cell salt research study - volunteers please

"tb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:6xxRb.131496$nt4.578417@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Hi,
study as part of my BA graduation requirement at Kepler College. I am
looking for another 125 volunteers for the study and was curious whether

you

Quoted message said:

would be interested in posting a notice about the study on your list. As

I

Quoted message said:

am part of the first graduating class, the school cannot fund this

project,

Quoted message said:

and while they are attempting to find a sponsor to assist me in the costs,
as of this time, this study is self-funded.

The desire of the pilot study is to determine whether a meaningful and
statistically significant relationship can be found between cell salts and
the natal Sun sign as historical astrological theory suggests. As an
initial pilot study, a narrow scope will be used. The research question
will attempt to answer whether an [undisclosed] Sun sign has a greater
response to its associated cell salt than other Sun signs.

I will be measuring differences in health and vitality using the SF-36v2
health survey, a licensed and respected survey issued by QualityMetric,

who

Quoted message said:

have issued me a royalty free unfunded university research license.

As I mentioned above, I need another 125 participants for the pilot study

by

Quoted message said:

February 15th, 2004. Volunteers need to be: (1) between 18 - 74 years

old,

Quoted message said:

(2) willing to answer 48 questions about the state of their health pre-

and

Quoted message said:

post-treatment, and (3) willing to take cell salt tablets twice a day for
one month beginning March 1, 2004, (4) not currently taking cell salts,

(5)

Quoted message said:

reside in North America, and (6) need to know their day, year, time, and
place of birth.

Don't do it, Tishelle, if you are real, and this is not actually some more
subtle psychological survey.. As there is apparently no intention to have
a control group for this "pilot" study, the results of the trial can be
predicted without actually ever doing it. It will prove nothing, and if
your school does not fail you for performing such a poorly designed medical
study, it should.

Volunteers will be biased towards those who have minor or unresolved health
problems, and those who think this combination of nonsenses have merit, and
who hope to feel better for it. It is predictable in such a short term
study that somewhere between sixty and ninety per cent will report feeling
better overall, and one hundred per cent will report feeling better in at
least some of the numerous parameters looked at in the survey.

Your trial is designed in such a way that it cannot fail to get positive
results, and I find it a little hard to believe that the cell salt people
themselves are not already funding it.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

All volunteer information will be under the strictest confidentiality.

All

Quoted message said:

participants will receive a copy of the study conclusions.

If you are willing to post a notice to your list, I would greately
appreciate it. Please let me know your decision so I may provide credit

in

Quoted message said:

my final report as to those who supported the study. If you require a
formal notice to be written, please let me know and I would be happy to
email you one.

Interested parties may contact me at [email hidden] or
253-925-1524 for further information or to sign up as participants.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Tishelle Betterman

"tb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:6xxRb.131496$nt4.578417@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Hi,
study as part of my BA graduation requirement at Kepler College.

[...]

Kepler College is a college of "astrological arts and sciences"
Now you pretend to do medical studies? shame on you.

tb said:

Hi,
study as part of my BA graduation requirement at Kepler College. I am
looking for another 125 volunteers for the study and was curious whether you
would be interested in posting a notice about the study on your list. As I
am part of the first graduating class, the school cannot fund this project,
and while they are attempting to find a sponsor to assist me in the costs,
as of this time, this study is self-funded.

The desire of the pilot study is to determine whether a meaningful and
statistically significant relationship can be found between cell salts and
the natal Sun sign as historical astrological theory suggests. As an
initial pilot study, a narrow scope will be used. The research question
will attempt to answer whether an [undisclosed] Sun sign has a greater
response to its associated cell salt than other Sun signs.

I will be measuring differences in health and vitality using the SF-36v2
health survey, a licensed and respected survey issued by QualityMetric, who
have issued me a royalty free unfunded university research license.

As I mentioned above, I need another 125 participants for the pilot study by
February 15th, 2004. Volunteers need to be: (1) between 18 - 74 years old,
(2) willing to answer 48 questions about the state of their health pre- and
post-treatment, and (3) willing to take cell salt tablets twice a day for
one month beginning March 1, 2004, (4) not currently taking cell salts, (5)
reside in North America, and (6) need to know their day, year, time, and
place of birth.

All volunteer information will be under the strictest confidentiality. All
participants will receive a copy of the study conclusions.

If you are willing to post a notice to your list, I would greately
appreciate it. Please let me know your decision so I may provide credit in
my final report as to those who supported the study. If you require a
formal notice to be written, please let me know and I would be happy to
email you one.

Interested parties may contact me at [email hidden] or
253-925-1524 for further information or to sign up as participants.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Tishelle Betterman

My impression is that he wants to sell the product to 125 "participants".

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your comments.

