carbohydrate needs

[pam_in_sc]

I'm interested in web sites or rules of thumb for carbohydrate needs for
long rides, for someone who isn't a trained athlete but is in the
process of getting into shape.

I have diabetes so I can't do carbohydrate loading beforehand. Last
weekend I had a high carb breakfast then pumped up my tires and blew a
tube. I didn't have another (learned that lesson) and the bike shop was
closed so I just couldn't ride, and my blood glucose went too high
because I didn't work off my breakfast. I'm type 2 (no medication) and
my body seems to be pretty good still at maintaining my blood glucose
level while actually exercising--I've not had problems with going either
too high or too low while exercising.

I'm not going very fast but in pretty hilly terrain--1/2 mile or so in
first gear several times in every hour of riding. The longest rides I
have done so far have been 3 to 4 hours, 40 miles or so, and for recent
long rides I have varied from 30 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of
500 calories) to 90 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of 800 calories)
total of everything I ate right before and during the ride. That has
felt like plenty to keep my energy up.

I'm working towards a 66 mile organized ride the first weekend in
October. Do I just scale up what I am doing 50%, or am I going to need
to replace more energy to go a longer distance?

Pam

 

[Roger Zoul]

pam_in_sc wrote:
|| I'm interested in web sites or rules of thumb for carbohydrate needs
|| for long rides, for someone who isn't a trained athlete but is in the
|| process of getting into shape.

I'm in that boat, being as I'm a type 2 as well.

||
|| I have diabetes so I can't do carbohydrate loading beforehand. Last
|| weekend I had a high carb breakfast then pumped up my tires and blew
|| a tube. I didn't have another (learned that lesson) and the bike
|| shop was closed so I just couldn't ride, and my blood glucose went
|| too high because I didn't work off my breakfast. I'm type 2 (no
|| medication) and my body seems to be pretty good still at maintaining
|| my blood glucose level while actually exercising--I've not had
|| problems with going either too high or too low while exercising.

Well, a little planning can prevent this....if you make sure you can ride
(weather, equipement, etc) then you can do a carb load a little before
starting your ride. And if you can't ride, walk or go to the gym.

||
|| I'm not going very fast but in pretty hilly terrain--1/2 mile or so
|| in first gear several times in every hour of riding. The longest
|| rides I have done so far have been 3 to 4 hours, 40 miles or so, and
|| for recent long rides I have varied from 30 grams of carbohydrate
|| (and a total of 500 calories) to 90 grams of carbohydrate (and a
|| total of 800 calories) total of everything I ate right before and
|| during the ride. That has felt like plenty to keep my energy up.
||
|| I'm working towards a 66 mile organized ride the first weekend in
|| October. Do I just scale up what I am doing 50%, or am I going to
|| need to replace more energy to go a longer distance?

Well, if what you're doing now works (you're checking BG, right?), then why
not just scale up? ARe you taking any protein along with your carbs? Also,
what about after ride nutrition?

 

[Terry Morse]

pam_in_sc wrote:

> I'm interested in web sites or rules of thumb for carbohydrate needs for
> long rides, for someone who isn't a trained athlete but is in the
> process of getting into shape.

Here's a decent overview of carbohydrate fueling during exercise:

http://www.carbboom.com/carbohydratesenergygels.htm

> I'm working towards a 66 mile organized ride the first weekend in
> October. Do I just scale up what I am doing 50%, or am I going to need
> to replace more energy to go a longer distance?

Well, fueling certainly becomes more important as the length of the
ride increases. The recommended range is 30-60 grams of carbs per
hour, but the amount depends heavily on the level of exertion. I can
go for several hours without any food, but only if it's an easy
pace. At a race pace, I can survive on one bottle of sports drink
and one or two gels.

Since this 66-miler is a first for you, be sure to carry an
emergency supply of carbs. If you bonk between rest stations, a
short blast of fuel will help you make it to the next rest stop.
Bonking half way between stops is not pleasant. It's always a good
idea to carry some emergency food in your saddle bag.

