Best roadbike for rough pave'?

[Johnny Sunset]

Patrick Lamb wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2006 06:45:46 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Tom's been really active recently about many things bicycling by
> >injecting 'bents this and that. I wonder if he's looking for somebody
> >to 'challenge' him. Well here ya go Tom. Bents answer no question,
> >solve no problem when compared to a well fitting upright, double
> >triangle road bike. They do, however, add some complexity and problems
> >not found on uprights.
> >
> Hmm, so do you think it's necessary to wear a helmet while riding a
> bent?

The chance and/or severity of a head injury in a low speed fall [1] are
much less due to the lower head height of the rider.

[1] What bicycle helmets are designed for.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

 

[[email protected]]

Tom Sherman writes:

>> ... how's the campaign to get 'bents' into UCI racing btw?

> About as well as Moulton's and Y-Frame uprights.

> The UCI is not about progress in design.

> They banned recumbents in 1933 after the hour record was broken on a
> recumbent (Mochet Velocar).

That's the old recumbent saw, that would the UCI allow them, they
would be everyone's favorite bicycle. You may also have noted that
the UCI thinks the hour record is an athletic event rather than one of
technology by banning disk wheels and other forms of streamlining.

It's bad enough that stage races allow expensive highly specialized
vehicles for TT's and hill climbs. I would prefer that each team of
the TdF , for instance, qualify a team bicycle that must be ridden in
all stages by all members of a team. I don't see the benefit of mixing
technical with athletic competition. That's for what the IHPVA is.

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

> That's the old recumbent saw, that would the UCI allow them, they
> would be everyone's favorite bicycle. You may also have noted that
> the UCI thinks the hour record is an athletic event rather than one of
> technology by banning disk wheels and other forms of streamlining.

What they did to Obree was a shame though.

> It's bad enough that stage races allow expensive highly specialized
> vehicles for TT's and hill climbs. I would prefer that each team of
> the TdF , for instance, qualify a team bicycle that must be ridden in
> all stages by all members of a team. ...

Would you allow teams to change
tires between stages? Wheels? I would
allow tires but not wheels.

It would also be better if the
radios were outlawed. Communicate
only through action, verbiage, and
various stern looks.

Robert

 

[Johnny Sunset]

Jobst Brandt <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Sherman writes:
>
> >> ... how's the campaign to get 'bents' into UCI racing btw?
>
> > About as well as Moulton's and Y-Frame uprights.
>
> > The UCI is not about progress in design.
>
> > They banned recumbents in 1933 after the hour record was broken on a
> > recumbent (Mochet Velocar).
>
> That's the old recumbent saw, that would the UCI allow them, they
> would be everyone's favorite bicycle....

And just where did I say or imply that?

> You may also have noted that
> the UCI thinks the hour record is an athletic event rather than one of
> technology by banning disk wheels and other forms of streamlining.

Yes, that is the UCI opinion. As an opinion, there is no right or wrong
answer on this question, but the opinion that it is unfortunate that
there is no major level competition that advances technical development
is also equally valid.

> It's bad enough that stage races allow expensive highly specialized
> vehicles for TT's and hill climbs. I would prefer that each team of
> the TdF , for instance, qualify a team bicycle that must be ridden in
> all stages by all members of a team.

However, the UCI rules are still constrained enough that there is no
real advantage gained through the equipment used.

> I don't see the benefit of mixing technical with athletic competition. That's for what the
> IHPVA is.

However, the question of relative performance will not be
satisfactorily answered unless there is competition between different
bicycle types with top class riders.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> Maybe. Maybe not. Since I don't work for Rivendell, don't know Grant
> Petersen personally, am not privy to their business data, nor
> omnicient, I can't say. Maybe you should e-mail or call Rivendell and
> ask how many they've sold. Also, Rivendell is selling three bike
> models with the 650B wheel size, and there are at least 4 custom or
> semi-custom builders offering 650B frames made in the US. These are
> all business people, and if they felt there was no demand they
> wouldn't do it.

You start the paragraph with a disclaimer that you do not
know GP's mind, and finish by asserting that you do. One
of the articles of contention is whether there is a
demand or whether factions are attempting to generate
demand. You have now restated your position.