I agree it is not the most "ideal" research situation and the reasons for
this are: being self-funded, I am already putting out a few thousand dollars
of my own money for this "small" pilot study; second, until this last week I
did not know where to get true placebos and the school did not rightfully
want me to create the cell salts and placebos myself due to liability, thus
I was stuck with having to use one cell salt; and third, I am a BA student.
Most people doing this type of research are at least at the MA level and
have some source of funding.

There is a control group, but it is not the ideal situation, as is often
true in volunteer cases. So there is the likelihood I will not find anything
statiscially significant. In the final report, considerations will of course
be noted to account for the placebo effect (although they cannot be truly
measured or controled for in this study).

How would you control for bias towards people with minor or unresolved
health problems? What instrument would you use? That would be good to know.
And on what experience or knowledge do you base that? Are you a researcher?

This situation is fairly typical in research studies, is it not? Companies
ask for people with certain symptoms to be involved with a research studies
all the time. Myself, I was looking for a representative study population. I
know that there are enough volunteers without any minor health problems
involved in this study, but it would most definitely be called out in the
report. I want it to be a fair study. The thing is, Peter, I am interested
in the result even if it is in favor of the null hypothesis. The reason is I
have other theories and if anything statistically signifant is revealed from
this pilot study - no matter if it is for or against the alternative
hypothesis, it can aid me in further investigations.

In fact, the study is set up in such a way to fail..... or provide some
significiant results. It may only show relationships, but it is possible it
will show something significant, too. The sad part is that no one except the
school has seen the study proposal, so it is difficult for anyone to make a
judgement about it at this point. I cannot obviously reveal everything at
this stage of ths study. I am purely looking for volunteers. They need not
have a positive opinion about astrological theory or its practice nor do
they need to have an agreeable opinion about the effects of cell salts or
homeopathic remedies for that matter. There are people who have already
volunteers to participate that hold both positions.

All the best,

Tishelle

Quoted message said:

Don't do it, Tishelle, if you are real, and this is not actually some more

Quoted message said:

subtle psychological survey.. As there is apparently no intention to have

Quoted message said:

a control group for this "pilot" study, the results of the trial can be

Quoted message said:

predicted without actually ever doing it. It will prove nothing, and if

Quoted message said:

your school does not fail you for performing such a poorly designed

Quoted message said:

medical study, it should.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Volunteers will be biased towards those who have minor or unresolved

Quoted message said:

health problems, and those who think this combination of nonsenses have

merit, and

Quoted message said:

who hope to feel better for it. It is predictable in such a short term

Quoted message said:

study that somewhere between sixty and ninety per cent will report

Quoted message said:

feeling better overall, and one hundred per cent will report feeling

Quoted message said:

better in at least some of the numerous parameters looked at in the

Quoted message said:

survey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your trial is designed in such a way that it cannot fail to get

Quoted message said:

positive results, and I find it a little hard to believe that the cell

Quoted message said:

salt people themselves are not already funding it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

"tb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Q00Ub.172306$sv6.926145@attbi_s52...

Quoted message said:

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your comments.

I agree it is not the most "ideal" research situation and the reasons for
this are: being self-funded, I am already putting out a few thousand

dollars

Quoted message said:

of my own money for this "small" pilot study; second, until this last week

I

Quoted message said:

did not know where to get true placebos and the school did not rightfully
want me to create the cell salts and placebos myself due to liability,

thus

Quoted message said:

I was stuck with having to use one cell salt; and third, I am a BA

student.

Quoted message said:

Most people doing this type of research are at least at the MA level and
have some source of funding.

There is a control group, but it is not the ideal situation, as is often
true in volunteer cases. So there is the likelihood I will not find

anything

Quoted message said:

statiscially significant. In the final report, considerations will of

course

Quoted message said:

be noted to account for the placebo effect (although they cannot be truly
measured or controled for in this study).

How would you control for bias towards people with minor or unresolved
health problems?

You can't. That is the population that you will be working with through
your request for volunteers. A control group that is not randomly derived
from within the same population will invalidate any results. The only way
you can get meaningful results is to randomise half that population to an
identical sham treatment.

But, look, if it is intended to be a simple trial that goes towards your
grades, and your tutors have already accepted it, perhaps I should not have
interfered. It is just that the biases in poorly performed research are
all towards positive results, and many spurious treatment methods are
marketed with the help of such.

Quoted message said:

What instrument would you use? That would be good to know.
And on what experience or knowledge do you base that? Are you a

researcher?

Quoted message said:

What do you mean by instrument? And these are basics to medical
research. I am a doctor with some research experience.

Quoted message said:

This situation is fairly typical in research studies, is it not? Companies
ask for people with certain symptoms to be involved with a research

studies

Quoted message said:

all the time. Myself, I was looking for a representative study population.

I

Quoted message said:

know that there are enough volunteers without any minor health problems
involved in this study, but it would most definitely be called out in the
report. I want it to be a fair study. The thing is, Peter, I am

interested

Quoted message said:

in the result even if it is in favor of the null hypothesis. The reason is

I

Quoted message said:

have other theories and if anything statistically signifant is revealed

from

Quoted message said:

this pilot study - no matter if it is for or against the alternative
hypothesis, it can aid me in further investigations.

