brakes

Peter Cremasco said:

A question concerning brakes - particularly the two most common types: the caliper brakes
(anchored at one point on the fork head) and the linear pull (anchored at two points on the
fork leg).

Quoted message said:

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of locking up the wheels with
minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be squeezed very hard, and don't even appear to come
close to locking up the wheel.

Quoted message said:

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the linear pull on MTB or
hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes are much better, but be buggered if I can see
how. Surely not every roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

Quoted message said:

Can someone explain this to me? Is there another type of brake set up that looks like the caliper
and is much much better?

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

PeterC

Quoted message said:

---
Cheers

Quoted message said:

PeterC

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot calipers. Maybe it's just
a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared to dual-pivots, IMHO.

--
Nick

"Peter Cremasco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the linear pull on MTB or
hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes are much better, but be buggered if I can see
how. Surely not every roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

In my experience, single pivot are not so good whereas dual pivot are endo-inducing. But, to put
that into perspective, the price difference between the 2 bikes I'm thinking of is ~50x ($70 vs
$3500). Old MTB's typically have Cantilever brakes and new mtb's have "vee" brakes. Vee's are
another type of cantilever brake, but they have straight arms and no transverse cable. Vee's usually
appear to work better, but that is probably because they are easier to adjust and most old-style
canti's are improperly adjusted.

When you are talking about "squeeze really hard", etc, it sounds like a "mechanical advantage"
issue. You should try to read these articles:

sheldonbrown.comindex.htmlOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comcantilever adjustment.htmlOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comcantilever geometry.htmlOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comcantileverOpen ↗
geometry.html#mechanical

It could also be the fact that the rims are dirty or the pads are glazed. Rub down the rim's
sidewall with a scourer and run a file along the pads a few times to take off the shine. This
usually improves braking greatly.

Oh, checkout the newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech for some really wise bike dudes and dudettes talking
about this kind of bike tech..

hth hippy

Quoted message said:

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Absolutely. I have come to road from a MTB background in the last six months, and have found
calipers to be pretty stoneage as far as braking force and ease of use goes. My 2003 ultegra brakes
are nothing on my ancient '97 Deore XT Vees or even my other MTB's '97 LX linear-pulls. Given a
choice, Vees for me every time. Of course, roadies love their traditions, so for now I'll just live
in fear of that car pulling out in front of me...

"blah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Absolutely. I have come to road from a MTB background in the last six months, and have found
calipers to be pretty stoneage as far as braking force and ease of use goes. My 2003 ultegra
brakes are nothing on my ancient '97 Deore XT Vees or even my other MTB's '97 LX linear-pulls.
Given a choice, Vees for me every time. Of course, roadies love their traditions, so for now I'll
just live in fear of that car pulling out in front of me...

But on the road bike, you'll be in front of the car BEFORE it pulls out ;-) zoom zoom zoom

hippy

Quoted message said:

But on the road bike, you'll be in front of the car BEFORE it pulls out ;-) zoom zoom zoom

Damn straight. Seriously, the ultegra brakes are usually fine. The only times they've been any real
problem is twice when I've been barrelling down Whitehorse Road outbound just after Union Road; the
downhill with the crazy tram stops and both times cars have jumped across my path from (and into)
one of the side streets. Quite disconcerting to find that the brakes do little or nothing at sixty
plus. 'Course, since then I've calmed down a little and take this into account. Cheers; zoom on!

"blah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But on the road bike, you'll be in front of the car BEFORE it pulls out ;-) zoom zoom zoom

Damn straight. Seriously, the ultegra brakes are usually fine. The only times they've been any
real problem is twice when I've been barrelling down Whitehorse Road outbound just after Union
Road; the downhill with the crazy tram stops and both times cars have jumped across my path from
(and into) one of the side streets. Quite disconcerting to find that the brakes do little or
nothing at sixty plus. 'Course, since then I've calmed down a little and take this into account.
Cheers; zoom on!

