Carbon wheels

Ok, thanks Sitz, yea they come with the Dura A hub. In that case I'll move on in my search. I got it narrowed down to a few choices at least, so I'm sure I'll have a set by this month.

Don't want to wait too long, as I'm sure prices will go up a bit and deals will get smaller as the season gets closer.

Hmmm ... built with Shimano DA hubs - custom build? Interesting. I don't think the pawl interface is the same on DA, so swapping for a "standard" shimano/sram body isn't an option.

You could always use a DA cassette, but would be expensive and maybe not as long wearing since some of the cogs are Ti. I have no experience with DA hubs, so don't exclude based on my ramblings. Maybe Peter V will respond.

Agreed on waiting ... others are playing the same game and there's a finite amount of past season inventory. Musical chairs. 🙂

Going to Easton's website, found the following choices of cassette freehubs for the R4 hub: eastoncycling.com2011 Easton Cassette Body Chart.pdfOpen ↗

Big fan of Velomax/Easton wheels due to the excellent durability I'm getting from their low-end Circuit wheels. The rims aren't fancy, but the even tension of the twin-threaded spokes have resulted in wheels that I've never had to true in 28K miles. The rear has a bit more lateral runout than when new, but I don't want to mess with the factory truing. Based on my experience, the EA-90SL would be my first choice when it comes to replacing the old Circuits.

Thanks dhk and sitz. I definitely like Eastons alot, and the Reynolds Solitudes are still in my mind. Also, Token looks like a nice wheelset, although don't know them as well as the others. I think I'm steering away from the full carbons, just cause of durability mostly I guess, and not needing 100% FULL carbon. If I could get a nice deal on some carbon w/ alloy it would be nice, but not likely small $$.
Anyways, thanks for your input on everything and I'll keep updating on my quest for wheels.

-Greg

Ok, so I found an Easton EA90 TT wheelset 2010, for $479, originally $850. Is there anything different that would NOT be good for regular training/racing ? Is it the spoke count ?

Here's the link:
pricepoint.comEaston EA90 TT Wheelset 2010 offerOpen ↗

Let me know what you folks think about it.

EDIT: Another set I just found, (and I promise it will be my lastI ask you about), is Easton EA50 Aero. At 1786 grams, it's not very light.

Thanks,
-Greg

Gman -
I"ll have to respond later when I have more time, but overall I think you would like the EA wheels, but it depends on what you really want to accomplish with a wheel change. I was checking on bearing upgrades for the R4 hubs and stumbled on this thread. I think it answers your original question about "DA only" hubs and also give some background on upgrading R4. The source is Easton, so is reliable.

forums.roadbikereview.comshowthread.phpOpen ↗

For more info on the Sapim spokes: I suspect the Sapim Aero is the CX - not quite as "strong" as the cx-ray, but with an aluminum rim the spoke count may not be as critical as with carbon.

sapim.besapim.beOpen ↗

Haha...Rush...Signals...nice :-)

Thanks again Sitzmark. My general use is everyday training rides with some weekends at Wells Ave crits, along with some occasional TT's here and there, but mostly just everyday solo/group rides.

I really do like the new 2011 EA50 Aeros for $400, although more heavier @ 1786g. The EA50 SL's are nice as well, still 1710g, but do I really need to be below 1700g with my kind of riding ? I guess I'm a little concerned with the narrow 19mm width, and the complaints I read about getting the tires on Eastons. Then theres the EA90 SL for $547, at 1530g.

Now, I've been reading into all the reviews, and my question is, how much should I read into them ? I find that for most of these wheels, Eastons, Reynolds, others, there are plenty of negative ones that make me turn away.

Damn this process sucks !! The Reynolds Attacks still hit me as a huge deal, going for $699 while regular at $1200-$1400, but I still need convincing that full carbons can survive frequent hits from potholes. I'm very alert and responsive on the road, avoiding most of everything, but there are still plenty of unavoidables that can't be healthy for a full CB wheel.

Sorry for this irritation.

-Greg

Greg-
Long day yesterday ... but fun. Bell to bell on the slopes - cold but bluebird skies and unlimited visibility for as far as the eye could see. Very few people.

