Moel y Dyniewyd, Snowdonia. I spent a few days in Snowdonia, knowing
full well in advance that I didn't have enough battery power to last the
whole trip. On the last day, there was little power left, so the final walk
was done without GPS, just occasionally turning it on to mark a waypoint.
This was not a fault of the GPS, it didn't let me down, and the walk didn't
rely on the GPS for navigation.

Quoted message said:

It
sounds from what you've been saying like you won't know from the map
exactly where you are. And that is the source of your problems.

Whether you use a compass or a GPS, you should always know roughly
where you are on the map. And if bad weather is approaching, then you
should make sure you know *exactly* where you are.

I agree, you should always know where you are, and the GPS is bloody good at
telling you exactly that! And if bad weather is approaching, what you
should be checking is not just where you are, but that you have enough
battery power for the GPS. So long as you have, there should be no problem.

Quoted message said:

Why would traditional navigation start from the assumption that you've
already failed and are lost? The point of navigation, traditional or
high tech, is not to get lost in the first place.

True, but having a GPS changes the position of the goal posts. With a GPS
you no longer need to know where you are, only where you need to go, and the
GPS will guide you there, even if you don't have a clue where you are to
begin with.

So is it really that bad not knowing exactly where you are, provided you
have a reliable means of getting to where you want to go? Even if you find
your way blocked by an impassable cliff or river, just take a detour and the
GPS will still point you the right way once you get past the obstacle.

Paul

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

This may be a valid point if they were skilled navigators, but they
weren't.

See Simon's post re: meedja hyperbole.

Fair point.

Paul

Graham Seed said:

......In those conditions I see no good reason not to carry
a map, compass, GPS and mobile phone.

Quoted message said:

Why not. If you can sfford the gps unit it might as well be in the
rucksack along with the mobile that everyone seems to have these
days. I still feel having a gps takes the edge off your navigating
ability

Why? If you feel a need to practice the traditional art of navigation, a
GPS doesn't stop you from doing that. I haven't used a compass for years
but could do so tomorrow if I needed to. It's like riding a bike, you never
forget. Using a GPS doesn't turn your brains to jelly. If all the GPS
satellites stopped working tomorrow I'd just go back to doing things the old
way. I haven't forgotten, and using a GPS for the last 6 years hasn't
corrupted my traditional skills, even if they may be a tad rusty.

Quoted message said:

and like Roger I feel you could dump me on top of any
mountain in a whiteout and i would get back down somehow...

So would I, as I always did back in the (good?) old days.

Quoted message said:

perhaps
later than would have been the case if i'd have a gps,

Not necessarily! I remember one memorable trip where the GPS went haywire
in the lanes at the end (due to bad reception - back in the SA days) and we
took a wrong turn and ended up walking miles in the wrong direction before
realising it. Perhaps with a compass I'd have paid more attention to the
map and noticed the error sooner.

Quoted message said:

but I'd still get back.

Same here. I've always got back.

Quoted message said:

However, that's no reason not to include it as an aid to
navigation.

No indeed. Whatever your skills (or lack of), a GPS is an extra
navigational aid, which will give you extra information should you require
it.

Quoted message said:

Those of us who have learnt to navigate with only map and compass
should feel blessed!

Really? I feel so happy that you said that, even though I never do it that
way anymore.

Quoted message said:

There is definately a feeling of being in touch
with your surroundings that is almost spiritual.

With respect Graham, I have to say that is complete and utter bollocks IMO!
I feel totally spiritually in touch with my surroundings irrespective of
whatever means I've used to navigate there. I don't feel that my navigation
methods affect my emotional relationship with my surroundings in any way
whatsoever. You may call it spiritual, I call it emotional, but whatever...
If you really feel that the navigitional techniques that you use get you
closer to the environment, then you must really love navigation! In which
case, I think you're probably getting your kicks from the navigation itself,
rather than the environment. I don't see how being in touch with your
surroundings depends in any way upon the navigational techniques that you
used to get there. But on the other hand, I do appreciate the satisfaction
that one can gain from successful navigation in difficult conditions.

Quoted message said:

On my last trip to
the Arctic I was with a bunch of kids travelling over an ice cap in a
whiteout, casually glancing at the map until i reached a point where
I knew I'd totally lost my position. I got the gps out, replotted my
position and set off on the new bearing arriving at my intended
detination without anyone knowing what had gone on. The fact is, I
took my eye off the ball knowing I had the gps as backup. Not sure
that was a good thing.

From your "spiritual" perspective, perhaps not, but from a purely
navigational perspective, you simply used the GPS to navigate instead of the
compass. So there was actually nothing wrong with your navigational
technique, you were simply using a different technique. GPS navigation does
not rely on knowing where you are (even though it will tell you that),
simply on where you want to go. It's a perfectly valid navigation
technique, even though it may be radically different to how you've done
things in the past.