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> The 650B allows a large tire in a diameter only a few mm smaller than
> a 700 x 23 (same overall diameter as a 700 x 19), which reduces the
> problems of designing a frame for a large section tire. There are a
> range of tires available from Michelin, Schwalbe, Panaracer,
> Mistuboshi and Kenda plus a small-label Japanese maker which range
> from a pseudo-racing tire (the Michelin Megamium) to big old
> semi-knobbies. It's fairly easy to build a bike with clearance for 37
> mm 650Bs with fenders in a broad range of sizes, whereas it's harder
> to build a bike for a similar section 700C wheel in sizes under 58
> cm. Try putting a Schwalbe Big Apple into almost any road frame!

Disagree that there is intrinsic difficulty building a
frame to clear large diameter rims with wide tires. My
Raleigh International runs 27" rims, 630x32 tires with
plenty of room for fenders and even larger tires.

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> I continue to be amazed at the dudgeon people work themselves into
> over Rivendell. It's really astonishing. They do things a little
> different, and people react like it's a direct insult to them
> personally.

What people react to is the voice of sweet reason
and odor of sanctity.

--
Michael Press

 

[Johnny Sunset]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > The 650B allows a large tire in a diameter only a few mm smaller than
> > a 700 x 23 (same overall diameter as a 700 x 19), which reduces the
> > problems of designing a frame for a large section tire. There are a
> > range of tires available from Michelin, Schwalbe, Panaracer,
> > Mistuboshi and Kenda plus a small-label Japanese maker which range
> > from a pseudo-racing tire (the Michelin Megamium) to big old
> > semi-knobbies. It's fairly easy to build a bike with clearance for 37
> > mm 650Bs with fenders in a broad range of sizes, whereas it's harder
> > to build a bike for a similar section 700C wheel in sizes under 58
> > cm. Try putting a Schwalbe Big Apple into almost any road frame!
>
> Disagree that there is intrinsic difficulty building a
> frame to clear large diameter rims with wide tires. My
> Raleigh International runs 27" rims, 630x32 tires with
> plenty of room for fenders and even larger tires.

32-mm is not a wide tire. This is a wide tire:
<http://www.schwalbetires.com/on_tour.php?Nickname=BIG%20APPLE&Image=TireImages/big_apple.gif>.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Johnny Sunset wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Picture of lowracer with invisible, weightless fairing:
> > > <http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg>.
> > >
> > Yowser-you actually ride that? With a straight face.
>
> Not only do I ride the bicycle pictured, but have a second one as a
> reserve (only 20 were built).
>
> > It does point out much of the uniqueness of 'bents. Like no water bottles,
>
> Correction: the Sunset has two conventional water bottle mount
> braze-ons.
>
> > inability to easily look behind you,
>
> I can see as well behind me as an automobile (convertible, top down)
> driver.
>
> > very unique parts, tubes, tires
>
> The tires are ISO 305-mm and ISO 406-mm. I can get emergency
> replacement tires and tubes at practically every hardware and discount
> store in North America, since these are common children's and BMX
> sizes. The same can not be said for ISO 622-mm (700C) which are
> typically only available at bike shops.
>
> > and geezzz, look at the chain(s).
>
> The Sunset uses the same type of chains sold in every bike store,
> including (I presume) Vecchio's.
>
> > Very complicated answer to a pretty simple question, looks like to me...getting onto a
> > machine and propelling one's self.
>
> The seat is more comfortable than ANY office chair or automotive seat I
> have tried. I do not believe that could be said about any upright
> saddle.
>
> It is fun to say "what wind?" when everyone else is complaining about
> battling headwinds.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Glad you like it. When I broke my back 3.5 years ago, one quack said I
might only be able to ride a 'bent'...I said I'd rather walk. Hardware
store..like home depot for tires...only one here in Boulder has bicycle
tires and they have 700c as well.

 

[[email protected]]

A shy person writes:

>> That's the old recumbent saw, that would the UCI allow them, they
>> would be everyone's favorite bicycle. You may also have noted that
>> the UCI thinks the hour record is an athletic event rather than one of
>> technology by banning disk wheels and other forms of streamlining.

> What they did to Obree was a shame though.

I don't think so. The mistake was to do it after the fact instead of
being clear on equipment before.

>> It's bad enough that stage races allow expensive highly specialized
>> vehicles for TT's and hill climbs. I would prefer that each team
>> of the TdF , for instance, qualify a team bicycle that must be
>> ridden in all stages by all members of a team. ...

