Best states (west of great lakes) for cycling

[Bill Sornson]

Dane Buson wrote:
> Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dane Buson wrote:
>>>
>>> I know multiple people who have received helmet tickets. At least
>>> one person has collected two. I only know one person who has
>>> received a red-light ticket.
>>
>> Unfortunately for your side, personal anecdotes are not admissable
>> evidence of anything. (Just ask anyone who submits that a lid saved
>> him or her a few stitches or a concussion, much less more.)
>
> I wasn't aware I had a side, much less one of my very own. Perhaps I
> should think up a fetching name for it, perhaps buy it a nice outfit
> for long rides in the country.
>
> More seriously, do you understand the difference between assertion of
> fact versus supposition?

Knowing a few people who allegedly received citations is not proof that some
regulation (obscure or not) is strictly enforced.

As for the "side" business, I should not have assumed you're an AHZ. My
apologies.

BS

 

[[email protected]]

Claire Petersky wrote:

> >>> The only significant MHLs for adults that I know of are
> >>> King County, Washington (Seattle metro) and Dallas.
> >>> Fair reason for a cyclist to avoid moving to those areas, imo,
>
> To me, this would be a bizzare reason not to move to some place, but to each
> his own.

To me, it would be bizarre to live in one of the
only places in the country where adults are mandated
to wear bicycle helmets.

Are there any groups in Seattle working to
get this law repealed?

Robert

 

[Dane Buson]

Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
>> Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Dane Buson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know multiple people who have received helmet tickets. At least
>>>> one person has collected two. I only know one person who has
>>>> received a red-light ticket.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately for your side, personal anecdotes are not admissable
>>> evidence of anything. (Just ask anyone who submits that a lid saved
>>> him or her a few stitches or a concussion, much less more.)
>>
>> I wasn't aware I had a side, much less one of my very own. Perhaps I
>> should think up a fetching name for it, perhaps buy it a nice outfit
>> for long rides in the country.
>>
>> More seriously, do you understand the difference between assertion of
>> fact versus supposition?
>
> Knowing a few people who allegedly received citations is not proof that some
> regulation (obscure or not) is strictly enforced.

If you wander back up thread, I never said it was strictly enforced. I
said it was *capriciously* enforced. Considering the statement I was
responding to was that helmet laws would *never* be enforced, I don't
think stating I know multiple people who've received them is much of a
logical leap.

> As for the "side" business, I should not have assumed you're an AHZ. My
> apologies.

Meh, I don't have much ego invested in the issue. I wear one most of
the time primarily since the Mercer Island and Bellevue police tend to
hassle helmetless cyclists (Seattle PD doesn't seem to care for the most
part).

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
"Ladies may have a fit upstairs."
-Outside a Hong Kong tailor shop

 

[Bill Sornson]

Dane Buson wrote:
> Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dane Buson wrote:
>>> Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Dane Buson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I know multiple people who have received helmet tickets. At least
>>>>> one person has collected two. I only know one person who has
>>>>> received a red-light ticket.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately for your side, personal anecdotes are not admissable
>>>> evidence of anything. (Just ask anyone who submits that a lid
>>>> saved him or her a few stitches or a concussion, much less more.)
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware I had a side, much less one of my very own. Perhaps
>>> I should think up a fetching name for it, perhaps buy it a nice
>>> outfit for long rides in the country.
>>>
>>> More seriously, do you understand the difference between assertion
>>> of fact versus supposition?
>>
>> Knowing a few people who allegedly received citations is not proof
>> that some regulation (obscure or not) is strictly enforced.
>
> If you wander back up thread, I never said it was strictly enforced.
> I said it was *capriciously* enforced. Considering the statement I
> was responding to was that helmet laws would *never* be enforced, I
> don't think stating I know multiple people who've received them is
> much of a logical leap.

OK, my only /intended/ point was that anti-liddites scoff at any personal
experience or anecdotes by pro-liddites, always lauding their vaunted "whole
population statistics" as the only valid source. By that logic (decidely
faulty), your friends' experience gettting tickets would have no bearing.

You're right, though -- I came in mid-thread and didn't check for full
context or content.

>> As for the "side" business, I should not have assumed you're an AHZ.
>> My apologies.
>
> Meh, I don't have much ego invested in the issue. I wear one most of
> the time primarily since the Mercer Island and Bellevue police tend to
> hassle helmetless cyclists (Seattle PD doesn't seem to care for the
> most part).

I wear one because it might do me some good should I take a fall.

Bill S.