My Ultegras seem to pull me up okay from 70+ coming down the mountain - much better than most other
brakes I've used (I've not used discs yet). What pads are you using with yours? How often do you
clean your braking surface and file your pads?

Cleaning rims and scraping brake pad surfaces clean are the most important factors in good braking
I've found. I've been using the super cheap BBB red pads for a year or so now with no probs.

hippy

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Peter Cremasco
A question concerning brakes - particularly the two most common types: the caliper brakes (anchored
at one point on the fork head) and the linear pull (anchored at two points on the fork leg).

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of locking up the wheels with
minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be squeezed very hard, and don't even appear to come
close to locking up the wheel.

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the linear pull on MTB or
hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes are much better, but be buggered if I can see how.
Surely not every roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

Can someone explain this to me? Is there another type of brake set up that looks like the caliper
and is much much better?

Peter,

A cable brake system just multiplies the force from the hand to increase the force on the brake pad. The brake lever (by definition) is a lever and so is the caliper or cantilever at the wheel. You can only increase the pad force for a given hand force by increasing the leverage in the system and this reduces the pad travel. Dual pivot calipers can apply more force to the pads than single pivot ones for a given hand force, but have less pad movement and do not follow an untrue rim. There is no free lunch in the design business. The above principles apply regardless of the style of the brakes. You can't get around the physical principles.

Hippy rightly points out the importance of good brake pads. Like him, I have had good results with BBB and also with Kool Stop. I am not fond of Shimano pads, especially older ones which seemed to work (and sound) like sandpaper.

John Retchford

Peter Cremasco said:

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of locking up the wheels with
minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be squeezed very hard,

Peter, caliper brakes have less weight and air drag, and look cool. So roadies love them. Its a pity
they are not so good at stopping a bike. For extreme cool, get a fixed-gear with _no_ brakes :-)

Over the last 8(ish years I have gone from campag mirage single pivots, Athena double pivots, Veloce doubles and now to Chorus Double AND single pivots.
Campag wised up to the fact you dont NEED doubles on the back as you can get more touch/less-lock-up and unnecessary weight
The single back brakes are great for me as I have a tendancy to brake late and sometimes if caught out panic and lock up the rear end. the singles makes this much harder to achieve

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to the strentgh of the rims, perhaps?

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to the strentgh of the rims,
perhaps?

Frame flex would play a more important role I think. That's why trials riders (and others) fit brake
boosters to their bikes. They are locking the brakes on and this forces the fork legs or the
seatstays apart. A booster braces the stays or fork legs and reduces the amount that they move
apart, thereby imparting more force on the pads/rim and less on frame flex.

I have one on the GTSS: <http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3895.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3887.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3894.htm>

I'm guessing most mtb's would have stronger (less flexible) seatstays and forks...

hippy

hippy said:

<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3895.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3887.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3894.htm>

Hey hippy! Call the cops! Someone's nicked your gears! Eeek!

&roo

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to the strentgh of the rims,
perhaps?

More a case of being related to the steepness of the terrain. Road riders look on Coonara Rd near
Monbulk as steep and call it 'The Wall' 9 it might be. But head of into the Olinda Forest nearby and
try oooh... say the Black Hole Track. A road bike brakeset would not stop you. It's an mildly
disconcerting experience when your brakes are full on and you are steadily gathering speed.

Cheers Peter

Quoted message said:

Could the strength of road brakes compared to mtb brakes be related to the strentgh of the rims,
perhaps?

You mean, if road bikes all go Vees or similar the lightweight rims'll wear out? Makes sense to me.

Back to hippy; my bike's well maintained etc. etc. In their best condition, the ultegras have never
ever (ever) come close to the power of my old vees. Are you sure you have had your vees set up
properly when you tried(/use them regularly) them? Surely you have noticed they stop you far more
easily and with greater ease of modulation than your ultegras. Surely. Anyway, that's my only point
(such as it is...)