> Would you allow teams to change tires between stages? Wheels? I
> would allow tires but not wheels.

No! Only the same wheels that they chose for general use. Of course
a rider could accept any wheel from other teams that choose to do so,
their wheels being just as general usage as the rest. What does the
public get out of all this special equipment in appreciation of the
race or for that matter when they buy a bicycle?

> It would also be better if the radios were outlawed. Communicate
> only through action, verbiage, and various stern looks.

I also proposed that to the UCI before commo became part of the show.
However, Greg Lemond would not have won the World Championship in
Altenrhein (CH) had they had radios. The Italian on his wheel would
have radioed "I've got the bonks, send a chase group!" Instead the
Italians were blocking in the field, knowing they had a good sprinter
sitting on Greg's wheel.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Johnny Sunset wrote:
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > > Johnny Sunset wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > Picture of lowracer with invisible, weightless fairing:
> > > >
<http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg>.
> > > >
> > > Yowser-you actually ride that? With a straight face.
> >
> > Not only do I ride the bicycle pictured, but have a second
one as a
> > reserve (only 20 were built).
> >
> > > It does point out much of the uniqueness of 'bents. Like no
water bottles,
> >
> > Correction: the Sunset has two conventional water bottle
mount
> > braze-ons.
> >
> > > inability to easily look behind you,
> >
> > I can see as well behind me as an automobile (convertible,
top down)
> > driver.
> >
> > > very unique parts, tubes, tires
> >
> > The tires are ISO 305-mm and ISO 406-mm. I can get emergency
> > replacement tires and tubes at practically every hardware and
discount
> > store in North America, since these are common children's and
BMX
> > sizes. The same can not be said for ISO 622-mm (700C) which
are
> > typically only available at bike shops.
> >
> > > and geezzz, look at the chain(s).
> >
> > The Sunset uses the same type of chains sold in every bike
store,
> > including (I presume) Vecchio's.
> >
> > > Very complicated answer to a pretty simple question, looks
like to me...getting onto a
> > > machine and propelling one's self.
> >
> > The seat is more comfortable than ANY office chair or
automotive seat I
> > have tried. I do not believe that could be said about any
upright
> > saddle.
> >
> > It is fun to say "what wind?" when everyone else is
complaining about
> > battling headwinds.
> >
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
>
> Glad you like it. When I broke my back 3.5 years ago, one quack
said I
> might only be able to ride a 'bent'...I said I'd rather walk.
Hardware
> store..like home depot for tires...only one here in Boulder has
bicycle
> tires and they have 700c as well.

I saw a whole bunch of 'bents with fabric fairings going down a
bicycle trail at the end of summer and thought the circus was in
town. There were guys with Batman fairings, among other
motiffs. No offense to Tom, but, really, do you need a Batman
fairing for riding down a bicycle trail at about 12mph? I have
to admit, too, that a lot of fat guys on really expensive diamond
frame bikes with full team kits rode by, too -- which was equally
embarrassing.

And let me say that I own a 'bent -- which I bought for my wife
who has a neurological movement disorder, but my ten year old son
seems to ride it the most. The 'bent is fun and comfortable
(except for the low speed wheel flop, that takes a long while to
get used to). Not something I would want to ride on a long climb
either, being that I like to stand and not drag around a million
pounds. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Tim McNamara]

[email protected] writes:

> No! Only the same wheels that they chose for general use. Of
> course a rider could accept any wheel from other teams that choose
> to do so, their wheels being just as general usage as the rest.
> What does the public get out of all this special equipment in
> appreciation of the race or for that matter when they buy a bicycle?

The opportunity to feel part of the elite. You can't buy Michael
Schumacher's F1 car, but you can buy a bike identical to Lance's. And
therefore you own "the best." Or something. To some people that's
important. For other people, like me, it might be a handbuilt custom
steel frame that fits their definition of "best." That can be every
bit as snooty and elitist!

 

[bfd]

<a Saluki is a bicycle fashion statement.>

If you think the Saluki is a "fashion statement," what do you call the
Glorius/Wilbury with their mixte frames, 650B (584mm) wheels and
centerpull brakes?

http://www.rivbike.com/html/bikes_mixte.html

As for "demand," I think there are several thousand riders who tend to
follow Grant P./Rivendell. With the internet this is usually enough to
make a statement. In general, I like some of the things Grant/Riv
preach - higher stems, hand built wheels, and steel frames (although I
ride a Calfee carbon).