 

[[email protected]]

On Mar 10, 11:32 pm, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:14:26 -0500, Just A User
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:55:06 -0500, Just A User
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>>> I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
> >>>> important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
> >>>> west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
> >>>> cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
> >>>> that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
> >>>> regular road riding?
>
> >>>> Ken
> >>> Arizona, California, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, Montana,
> >>> Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin
> >>> all have mandatory helmet laws in part or the whole of the state (so
> >>> does Alaska, but although that is "west of the Great Lakes" I presume
> >>> it was not under consideration).
>
> >>> The above list may not include all states; MHL's are becoming more and
> >>> more popular with American governments, and there may have been more
> >>> passed since last time I checked.
> >> Thats an interesting point one that I had not even thought of, here in
> >> Florida, there is no such law, that I know of anyway.
>
> > Something in excess of three million residents of Florida must by law
> > wear a helmet if they choose to cycle.
>
> > Florida passed an under-16 state-wide MHL in 1997; currently it allows
> > counties to opt out, and some (3) did so, but reports are that they
> > have all now rescinded.
>
> Yeah but that law is for those under 16 years of age, I am in my 30's.
>
> Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've been riding with MHLs in Australia since 1975. Once you are used
to it, it's not a bother - except for having to buy a helmet every few
years. In fact, when I forget to take my helmet, it feels wrong and I
go home to get it. One side benefit is weather protection - sun or
cold. I usually hang it on the bars for a long climb. So OK, fight
MHLs if you like, but don't change where you live on that basis. That
would be losing proportion.

Donga

 

[[email protected]]

On 11 Mar 2007 22:12:10 -0700, [email protected] wrote:



>I've been riding with MHLs in Australia since 1975.

Isn't that where following the introduction of the MHL

a) the sudden change in the % of helmet weraing had no effect on
injury rates; and

b) cycling dropped markedly?

 

[Roger Zoul]

[email protected] wrote:
:: Claire Petersky wrote:
::
:::::: The only significant MHLs for adults that I know of are
:::::: King County, Washington (Seattle metro) and Dallas.
:::::: Fair reason for a cyclist to avoid moving to those areas, imo,
:::
::: To me, this would be a bizzare reason not to move to some place,
::: but to each his own.
::
:: To me, it would be bizarre to live in one of the
:: only places in the country where adults are mandated
:: to wear bicycle helmets.

You mean adults are forced to walk/drive/run/swim in bike helmets? While
moving inside their homes, too? Yes, that would be very bizarre.

 

[Roger Zoul]

Pat wrote:
::: Yeah or if the cop is bored enough from doughnuts and needs
::: something to keep them awake and sees a cyclist without a helmet
::: and thinks well it's stupid but it gives me something to do.
:::
::: Ken
::
:: I don't believe this would happen for a second! When I was living in
:: Maryland, I used to see numerous cars with only one headlight.
:: Sometimes, I would count 23 and up just driving home! Finally, I
:: asked a local cop if it wasn't illegal to only have one headlight.
:: He said, "Yeah, but I don't see them unless they are going the other
:: direction, and it's too much trouble to turn around."
::
:: bicycle laws? no way! If they were going to enforce them, they
:: would start with the wrong-way riding or the crossing against the
:: light or the sidewalk riding. But helmets? not in a jillion years!
::
:: Pat in TX

If I were a cop and bored, and a cute girl came by on a bike with no helmet,
I'd stop her. I wouldn't ticket her but I'd suggest she consider wearing a
helmet.

 

[Just A User]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> :: Claire Petersky wrote:
> ::
> :::::: The only significant MHLs for adults that I know of are
> :::::: King County, Washington (Seattle metro) and Dallas.
> :::::: Fair reason for a cyclist to avoid moving to those areas, imo,
> :::
> ::: To me, this would be a bizzare reason not to move to some place,
> ::: but to each his own.
> ::
> :: To me, it would be bizarre to live in one of the
> :: only places in the country where adults are mandated
> :: to wear bicycle helmets.
>
> You mean adults are forced to walk/drive/run/swim in bike helmets? While
> moving inside their homes, too? Yes, that would be very bizarre.
>
>
>
How about while engaging in /energetic/ sexual intercourse? That would
be bizarre.

Ken

 

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:20:02 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>:: Claire Petersky wrote:
>::
>:::::: The only significant MHLs for adults that I know of are
>:::::: King County, Washington (Seattle metro) and Dallas.
>:::::: Fair reason for a cyclist to avoid moving to those areas, imo,
>:::
>::: To me, this would be a bizzare reason not to move to some place,
>::: but to each his own.
>::
>:: To me, it would be bizarre to live in one of the
>:: only places in the country where adults are mandated
>:: to wear bicycle helmets.
>
>You mean adults are forced to walk/drive/run/swim in bike helmets? While
>moving inside their homes, too? Yes, that would be very bizarre.
>
>

There was a time when children wore helmets while walking (to school)
in Japan; they found that, like cycling, there was no effect on injury
rates, so they stopped it.