I'm now scrabbling for the ripcord that will eject me from this thread before the obligitory boffin
with a PhD in 1997 vees Vs. 2003 ultegra calipers proves me wrong. Ah, there it is... Cheers

NickZX6R said:

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot calipers. Maybe it's
just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Well seeing that almost 30 years ago I could go flying over the handlebars by grabbing a handful of
single pivot brake when a car turned right in front of me, why would I want more brake than that?

Nick

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:33:21 GMT, Nick Payne <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

NickZX6R said:

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot calipers. Maybe it's
just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Well seeing that almost 30 years ago I could go flying over the handlebars by grabbing a handful of
single pivot brake when a car turned right in front of me, why would I want more brake than that?

I used to be able to do that with my Weinemann Vanqueur centre-pull front brake 40 years ago. I can
still do that with my dual pivot 2002 Chorus front brake when a Rhodesian Ridgeback mistakes me for
a lion and launches itself at me. It just that it's a bit easier :-)

--
Regards. Richard.

blah said:

Quoted message said:

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Quoted message said:

Absolutely. I have come to road from a MTB background in the last six months, and have found
calipers to be pretty stoneage as far as braking force and ease of use goes. My 2003 ultegra
brakes are nothing on my ancient '97 Deore XT Vees or even my other MTB's '97 LX linear-pulls.
Given a choice, Vees for me every time. Of course, roadies love their traditions, so for now I'll
just live in fear of that car pulling out in front of me...

Actually, I was talking about single-pivot and dual-pivot road brakes, not V brakes.

I've got Campy Daytona brakes and Mavic CXP21 rims and I 've never had a problem with stopping
power. The Daytona replaced Mirage single-pivots which were [censored].

--
Nick

Nick Payne said:

NickZX6R said:

I found quite a difference when I changed from single-pivot to dual-pivot calipers. Maybe it's
just a case of keeping them maintained and adjusted properly?

Although, even properly adjusted single-pivot calipers are [censored] compared to dual-pivots, IMHO.

Well seeing that almost 30 years ago I could go flying over the handlebars by grabbing a
handful of single pivot brake when a car turned right in front of me, why would I want more
brake than that?

Quoted message said:

Nick

IME, the single pivots require more effort to brake hard and they are not as easy to adjust as
dual-pivot.

The only reason I upgraded was because of a supercheap friend overseas deal, so I wasn't unhappy
with the single pivots. But when I fitted the Daytonas there was a big difference.

--
Nick

Oh Peter,

Don't bother about buying and using expensive brakes.

Just take them off.

There....... see. No more worries about brakes slowing you down or silly discussions about which
type is best.

There problem solved. Enjoy your free wheel riding.

By now!!

"Peter Cremasco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A question concerning brakes - particularly the two most common types: the caliper brakes
(anchored at one point on the fork head) and the linear pull (anchored at two points on the
fork leg).

I've ridden both kinds, and find that the linear pull is capable of locking up the wheels with
minimum effort. The caliper brakes need to be squeezed very hard, and don't even appear to come
close to locking up the wheel.

I've mostly seen caliper brakes on roadies (or old style MTB), and the linear pull on MTB or
hybrids. I've heard that the brakes on road bikes are much better, but be buggered if I can see
how. Surely not every roadie I've ridden has been set up wrong, as far as brakes go?

Can someone explain this to me? Is there another type of brake set up that looks like the caliper
and is much much better?

Cheers,

PeterC

---
Cheers

PeterC

[Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
[and there's nothing you can do about it at all]

"Andrew Swan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xVh_b.139

Quoted message said:

hippy said:

<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3895.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3887.htm>
<http://www.thehippy.net/Cycling/MyBikes/gtss/pages/138_3894.htm>

Hey hippy! Call the cops! Someone's nicked your gears! Eeek!

I reckon it was an inside job, ya know. I reckon the owner musta ripped off his own gears...
probably fahrinsurince reasons.. yeah, insurance reasons! He was scammin' RACV or somethin' for some
cash for his gears, yeah.

hippy ;-)