Paul

This seems as good a place as any to say this. In the past year I've spent
some time using a flight simulator. Some may call it a game, but it isn't,
it's a flight sim. Anyway, my point is that in the process I've learned a
lot about real flying, in one way or another.

Relevant to this thread is the fact that every modern aircraft comes
equipped with a GPS, in fact some are even built exclusively around them.
The Cirrus SR20 for example is a pure GPS aircraft, there are no traditional
navaids included. God help a Cirrus SR20 pilot if the batteries ever ran
out!

The fact of life is that GPS is by far the easiest and most efficient means
of modern navigation today. Traditional methods pale in comparison (I'm
talking about aircraft navigation here, not walking). Now in the sim I
often like to navigate using traditional methods, they are fun, and
challenging. I often fly at night or in bad visibility, just to practice my
navigational skills.

Now it's happened on more than one occasion that I've approached an airport
in zero visibility using traditional nav techniques (comparable to compass
navigation), and that has sometimes failed. Sometimes I've failed to line
myself up correctly with the runway, or even to find the airport, resulting
in a power boost and a "go around" to try again. Sometimes I've simply
given up out of frustration (particularly after a long flight) and turned
the damn GPS on! Suddenly it all becomes easy.

Okay, so I use the GPS, line myself up with the runway, land the plane, blah
de blah, but the point it, everyone lives, instead of everyone dying in a
ball of flame because my traditional nav failed me.

Who cares whether GPS is easy or not? The important thing is whether anyone
dies or not.

Of course, I may still screw up the landing, but at least I'll crash on the
runway. With traditional nav, I may not even find the airport, instead
flying into a hillside three miles away...

GPS navigation is standard in modern aircraft. When are walkers going to
wake up to this fact? If a 737 pilot crashed in bad visibility and survived
to tell the tale, then told his rescuers that he was relying on his compass
instead of his GPS, he'd probably be hung, drawn and quartered! Or maybe
just locked up for 20 years.

Paul

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

By learning and practicing them? Just because you take a GPS, that
doesn't prevent you learning how to use a compass too. It's simply
a matter of choosing to do it.

Yes, but if you have 2 methods available, one of which is easy and the
other less so, then it's natural to choose the easier.

Of course. Many people who don't like to put any effort into anything often
choose the easier option.

Quoted message said:

Just like
those people who go walking with others who can navigate, and are
happy following them round all the time without navigating for
themselves.

And what would happen to those people if the navigator had an accident and
was rendered unconcious? This is something that I often tried to impress
upon my brothers, but it always fell on deaf ears. Those who don't want to
learn, won't learn.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just hate the continuation of the myth that a compass is essential
but a GPS merely optional.

Well it is optional, as I don't have one yet!

Everything's optional. No-one is obliged to continue living if they don't
want to.

In your own case, if you can navigate perfectly well without a GPS, then I
see no problem with that. The problem is with those that can't.

Quoted message said:

But I agree, it would be an excellent way of learning compass work.
And indeed, map-work generally, which is IMHO harder to do well than
using either a compass or a GPS. The important thing is not knowing
which way you are going, but which way you should be going - there's
not much use walking off in exactly the direction you intend, if
you've chosen a route that involves a few hundred feet of unnecessary
descent and reascent, or which takes you over a cliff!

Which reminds me of a walk with my brothers when they were armed with a GPS
and a waypoint, and were determined to walk in a straight line toward that
waypoint. I was using a compass and a map at the time (just before I bought
a GPS) and I chose a slightly longer route that avoided the large bog and
the deep valley. Guess who got there first?

But even a GPS user could have done the same. It wasn't the compass or the
GPS that avoided the bog and deep valley, that's down to the user.

Quoted message said:

It's only when visibility is poor due to snow, fog, or night, that a
compass or GPS becomes essential.

Exactly. *OR* Whichever one you are skilled at using, or both.

Paul

Ken said:

On a slightly less silly point, as an occasional group leader (for
school parties) I'm starting to wonder if carrying a GPS ought not to
be considered basic equipment along with the survival bag, rope etc we
lug. For the simple reason that, if we did get lost or got our
location wrong when summoning MR a perfeclty reasonable question
would be "why didn't you have a GPS in your bag to check your
navigation against?". And you know, a perfectly decent answer would
*not* be "I was too damn proud".

So we're going to get a gps unit

Good for you.

Quoted message said:

and, certainly in winter it'll go in
the bag and it'll be used as others have suggested - when it seems
vital we're right, when traditional methods are too unreliable and to
have fun with at the end of the day comparing actual route to
intended.

But for minute-to-minute navigation it'll still be map and compass.

However you choose to navigate, be sure to take the time and trouble to
learn how to navigate with a GPS. It's not a magic box, it's a tool like
any other, and it takes a certain skill to use it effectively (not to
mention getting it set up correctly). Don't just carry it with you and
assume that it will work its magic the moment you get into trouble. Learn
how to use it properly. Setting the correct datum is vital. Some people
use a GPS just to read the grid ref. That is such a waste of what a GPS is
capable of, and a very inefficient use to boot.