Good luck on your ride.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

 

[Roger Zoul]

Terry Morse wrote:

[...]

|| Since this 66-miler is a first for you, be sure to carry an
|| emergency supply of carbs. If you bonk between rest stations, a
|| short blast of fuel will help you make it to the next rest stop.
|| Bonking half way between stops is not pleasant. It's always a good
|| idea to carry some emergency food in your saddle bag.
||

I carry glucose tablets that you can in the diabetic section at Wal-mart.
4g of carbs per tablet - straight glucose, too.

 

[pam_in_sc]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Well, a little planning can prevent this....if you make sure you can ride
> (weather, equipement, etc) then you can do a carb load a little before
> starting your ride. And if you can't ride, walk or go to the gym.

I should have walked off my high carb breakfast, but was too upset at my
plans for a long ride being ruined. I'm slowly learning to be flexible.

> Well, if what you're doing now works (you're checking BG, right?), then why
> not just scale up? ARe you taking any protein along with your carbs? Also,
> what about after ride nutrition?

I'm checking bg after riding, but its mostly too hot to carry my meter.
I did hike up Table Rock (7 miles, 2,000 ft. vertical rise, 5 hours)
and check frequently (carried my meter in a Frio), and never went below
90 or over 110. My concern about scaling up was whether in 3 or 4 hours
I'm using up the easily accessible stores in my liver and therefore if
keep going longer I will need to get more of my energy from what I eat.

I usually have protein and fat with my carbs because that is how I am
used to eating, though one treat when riding is orange juice. I've got
some tasty nut/coconut health food style energy bars. I'm trying to
learn the habit of some carbs (maybe 6 oz of juice) after a long ride.
I don't find I can eat differently for dinner after a long ride--I
thought I would be able to eat more carbs because my body was
replenishing stores but I find no reliable difference, given the same
dinner, in how high my bg goes. (I'm doing very tight control--my goal
is under 140 at 1 hour, under 120 at 2 hours after eating. I eat about
80-100 grams of carbohydrate a day.)

Pam

 

[Roger Zoul]

pam_in_sc wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| Well, a little planning can prevent this....if you make sure you
||| can ride (weather, equipement, etc) then you can do a carb load a
||| little before starting your ride. And if you can't ride, walk or go
||| to the gym.
||
|| I should have walked off my high carb breakfast, but was too upset
|| at my plans for a long ride being ruined. I'm slowly learning to be
|| flexible.

I understand as I have been exactly in that position, though for me it
usually starts the day before because I don't eat breakfast before a ride as
I ride in the early AM.

||
||| Well, if what you're doing now works (you're checking BG, right?),
||| then why not just scale up? ARe you taking any protein along with
||| your carbs? Also, what about after ride nutrition?
||
|| I'm checking bg after riding, but its mostly too hot to carry my
|| meter. I did hike up Table Rock (7 miles, 2,000 ft. vertical
|| rise, 5 hours)
|| and check frequently (carried my meter in a Frio), and never went
|| below 90 or over 110. My concern about scaling up was whether in 3
|| or 4 hours
|| I'm using up the easily accessible stores in my liver and therefore
|| if
|| keep going longer I will need to get more of my energy from what I
|| eat.

I don't know about you -- and everyone is different, so my experience may be
vastly different than yours. But if I don't get enough carbs before/after
getting up around 60 miles, I'll have serious hypoglycemia after my ride.
And the thing about hypo that you have to remember is that it is not just a
matter of having low BG levels -- it is more about the rate in which yor BG
levels change. If it drops too fast, even though the levels may not get
really low, all of the hypo symptoms will appear. Again, this may not be a
problem for you. In fact, I'm not even sure it has much to do with my being
diabetic, it probably has more to do with the fact that i weigh 240 lbs and
ride hard (my HR really gets up to well over 90% max going up the hills
around here) for my size.

||
|| I usually have protein and fat with my carbs because that is how I am
|| used to eating, though one treat when riding is orange juice. I've
|| got