I have changed my mind. If you think you are going to derive useful
information from the study, you should probably not be doing it unless you
do it very well. Otherwise you will be well away into the thrall of the
false hypothesis that has sustained so much junk medicine.

I can't advise how to set it up without more information as to what you want
to know. If you have the idea that vague health benefits may be shown by
applying your questionaire, be aware that you are bound to get positive
results on some questions merely due to chance. To prevent the numerous
other confounders that occur in medical trials patients must be randomised
and it should be double-blind.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

In fact, the study is set up in such a way to fail..... or provide some
significiant results. It may only show relationships, but it is possible

it

Quoted message said:

will show something significant, too. The sad part is that no one except

the

Quoted message said:

school has seen the study proposal, so it is difficult for anyone to make

a

Quoted message said:

judgement about it at this point. I cannot obviously reveal everything at
this stage of ths study. I am purely looking for volunteers. They need not
have a positive opinion about astrological theory or its practice nor do
they need to have an agreeable opinion about the effects of cell salts or
homeopathic remedies for that matter. There are people who have already
volunteers to participate that hold both positions.

All the best,

Tishelle

Quoted message said:

Don't do it, Tishelle, if you are real, and this is not actually some

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

subtle psychological survey.. As there is apparently no intention to

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a control group for this "pilot" study, the results of the trial can be

Quoted message said:

predicted without actually ever doing it. It will prove nothing, and if

Quoted message said:

your school does not fail you for performing such a poorly designed

Quoted message said:

medical study, it should.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Volunteers will be biased towards those who have minor or unresolved

Quoted message said:

health problems, and those who think this combination of nonsenses have

merit, and

Quoted message said:

who hope to feel better for it. It is predictable in such a short term

Quoted message said:

study that somewhere between sixty and ninety per cent will report

Quoted message said:

feeling better overall, and one hundred per cent will report feeling

Quoted message said:

better in at least some of the numerous parameters looked at in the

Quoted message said:

survey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your trial is designed in such a way that it cannot fail to get

Quoted message said:

positive results, and I find it a little hard to believe that the cell

Quoted message said:

salt people themselves are not already funding it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How would you control for bias towards people with minor or unresolved
health problems?

You can't. That is the population that you will be working with through
your request for volunteers. A control group that is not randomly

derived

Quoted message said:

from within the same population will invalidate any results. The only

way

Quoted message said:

you can get meaningful results is to randomise half that population to an
identical sham treatment.

But, look, if it is intended to be a simple trial that goes towards your
grades, and your tutors have already accepted it, perhaps I should not

have

Quoted message said:

interfered. It is just that the biases in poorly performed research are
all towards positive results, and many spurious treatment methods are
marketed with the help of such.

I will keep this in mind. My original study proposal was much
more effective and had double-blinded controls and
randomization, but it was not possible without
funding and certainly not in a 3-month term. I think the best
thing to do with this is
to be clear in my final report how the research was designed,
the pitfalls and
potential biases and confounding effects it has on any results,
should there be
anything significant. I am interested in the truth, as much as
it is possible to find, not
in presenting a better picture. Thankfully the school does not
care either. The
findings are what they are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What instrument would you use? That would be good to know.
And on what experience or knowledge do you base that? Are you a

researcher?

Quoted message said:

What do you mean by instrument? And these are basics to medical
research. I am a doctor with some research experience.

What instrument would you use to measure results? I am using
the SF-36v2. I'm
sure you've heard of it if you've done medical research. From
what I understand
it is well respected. I didn't want to use one I created
because that brings in further
complications. The SF-36 has been used extensively and thus is
a fairly trusted
source in the medical community.

I want it to be a fair study. The thing is, Peter, I am

Quoted message said:

interested

Quoted message said:

in the result even if it is in favor of the null hypothesis. The reason

is

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

have other theories and if anything statistically signifant is revealed

from

Quoted message said:

this pilot study - no matter if it is for or against the alternative
hypothesis, it can aid me in further investigations.

I have changed my mind. If you think you are going to derive useful
information from the study, you should probably not be doing it unless you
do it very well. Otherwise you will be well away into the thrall of the
false hypothesis that has sustained so much junk medicine.

I can't advise how to set it up without more information as to what you

want

Quoted message said:

to know. If you have the idea that vague health benefits may be shown by
applying your questionaire, be aware that you are bound to get positive
results on some questions merely due to chance. To prevent the numerous
other confounders that occur in medical trials patients must be randomised
and it should be double-blind.

Thank you for the warning. I will take it into consideration.
I agree the study
*should be* randomized and double-blinded, but it is not
possible in this one and
we are dealing with real-world here - there are many things we
would like to occur
and are not always possible, even in research by professionals.

Tishelle