Paul

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but with GPS he's a fool who knows where he is.

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

So should MRTs be pleased if they get twice as many callouts but have
to spend half as much time looking?

If a fool knows where he is, he probably won't need to call the MRT to tell
them that he's lost.

Paul

Peter Clinch said:

There are all sorts of things that can save your life that cost
considerably less than £90. So it really doesn't pay to start
criticising like this for equipment choices or you start off down a
*very* rocky road.

We're not talking about "all sorts of things", we're talking about
navigational devices. There isn't a lot of choice - map, compass, GPS.
That's it. All those other equipment choices are only necessary if you
become hopelessly lost. If you don't, then you don't need them. The three
key navigational devices are the things that help ensure that you don't need
them.

Quoted message said:

Listening to Tayside MRT folk talking about this incident at the DMFF
on Friday nobody seemed to be mentioning GPSs, but a general level of
Cluefulness seemed to be me more on folks' minds.

And that's a big part of the problem as I see it. The general concensus
amongst MRTs that a GPS is not essential is a major problem in its own
right. Clearly walkers getting lost is a big issue, but walkers carrying
the most amazing navigation device the world has ever seen? Apparently
that's not important! They'd rather criticise people for not having real
navigational skills with antique equpment, rather than for not spending a
few quid on something that would give their precise position, irrespective
of whether they had any navigational skills or not.

This is clearly a case of luddite pride vs. high-tech efficiency. All
modern commercial aircraft navigate by GPS. Ships navigate by GPS. The A-Z
update their maps using GPS. The OS map by GPS. Everyone who's anyone uses
GPS these days. But walkers? Oh no, map and compass is better... gimme a
break!

You're starting to sound like those new age weirdos who like to live on
farms with no electricity, chop down trees to fuel their fires, plant their
own vegetables, rear their own animals and so on. All of that stuff is
great as an historical exercise in how things used to be done, and it's also
commendable as a romantic ideal, but it's hardly practical in the modern
world.

Paul

Peter Clinch said:

No, you'll possibly have lots of people thinking they'll be just fine
as long as they have a GPS with them as that way they can call up the
MRT on their pocket 'phone and get rescued at a given GR, as opposed
to thinking "it's a bit beyond me up there, I'd better stay down
here".
Ask your local MRT is the portable telephone has or has not increased
the number of waste-of-time calls they receive. Extrapolate that
level of selfish foolishness to include universal GPS ownership.

I think the real problem here, if any, is the tendency to call the MRT on a
mobile phone. It's the phones that are the problem, not the GPS. Of
course, more people are likely to call for help if they have the means to,
but the GPS issue is separate from that. If you own a GPS but not a mobile
phone, does that make you more likely to call the MRT? Of course not.

In fact, this might be an appropriate time to relate a story that I may not
have mentioned before, concerning a couple of people I know who shall remain
unnamed. They went off on a walk, using only a GPS for navigation. They
didn't even have a map, but felt quite safe because they'd marked the
location of their tents, in a forest. Guess what, the walk took longer than
expected, it got dark, so they had to use torches. Their torches ran out of
batteries so they had to resort to using the GPS batteries instead, swapping
them over as needed to check their position. Eventually the batteries died
and they ended up with no torches and no GPS. Where were the tents? It
took them many hours of stumbling around in the dark to eventually find
them.

Would a map and compass have helped? Probably not, since they didn't know
how to use them properly anyway. At least no-one died. This is a true
story.

At least they didn't waste the time of the MRT, because they didn't have a
mobile phone, but if they had, and if the situation had been life
threatening, surely that would have been better than risking a fatality?

Paul

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

The main point being that "some" walkers appear to see a GPS just as
new-fangled technology NOT as a safety aid.

Whether or not it is a safety aid is beside the point. As I pointed
out, there's no shortage of possible safety aids you can take along
with you

But you don't have to take a ton of extra stuff. The key thing is to take
the *key* items that will ensure that you don't have to take a ton of extra
stuff. Navigation is the key. If you can navigate you don't need all that
extra stuff. Navigation? Map, compass, GPS. Simple. Only half a pound
extra required.

Paul

Peewiglet wrote:

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Whether or not it is a safety aid is beside the point.

Why are you in denial? 🙂

Yep, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. No disrespect Peter,
but your obvious skill and experience with compass navigation seems to be
blinding you to the fact that there are many other people out there who just
can't navigate as well as you. It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be
able to use a compass proficiently.

Quoted message said:

I don't understand why some people are unwilling to admit the obvious
in relation to GPSs. In the situation the blokes were in, a working
GPS would have been a great help to the rescuers. No other safety aid
in existance could have done the same job. End of story!

Quite. If all else fails, turn the GPS on.

Paul