Well, I try my best to restrict fat when I'm eating carbs (it doesn't always
work out that way)....mainly for the reason that if you manage to overeat,
then your body will get the calories from the carbs (they digest quickest)
and then store up the fat - as fat. Your body can generally keep a store of
extra carbs around longer for energy and hence won't quickly turn carbs into
fat. But if you drive your BG up with carbs, and there is fat around, it
gets pushed into the cells by insulin. And if you eat more than your body
needs, that fat stays around and increases the size of your fat cells -- you
basicaly lay down fat.

|| some tasty nut/coconut health food style energy bars. I'm trying to
|| learn the habit of some carbs (maybe 6 oz of juice) after a long
|| ride.
|| I don't find I can eat differently for dinner after a long ride--I
|| thought I would be able to eat more carbs because my body was
|| replenishing stores but I find no reliable difference, given the same
|| dinner, in how high my bg goes. (I'm doing very tight control--my
|| goal
|| is under 140 at 1 hour, under 120 at 2 hours after eating. I eat
|| about 80-100 grams of carbohydrate a day.)

It might be that 40 miles is just not enough for you because you don't weigh
a whole lot. For me, once I get around 60 miles then I've burned a lot of
calories and I can eat more. Even I usually don't do much differently in
terms of eating at 40 miles. In fact, I don't typically bother to carb up
at all if I'm not planning on doing more than 40 miles. I'll just drink
gatoraid while I ride. I take some glucose tablets with me just in case I
manage to hit a wall or something, because sometimes I do get aggressive and
attack hills - something about my personality.

One useful book is Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet". It gives the
theory behind carb ups and the details about mixing the various
macronutrients during those times. The book does have a heavy slant toward
weightlifting, however.

 

[pam_in_sc]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> It might be that 40 miles is just not enough for you because you don't weigh
> a whole lot. For me, once I get around 60 miles then I've burned a lot of
> calories and I can eat more. Even I usually don't do much differently in
> terms of eating at 40 miles. In fact, I don't typically bother to carb up
> at all if I'm not planning on doing more than 40 miles. I'll just drink
> gatoraid while I ride. I take some glucose tablets with me just in case I
> manage to hit a wall or something, because sometimes I do get aggressive and
> attack hills - something about my personality.

I weigh about 175, at 5 ft. 6 in., but I'm not very aggressive about
hills and keeping my heart rate high. I'm slowly and steadily losing
weight--keeping my bg in control seems to have that as a side effect
without having to make much effort.

Your experience with going low is very useful for me to watch out for.

Thanks, Pam

 

[Roger Zoul]

pam_in_sc wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: It might be that 40 miles is just not enough for you because you
::: don't weigh a whole lot. For me, once I get around 60 miles then
::: I've burned a lot of calories and I can eat more. Even I usually
::: don't do much differently in terms of eating at 40 miles. In fact,
::: I don't typically bother to carb up at all if I'm not planning on
::: doing more than 40 miles. I'll just drink gatoraid while I ride.
::: I take some glucose tablets with me just in case I manage to hit a
::: wall or something, because sometimes I do get aggressive and attack
::: hills - something about my personality.
::
:: I weigh about 175, at 5 ft. 6 in., but I'm not very aggressive about
:: hills and keeping my heart rate high. I'm slowly and steadily losing
:: weight--keeping my bg in control seems to have that as a side effect
:: without having to make much effort.
::

That's great, Pam. Keep at it. I'm looking forward to the NAMI ride next
year, so hopefully you'll come and we can meet! Oh, and I'll probably do
the metric century in the Ride for Raptors on October 2.