Unlike the USofA, which

a) had the first MHL; and

b) has more MHL's than anyplace in the world.

 

[Claire Petersky]

"Dane Buson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Eh, a lot of the rest of it does have that terrible superblock grid
> setup. Living near Crossroads, I grew to loathe it in pretty short
> order. Would it have killed them to make it possible for pedestrians
> and cyclists to cut through?


Mid-60s - mid-70s development. Was there anything more auto-centric?

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

 

[gds]

On Mar 9, 7:06 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:55:06 -0500, Just A User
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
> >important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
> >west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
> >cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
> >that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
> >regular road riding?
>
> >Ken
>
> Arizona, California, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, Montana,
> Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin
> all have mandatory helmet laws in part or the whole of the state (so
> does Alaska, but although that is "west of the Great Lakes" I presume
> it was not under consideration).
>
> The above list may not include all states; MHL's are becoming more and
> more popular with American governments, and there may have been more
> passed since last time I checked.

Uhh! Arizona does not have a MHL for adults. Don't know about the
others you list.

 

[gds]

On Mar 9, 2:55 pm, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
> important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
> west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
> cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
> that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
> regular road riding?
>
> Ken

Well it may not work for you but if you see where a huge number of
pros and top amateurs come to ride (and often stay) Tucson is high on
the list. Great roads, many classic climbs, and good weather all year.
Yep a bit toasty in the summer but you'll see the roads full of
cyclists at 6 a.m. a folks are all done by 10. It is seldom much above
80 at that time.

 

[Just A User]

gds wrote:
> On Mar 9, 2:55 pm, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
>> important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
>> west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
>> cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
>> that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
>> regular road riding?
>>
>> Ken
>
> Well it may not work for you but if you see where a huge number of
> pros and top amateurs come to ride (and often stay) Tucson is high on
> the list. Great roads, many classic climbs, and good weather all year.
> Yep a bit toasty in the summer but you'll see the roads full of
> cyclists at 6 a.m. a folks are all done by 10. It is seldom much above
> 80 at that time.
>
Well the one AZ city that's currently on my list is Scottsdale. But I am
open minded. I have long wanted to live in the desert, why I am not
completely sure. I visited Phoenix a few years back, in January, and
thought the weather was great. As far as riding goes, I ride here in
Florida in the summer in the early morning hours as well, usually done
by 10 or 11. So that is similar.

Ken

 

[gds]

On Mar 12, 8:57 am, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> gds wrote:
> > On Mar 9, 2:55 pm, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
> >> important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
> >> west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
> >> cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
> >> that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
> >> regular road riding?
>
> >> Ken
>
> > Well it may not work for you but if you see where a huge number of
> > pros and top amateurs come to ride (and often stay) Tucson is high on
> > the list. Great roads, many classic climbs, and good weather all year.
> > Yep a bit toasty in the summer but you'll see the roads full of
> > cyclists at 6 a.m. a folks are all done by 10. It is seldom much above
> > 80 at that time.
>
> Well the one AZ city that's currently on my list is Scottsdale. But I am
> open minded. I have long wanted to live in the desert, why I am not
> completely sure. I visited Phoenix a few years back, in January, and
> thought the weather was great. As far as riding goes, I ride here in
> Florida in the summer in the early morning hours as well, usually done
> by 10 or 11. So that is similar.
>
> Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The Phoenix area is huge. Scottsdale is nice but if you looked at the
roads from a cycling perspective I think you'd find them quite crowded
as the population density is high and getting higher.
Also, Phoenix is a great area for employment as it is a major metro
area. But traffic is terrible and summer temps are very much higher
with higher humididty than further south.

 

[[email protected]]

On 12 Mar 2007 08:11:16 -0700, "gds" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mar 9, 7:06 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:55:06 -0500, Just A User
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
>> >important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
>> >west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
>> >cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
>> >that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
>> >regular road riding?
>>
>> >Ken
>>
>> Arizona, California, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, Montana,
>> Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Washington, and Wisconsin
>> all have mandatory helmet laws in part or the whole of the state (so
>> does Alaska, but although that is "west of the Great Lakes" I presume
>> it was not under consideration).
>>
>> The above list may not include all states; MHL's are becoming more and
>> more popular with American governments, and there may have been more
>> passed since last time I checked.
>
>Uhh! Arizona does not have a MHL for adults.

True, they do not.

Yet.

 

[Dane Buson]

Claire Petersky <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Dane Buson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Eh, a lot of the rest of it does have that terrible superblock grid
>> setup. Living near Crossroads, I grew to loathe it in pretty short
>> order. Would it have killed them to make it possible for pedestrians
>> and cyclists to cut through?
>
> Mid-60s - mid-70s development. Was there anything more auto-centric?