Couple of points that I wanted to make about the EA90SL. The link I posted suggests that Easton was willing to provide replacement hub bodies for the too tightly machined hub bodies that only accepted DA cassettes. If they followed through with that offer (or are willing to), then maybe that puts the SLs back on the table for you? With the SLs you should get Eastons best bearing for the R4 hubset. I was misinterpreting your post to mean the wheelset was custom built with Shimano DA hubs.

The spoke count of the EA90 TT is kind of low for a bombproof wheelset. Sapim are very good spokes - the CX-rays having a higher tested duty cycle than the standard CX spokes. I suspect since the spokes aren't identified as CX-rays, but "aero" that they are not the rays. Something worth considering with a 16/20 count for all around use. Not saying it would be a problem ... just rambling thoughts. For reference, I'm rolling with 18/24 cx-rays on carbon/alu clinchers without any problems so far, but I do take some precautions with the carbon wheels as I mentioned before. The most challenging environment is group riding where it can sometimes be difficult to see what gotchas lurk ahead.

Since part of your goal is a race wheelset, reducing rolling resistance and aerodynamics are important. For me it was ride quality, rolling resistance, and then aero. The 32mm section depth isn't as aero as what some of your competitors are probably running - especially TT. That said, there are now theories being published that deep section wheels really aren't worth much of an aero advantage. So, who are you going to believe? 🙂 From my own seat-of-the-pants assessment, the 404s seemed to be more aero than the 303s when I demoed them. Mental or real, my demo rides weren't controlled enough to be anything more than gut feel.

So all in all, the EA90s should be an improvement over what you have now. But for race purposes you may want to think about what performance spec(s) is most important to limit any competitive advantage that you're seeing in key competitor's equipment. Again, it might be worth demoing and experiencing different section depths and other characteristics if you can, just to see what feels best to you.

As far as negative reviews, my experience in product management and marketing has always been that people who have a negative experience are far more inclined to write about it than those who don't. As long as there are just a few negatives mixed in with generally good reviews, it isn't likely that there is a systemic problem ... probably more application specific.

Tough decisions, I know. Good luck!

Mark

Thanks for your help on this Mark, it's huge. Man, I gotta get my board out already. Usually go up to Bradford or Wachusett during weekdays, since I get some free tickets cause my company owns the mtn.

I see your point on the neg reviews and makes perfect sense. Now you mentioned the spoke count which is definitely important, especially on the NE roads. What do you think about teh weight issue. Right now my stock CXP22's are around 2100g I believe. The 2011 AE50 Aeros I like are 1786g, have 20/24 count bladed spokes w/ brass nipples, and are 30mm deep alloy. For my purpose, would going from 2011g to below 1600g make a big difference than going to 1786g, from 2100g ?

Here are the AE50 Aeros:
competitivecyclist.com2011 easton ea50 aero clincher wheelset 8810.2561.0.htmlOpen ↗

Once again thanks for your big help,
-Greg

Ok, so I'm down to just 3 sets that I really really like, and one will be bought this week.

1. 2011 Easton EA50 Aero- 1786g, 20/24 sapim bladed spokes, $400, sharp looking. (not rated yet)

2. 2010 Easton EA50 SL- 1710g, 20/24 sapim spokes, $219. (3.33 of 5)

3. 2010 Reynolds Solitude- 1550g, 20/24 DT comp and DT rev spokes, $424. (3.02 of 5)

I figured that for me and for now I definitely don't need to go over $450.
I would still like to know how much difference is there in weight for my type of riding, to go from 2100g to below 1600g, vs. 2100g to 1700g-1800g.

Thanks,
-Greg

Greg, don't the EA50's have regular j-bend spokes? Just my opinion, but I'd go for the EA70s or EA90s, since I'm a fan of the straight-pull, twin-threaded spoke design. As I said, the Circuits (now EA70s) have held up really well for me for 28K miles with no "tuning" required.

To answer your question about wheel weight, it matters a little but not a lot. Rotating wheel weight counts about 2X normal weight (ie, body and frame) when you're accelerating; at steady speeds on flat or climbs, it's just like other weight. So if you can save 500 grams, or a pound on the wheels, it's like saving from 1-2 lbs on your bodyweight, or about like leaving a 700 gram water bottle off the bike.

For crits, of course lighter is always better, whether we're talking bodyweight or equipment, even if it's just saving you 1% of power/work effort over repeated short climbs or sprints. The question is, how much is it worth to you to gain that final 1%, and are you willing to sacrifice durability to get it or pay a lot more to get it? Personally, I'd rather ride stronger wheels in a crit, ones that I have to worry about too much in event of the crash...we seemed to have them pretty often when I was doing the weekly training crits back in the 90s.