 

[Bob in CT]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:52:50 -0400, Roger Zoul <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Terry Morse wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> || Since this 66-miler is a first for you, be sure to carry an
> || emergency supply of carbs. If you bonk between rest stations, a
> || short blast of fuel will help you make it to the next rest stop.
> || Bonking half way between stops is not pleasant. It's always a good
> || idea to carry some emergency food in your saddle bag.
> ||
>
> I carry glucose tablets that you can in the diabetic section at Wal-mart.
> 4g of carbs per tablet - straight glucose, too.
>
>
>
>

Another source is corn sugar at a local beer brewing place. Corn sugar is
dextrose, which is one type of glucose. It's cheap.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

 

[Bob in CT]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:43:03 -0400, pam_in_sc <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I'm interested in web sites or rules of thumb for carbohydrate needs for
> long rides, for someone who isn't a trained athlete but is in the
> process of getting into shape.
>
> I have diabetes so I can't do carbohydrate loading beforehand. Last
> weekend I had a high carb breakfast then pumped up my tires and blew a
> tube. I didn't have another (learned that lesson) and the bike shop was
> closed so I just couldn't ride, and my blood glucose went too high
> because I didn't work off my breakfast. I'm type 2 (no medication) and
> my body seems to be pretty good still at maintaining my blood glucose
> level while actually exercising--I've not had problems with going either
> too high or too low while exercising.

Although I'm not diabetic, I do take in some carbs before my rides, and I
definitely have to get on the bike to work off the carbs.

> I'm not going very fast but in pretty hilly terrain--1/2 mile or so in
> first gear several times in every hour of riding. The longest rides I
> have done so far have been 3 to 4 hours, 40 miles or so, and for recent
> long rides I have varied from 30 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of
> 500 calories) to 90 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of 800 calories)
> total of everything I ate right before and during the ride. That has
> felt like plenty to keep my energy up.
>
> I'm working towards a 66 mile organized ride the first weekend in
> October. Do I just scale up what I am doing 50%, or am I going to need
> to replace more energy to go a longer distance?
>
> Pam
>
>
>

For short rides (under about 2.5 hours), I take in 10-20 grams of carbs
and about 20 grams of protein prior to the ride, but nothing during the
ride, then the same immediately after the ride. For rides above 2.5 hours
(say, 3 hours), I take a few carbs with me. I use a bar with 20 grams of
carbs and I take another hit of 10-20 grams carbs, 20 g protein. I'll
also take corn sugar (dextrose) with me and average about 10-20 grams per
hour during the ride. This weekend, my ride will be 85 miles (in
preparation for 100 miles the next weekend). I need the bar (which also
has protein) because it settles my stomach.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

 

[Roger Zoul]

Bob in CT wrote:
:: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:52:50 -0400, Roger Zoul
:: <[email protected]> wrote:
::
::: Terry Morse wrote:
:::
::: [...]
:::
::::: Since this 66-miler is a first for you, be sure to carry an
::::: emergency supply of carbs. If you bonk between rest stations, a
::::: short blast of fuel will help you make it to the next rest stop.
::::: Bonking half way between stops is not pleasant. It's always a good
::::: idea to carry some emergency food in your saddle bag.
:::::
:::
::: I carry glucose tablets that you can in the diabetic section at
::: Wal-mart. 4g of carbs per tablet - straight glucose, too.
:::
:::
:::
:::
::
:: Another source is corn sugar at a local beer brewing place. Corn
:: sugar is dextrose, which is one type of glucose. It's cheap.

Yeah, I have some of this...I can use it mixing up drinks. I like the
tablets because they are easy to hold in the hand.

 

[Bob in CT]

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:07:38 -0400, Roger Zoul <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Bob in CT wrote:
> :: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:52:50 -0400, Roger Zoul
> :: <[email protected]> wrote:
> ::
> ::: Terry Morse wrote:
> :::
> ::: [...]
> :::
> ::::: Since this 66-miler is a first for you, be sure to carry an
> ::::: emergency supply of carbs. If you bonk between rest stations, a
> ::::: short blast of fuel will help you make it to the next rest stop.
> ::::: Bonking half way between stops is not pleasant. It's always a good
> ::::: idea to carry some emergency food in your saddle bag.
> :::::
> :::
> ::: I carry glucose tablets that you can in the diabetic section at
> ::: Wal-mart. 4g of carbs per tablet - straight glucose, too.
> :::
> :::
> :::
> :::
> ::
> :: Another source is corn sugar at a local beer brewing place. Corn
> :: sugar is dextrose, which is one type of glucose. It's cheap.
>
> Yeah, I have some of this...I can use it mixing up drinks. I like the
> tablets because they are easy to hold in the hand.
>
>