Oh, I know you're right. 'King Car' certainly was the impetus for the
way the area was built. I've certainly seen worse though. I'm not
looking forward to my trip to Cincinnati this summer. Ick.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
handshaking protocol, n:
A process employed by hostile hardware devices to initate a
terse but civil dialogue, which, in turn, is characterized by
occasional misunderstanding, sulking, and name-calling.

 

[Just A User]

gds wrote:
> On Mar 12, 8:57 am, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
>> gds wrote:
>>> On Mar 9, 2:55 pm, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
>>>> important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
>>>> west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
>>>> cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
>>>> that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
>>>> regular road riding?
>>>> Ken
>>> Well it may not work for you but if you see where a huge number of
>>> pros and top amateurs come to ride (and often stay) Tucson is high on
>>> the list. Great roads, many classic climbs, and good weather all year.
>>> Yep a bit toasty in the summer but you'll see the roads full of
>>> cyclists at 6 a.m. a folks are all done by 10. It is seldom much above
>>> 80 at that time.
>> Well the one AZ city that's currently on my list is Scottsdale. But I am
>> open minded. I have long wanted to live in the desert, why I am not
>> completely sure. I visited Phoenix a few years back, in January, and
>> thought the weather was great. As far as riding goes, I ride here in
>> Florida in the summer in the early morning hours as well, usually done
>> by 10 or 11. So that is similar.
>>
>> Ken- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> The Phoenix area is huge. Scottsdale is nice but if you looked at the
> roads from a cycling perspective I think you'd find them quite crowded
> as the population density is high and getting higher.
> Also, Phoenix is a great area for employment as it is a major metro
> area. But traffic is terrible and summer temps are very much higher
> with higher humididty than further south.
>
Well yeah Phoenix is huge. Much larger than where I live now, south
Florida town of 17,000 but I have lived in larger cities before, Tampa
FL, Little Rock AR, Roanoke VA, Springfield MA, Providence RI so big
cities don't exactly scare me. But I am looking at cities with over
100,000 but less than 500,000

Ken

 

[Dane Buson]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> To me, it would be bizarre to live in one of the only places in the country
> where adults are mandated to wear bicycle helmets.
>
> Are there any groups in Seattle working to get this law repealed?

Not that I'm aware of. There's a certain amount of grumbling from
various cyclists, but no organized effort. It does not help that
Cascade, the largest bicycle club is pro-MHL.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
"The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire." -Voltaire

 

[gds]

On Mar 12, 10:47 am, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> gds wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 8:57 am, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> gds wrote:
> >>> On Mar 9, 2:55 pm, Just A User <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> I am giving very serious consideration to re-locating and this is
> >>>> important to me. So the questions is for those that have lived in areas
> >>>> west of the Great Lakes, which states provide the best areas for
> >>>> cycling, I have already checked on the rails to trails site and found
> >>>> that some of the areas I am considering have local trails, so how about
> >>>> regular road riding?
> >>>> Ken
> >>> Well it may not work for you but if you see where a huge number of
> >>> pros and top amateurs come to ride (and often stay) Tucson is high on
> >>> the list. Great roads, many classic climbs, and good weather all year.
> >>> Yep a bit toasty in the summer but you'll see the roads full of
> >>> cyclists at 6 a.m. a folks are all done by 10. It is seldom much above
> >>> 80 at that time.
> >> Well the one AZ city that's currently on my list is Scottsdale. But I am
> >> open minded. I have long wanted to live in the desert, why I am not
> >> completely sure. I visited Phoenix a few years back, in January, and
> >> thought the weather was great. As far as riding goes, I ride here in
> >> Florida in the summer in the early morning hours as well, usually done
> >> by 10 or 11. So that is similar.
>
> >> Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > The Phoenix area is huge. Scottsdale is nice but if you looked at the
> > roads from a cycling perspective I think you'd find them quite crowded
> > as the population density is high and getting higher.
> > Also, Phoenix is a great area for employment as it is a major metro
> > area. But traffic is terrible and summer temps are very much higher
> > with higher humididty than further south.
>
> Well yeah Phoenix is huge. Much larger than where I live now, south
> Florida town of 17,000 but I have lived in larger cities before, Tampa
> FL, Little Rock AR, Roanoke VA, Springfield MA, Providence RI so big
> cities don't exactly scare me. But I am looking at cities with over
> 100,000 but less than 500,000
>
> Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So, how how would you consider Scottsdale. Scottsdale is part of Metro
Phoenix and you are looking at ~4 million population.