I certainly don't always agree with everything he pushes - centerpull
brakes, friction bar-end shifters, but hey, if 650B gets people riding,
then so be it!

Don't forget, in France there's a "society" of riders who value 650B
wheels. Now, let's be clear, this "society" has maybe a few thousand
members. Hardly a majority. Still, factor in the rest of Europe, Japan
and the several hundred riders in the US and you should realistically
have about 3,000 to 6,000 650B users in the world. Of course, there's
probably more tri-riders in San Diego using 650C (571mm) wheels.

The key is with QBP involvement, 650B has a chance to succeed. Only
time will tell...

 

[SMS]

bfd wrote:

> As for "demand," I think there are several thousand riders who tend to
> follow Grant P./Rivendell. With the internet this is usually enough to
> make a statement. In general, I like some of the things Grant/Riv
> preach - higher stems, hand built wheels, and steel frames (although I
> ride a Calfee carbon).

I feel the same way. I almost bought a Romulus, but didn't like the
bar-end shifters, and it would have cost about $200 to change them to
brifters versus about $50 if Rivendell had offered them. I'd have
probably bought it if it had down-tube shifters though, I just hate
bar-end shifters. In the end, I decided that my old lugged chromoloy
Specialized road bike was sufficient for my needs, and that the $1500
was better spent elsewhere.

But Grant is right on the money with the issues of too-low stems,
too-small frames, tire clearances, and metallurgy issues.

 

[[email protected]]

Tim McNamara writes:

>> No! Only the same wheels that they chose for general use. Of
>> course a rider could accept any wheel from other teams that choose
>> to do so, their wheels being just as general usage as the rest.
>> What does the public get out of all this special equipment in
>> appreciation of the race or for that matter when they buy a
>> bicycle?

> The opportunity to feel part of the elite. You can't buy Michael
> Schumacher's F1 car, but you can buy a bike identical to Lance's.
> And therefore you own "the best." Or something. To some people
> that's important. For other people, like me, it might be a
> hand built custom steel frame that fits their definition of "best."
> That can be every bit as snooty and elitist!

I guess that's my point, the IHPVA is a competition like F1 car racing
while bicycling is an athletic event. Even in Baseball we aren't
using aluminum bats and Superballs to make the ball parks too small.
Formula One is primarily a technological competition and drivers are
the frosting on the cake. Besides, we as consumers profited greatly
from the advances made at the cost of million$ by the F1 teams.

Jobst Brandt

 

[bfd]

< we as consumers profited greatly from the advances made at the cost
of million$ by the F1 teams.>

So, do "consumers" or even *average* cyclist benefit from the millions
(or least hundreds of thousands) spent on UCI "racing" bikes? For
example, wasn't Shimano STI (and Campy Ergo) levers developed for UCI
racing bikes? Now that its found on almost all new bikes, did consumers
benefit? Some may ask, are STI/Ergo levers beneficial to the average
recreational rider? Or should they all be using dt or bar-end shifters?

Further, does anyone benefit from the money spent on IHPVA
"competitions?"

 

[Jay Beattie]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tim McNamara writes:
>
> >> No! Only the same wheels that they chose for general use.
Of
> >> course a rider could accept any wheel from other teams that
choose
> >> to do so, their wheels being just as general usage as the
rest.
> >> What does the public get out of all this special equipment
in
> >> appreciation of the race or for that matter when they buy a
> >> bicycle?
>
> > The opportunity to feel part of the elite. You can't buy
Michael
> > Schumacher's F1 car, but you can buy a bike identical to
Lance's.
> > And therefore you own "the best." Or something. To some
people
> > that's important. For other people, like me, it might be a
> > hand built custom steel frame that fits their definition of
"best."
> > That can be every bit as snooty and elitist!
>
> I guess that's my point, the IHPVA is a competition like F1 car
racing
> while bicycling is an athletic event. Even in Baseball we
aren't
> using aluminum bats and Superballs to make the ball parks too
small.
> Formula One is primarily a technological competition and
drivers are
> the frosting on the cake. Besides, we as consumers profited
greatly
> from the advances made at the cost of million$ by the F1 teams.