Not trying to come off as an old grouch here. Lighter stuff is always fun, and if you're in the final sprints on those crits, feet and inches gained might make a difference in your placement.

Good stuff dhk, thanks.

Yea I think at this point of my cycling life, that 1% is non-existant. Sure I'd be mad if it came down to the wire at the finish and I got beat by 1/2 a wheel, but as I just started getting my feet wet with crits last year, I think I'd take that 1/2 wheel defeat as happiness that I came so close to winning.

I've got tons of hard work to do before I end up counting seconds, and having a wheelset that's lighter but more durable is important. Compared to my 2,100 gram CXP22's, even if weighing ~1700g, that's almost 1 pound off already even on the regular wheels so it's progress no matter what.

To confirm, the EA50 spokes are J-bend. Even the Aero's bladed ones are J-bend.

EDIT: If I could know for sure that a 16/20 spoke count would be fine on these roads, for my 183 lbs, I would grab the EA90 TT set for $479, 44% off from $850.

Hi gman0482, I would also have a look at this Wheelset which is AU$399, is at least as good as the EA90's, Aero, and weight Front 618 gms/Rear 864 gms ... http://www.pro-liteoz.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=19 [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I just want to say thanks again for all of your help.

I think I am finally sold on a wheelset. The Williams System 30. Great price, a 30mm depth I was looking for, 1580g, 20/24 Pillar PSR bladed spokes, and $479. Made in US, and a 4.61 of 5 in reviews.

williamscycling.comsys30.htmlOpen ↗

OR- for extra $10, I can get the same System30's but with 24/28 spoke count, and 1639g. But I weigh 183 lbs, so not sure if I need it ?

Also considering going all out and getting the set with the PT Pro+, for $1,499, since I was planning on buying a power meter but didnt want a PT because of wanting a wheelset upgrade. Kill 2 birds with one stone perhaps.

Let me know what you folks think.

-Greg

Greg -
Starting back at your #1 post, I think weight and "race" are expressed as your primary objective throughout your posts. Your current wheels are functional, so you have a back up set for training when you think conditions will be exceptionally rough.

Given that scenario, the WS-30s fit - low friction hubsets, 1580g +/-, and the durability of a metal matrix rim. Hard to say about spoke count ... the Reynold TTs might be fine, but you don't get the advantage of the "better" bearings without an upgrade. Didn't see any specs on the Williams ceramics (or the Reynolds for that matter) bearings to compare roll out. Ceramic alone doesn't guarantee lower rolling resistance or higher precision, but generally that's the idea. Personally I'd go with the 20/24 spoke count on the WS30s and use your current wheelset if you think a ride is going to cover REALLY bad road surfaces where you don't want your entire focus to be on avoiding pot holes, nasty RR track crossings, etc.

The Easton EA50s had a lot (not just a few) of negative reviews for tire mounting. Sounds like a genuine issue there. Tight is good to prevent rolling in corners, etc., but if you can't easily repair flats out on a ride ... not so good. Could be as the tire seats as stretches a bit that remounting would be easier, but hard to tell from the reviews what the level of experience of the users was. One said they took tire and wheel to a LBS and still had problems so that could mean tire mounting issues are something you would have to contend with.

Looks like a great choice.

I'm with Sitzmark on going with the 24/28 spoke wheel rather than the lower count. While you might "get away" with the lower count wheel, more spokes should give you more durability and longer life from the wheel. Also, at your weight, lateral stiffness can be an issue. You may find that the 20/24 wheels are too flexy, allowing the rear wheel to rub the brake pads in sprints. Getting the strength and stiffness would be more important to me than the last bit of gram savings.

I wouldn't worry about the hub bearings at all. Bearing losses in properly-adjusted hubs are negligible to begin with, the quality of the cartridge bearing really isn't important as long as it's clean, greased and not running preload. Actually, a good Shimano or Campy hub with axle seals is going to have more drag than any of these "boutique" hubs, but even that seal drag is nothing to worry about; way less than a watt.

Thanks guys, your input helps me big. I'll still sift through all the options out there, and keep updating the progress.

Thanks,
-Greg