And easier to pop in the mouth, too. I have to mix mine with water. It's
not as sweet as you'd think, so I always measure.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

 

[Roger Zoul]

Bob in CT wrote:
:: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:07:38 -0400, Roger Zoul
:: <[email protected]> wrote:
::
::: Bob in CT wrote:
::::: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:52:50 -0400, Roger Zoul
::::: <[email protected]> wrote:
:::::
:::::: Terry Morse wrote:
::::::
:::::: [...]
::::::
:::::::: Since this 66-miler is a first for you, be sure to carry an
:::::::: emergency supply of carbs. If you bonk between rest stations, a
:::::::: short blast of fuel will help you make it to the next rest
:::::::: stop. Bonking half way between stops is not pleasant. It's
:::::::: always a good idea to carry some emergency food in your saddle
:::::::: bag.
::::::::
::::::
:::::: I carry glucose tablets that you can in the diabetic section at
:::::: Wal-mart. 4g of carbs per tablet - straight glucose, too.
::::::
::::::
::::::
::::::
:::::
::::: Another source is corn sugar at a local beer brewing place. Corn
::::: sugar is dextrose, which is one type of glucose. It's cheap.
:::
::: Yeah, I have some of this...I can use it mixing up drinks. I like
::: the tablets because they are easy to hold in the hand.
:::
:::
::
:: And easier to pop in the mouth, too. I have to mix mine with water.
:: It's not as sweet as you'd think, so I always measure.

That's true about the sweetness....I've tried it in my AM coffee before
ridings...and I feel as if I have to keep adding to get it nearly as sweet
as the splenda.

 

[pam_in_sc]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> That's great, Pam. Keep at it. I'm looking forward to the NAMI ride next
> year, so hopefully you'll come and we can meet! Oh, and I'll probably do
> the metric century in the Ride for Raptors on October 2.

I'm doing the metric century at Ride for the Raptors, but no doubt
slower than you. I've got a long grey braid and an Orbea bike. My kids
and husband want to do a shorter ride but aren't up for 25 miles--the
plan is for them to do 15 miles to the first rest stop. I assumed my
husband would be able to get a ride back to his car from there, but a
friend is dubious of that plan.

Pam

 

[Roger Zoul]

pam_in_sc wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||
||| That's great, Pam. Keep at it. I'm looking forward to the NAMI
||| ride next year, so hopefully you'll come and we can meet! Oh, and
||| I'll probably do the metric century in the Ride for Raptors on
||| October 2.
||
|| I'm doing the metric century at Ride for the Raptors, but no doubt
|| slower than you. I've got a long grey braid and an Orbea bike. My
|| kids and husband want to do a shorter ride but aren't up for 25
|| miles--the
|| plan is for them to do 15 miles to the first rest stop. I assumed my
|| husband would be able to get a ride back to his car from there, but a
|| friend is dubious of that plan.

Great! I'm not that fast of a rider, though. Once you factor in hills and
my weight, I'll end up around 13.5 mph or so. But I'll look for you to say
hi. I'll be the big black guy with a mostly white helmet, sungrasses, a
Specialized Sequoia bike, and probably a green shirt with high-vis green
socks on! I'm not easy to miss

 

[pam_in_sc]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> Great! I'm not that fast of a rider, though. Once you factor in hills and
> my weight, I'll end up around 13.5 mph or so. But I'll look for you to say
> hi. I'll be the big black guy with a mostly white helmet, sungrasses, a
> Specialized Sequoia bike, and probably a green shirt with high-vis green
> socks on! I'm not easy to miss

Boy am I guilty of stereotyping. I imagined you as an irascible old
white guy (though I'm 49 so I have no right to cast stones about age).