Hell, make it really hard. Hang weights off the bikes and turn
it into a show of strength like the Highland games or something.
"Honey, why are those men throwing telephone poles?" Have you
ever seen a carbon fiber caber? See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_toss Real men -- in
dresses! -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Tim McNamara]

[email protected] writes:

> Tim McNamara writes:
>
>>> No! Only the same wheels that they chose for general use. Of
>>> course a rider could accept any wheel from other teams that choose
>>> to do so, their wheels being just as general usage as the rest.
>>> What does the public get out of all this special equipment in
>>> appreciation of the race or for that matter when they buy a
>>> bicycle?
>
>> The opportunity to feel part of the elite. You can't buy Michael
>> Schumacher's F1 car, but you can buy a bike identical to Lance's.
>> And therefore you own "the best." Or something. To some people
>> that's important. For other people, like me, it might be a hand
>> built custom steel frame that fits their definition of "best."
>> That can be every bit as snooty and elitist!
>
> I guess that's my point, the IHPVA is a competition like F1 car
> racing while bicycling is an athletic event. Even in Baseball we
> aren't using aluminum bats and Superballs to make the ball parks too
> small. Formula One is primarily a technological competition and
> drivers are the frosting on the cake. Besides, we as consumers
> profited greatly from the advances made at the cost of million$ by
> the F1 teams.

I've never been to an IHPVA event but the technology does seem
interesting. The speeds achieved every year at Battle Mountain are
astonishing. I wonder how much of that technology has trickled down
to "normal" consumer bicycles. There are some high-tech recumbents
and velomobiles of various configurations, some of which owe
technology to IHPVA type stuff, but these are still very much the
minority in cycling. I must see a couple hundreds people on "regular"
bikes for every one person I see on any sort of recumbent.

Around here we have the self-proclaimed "Human Powered Ice Vehicle
World Speed Championships." Not sure much of that technology has
trickled into regular bikes, but it's entertaining as all get-out.

http://mnhpva.org/ice/Ice.html

 

[Tim McNamara]

"bfd" <[email protected]> writes:

> < we as consumers profited greatly from the advances made at the
> cost of million$ by the F1 teams.>
>
> So, do "consumers" or even *average* cyclist benefit from the
> millions (or least hundreds of thousands) spent on UCI "racing"
> bikes? For example, wasn't Shimano STI (and Campy Ergo) levers
> developed for UCI racing bikes? Now that its found on almost all new
> bikes, did consumers benefit? Some may ask, are STI/Ergo levers
> beneficial to the average recreational rider? Or should they all be
> using dt or bar-end shifters?

Let's not reopen *that* hermetically sealed container of Lumbricidae,
eh?

Have consumers benefitted from those bikes? Well, it depends on how
you identify "benefits." After all, the benefits derived from auto
racing are quite clear: effective disk brakes, sophisticated
suspension systems, better fuel economy at the same or better power
production, greater reliability, safer vehicles, etc.

Bicycles are much simpler and the benefits derived from racing bikes
are perhaps more debatable. Stiffer, lighter, etc are of value when
the differences are large and of less value when the differences are
minute. Humorously enough, though, racing bikes 50-60 years ago were
benefitting from the development of touring bicycles- thanks to the
Luddite tendencies of Henri Desgranges.

> Further, does anyone benefit from the money spent on IHPVA
> "competitions?"

Other than those people who are directly involved? I dunno. I asked
just about the same question. I can't think of anything that has
transferred from the Varna or similar bikes to regular bikes. But I
have no doubt that recumbent designs have benefitted. I don't ride
one of those, however.

 

[Tim McNamara]

"bfd" <[email protected]> writes:

> <a Saluki is a bicycle fashion statement.>
>
> If you think the Saluki is a "fashion statement," what do you call
> the Glorius/Wilbury with their mixte frames, 650B (584mm) wheels and
> centerpull brakes?
>
> http://www.rivbike.com/html/bikes_mixte.html
>
> As for "demand," I think there are several thousand riders who tend
> to follow Grant P./Rivendell. With the internet this is usually
> enough to make a statement. In general, I like some of the things
> Grant/Riv preach - higher stems, hand built wheels, and steel frames
> (although I ride a Calfee carbon).

While I think there are some who "follow" Grant et al, I think it is
fairer to say that Grant has found an audience of people with similar
values in cycling. Enough to have kept Rivendell in business for 12
years so far, when a number of "non-retro-grouch" bike businesses have
gone belly up.

> The key is with QBP involvement, 650B has a chance to succeed. Only
> time will tell...

Yup.