Pam

 

[Roger Zoul]

pam_in_sc wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: Great! I'm not that fast of a rider, though. Once you factor in
::: hills and my weight, I'll end up around 13.5 mph or so. But I'll
::: look for you to say hi. I'll be the big black guy with a mostly
::: white helmet, sungrasses, a Specialized Sequoia bike, and probably
::: a green shirt with high-vis green socks on! I'm not easy to miss
::
:: Boy am I guilty of stereotyping. I imagined you as an irascible old
:: white guy (though I'm 49 so I have no right to cast stones about
:: age).

haha....well, you got the old part right, as I'm 46 with salt&pepper hair!
But you'll find me good natured.

 

[Peter Cole]

"pam_in_sc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm interested in web sites or rules of thumb for carbohydrate needs for
> long rides, for someone who isn't a trained athlete but is in the
> process of getting into shape.
>
> I have diabetes so I can't do carbohydrate loading beforehand.
>
> I'm not going very fast but in pretty hilly terrain--1/2 mile or so in
> first gear several times in every hour of riding. The longest rides I
> have done so far have been 3 to 4 hours, 40 miles or so, and for recent
> long rides I have varied from 30 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of
> 500 calories) to 90 grams of carbohydrate (and a total of 800 calories)
> total of everything I ate right before and during the ride. That has
> felt like plenty to keep my energy up.
>
> I'm working towards a 66 mile organized ride the first weekend in
> October. Do I just scale up what I am doing 50%, or am I going to need
> to replace more energy to go a longer distance?

The typical number used for glycogen reserves (liver & all tissue) is 2,000
cal. For most people, this translates into >60 mi before bonking. Slow riding
may take more hours, but the caloric rate is lower, especially since slow
riders burn a higher % of fat. If you go slow enough, you don't have to eat at
all. I've done double centuries without eating (not that I'd recommend it). I
wouldn't bother with "carbo loading" before a ride. It's certainly not
necessary, and it would seem particularly unwise for a diabetic.

 

[pam_in_sc]

Peter Cole wrote:

> The typical number used for glycogen reserves (liver & all tissue) is 2,000
> cal. For most people, this translates into >60 mi before bonking. Slow riding
> may take more hours, but the caloric rate is lower, especially since slow
> riders burn a higher % of fat. If you go slow enough, you don't have to eat at
> all. I've done double centuries without eating (not that I'd recommend it). I
> wouldn't bother with "carbo loading" before a ride. It's certainly not
> necessary, and it would seem particularly unwise for a diabetic.

I get weak feeling if I don't eat for five or six hours, even if I'm not
doing anything athletic. It feels like the classic symptoms of low
blood sugar but when I test I'm not actually low. That makes me
cautious even if the issue isn't actually bonking.

I did 50 miles yesterday and got home with my blood sugar a little on
the high side. What is hard to figure out is whether I ate too much
(about 850 calories--I treated myself to a breakfast I couldn't normally
eat) or ate too little and my liver overcompensated. Some diabetics
have problems with high blood sugar when they exercise because their
liver dumps too much glucose.

Pam

 

[pam_in_sc]

Kevan Smith wrote:

> If you are getting into shape, I presume that also means losing a little
> weight. Therefore, don't worry about your calorie deficit. Eat just enough to
> avoid bonking. OTOH, if you are happy with your weight, then try eating about
> 150 to 300 calories per hour of riding; the faster you ride, the more you eat.
> That's enough to replenish the energy supplies, but not so much that you need
> to focus on digestion rather than riding. It's about one or two gel packets or
> a few Fig Newtons.

I'm losing weight still, but not in any hurry. Thanks for the rule of
thumb to work from. I wish I understood the subtleties of feeling
hungry, low blood sugar, and bonking, but I suspect they are hopelessly
complicated, particularly as I ride mostly in the more fat-burning heart
rate range, not at high intensity. I don't think I'm likely to truly
bonk, but I easily get into a low state when I haven't eaten for a
while. Diabetes seems to involve the body handling energy reserves less
smoothly.

Pam