Circuit Training and Cycling

[bike_man0079]

I have question for everyone, does circuit training help with cycling instead of regular strength training? I'd think it would being that cyclists are endurance athletes. Help is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!







Thanks and GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mmerchant]

I have question for everyone, does circuit training help with cycling instead of regular strength training? I'd think it would being that cyclists are endurance athletes. Help is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!







Thanks and GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

all the research points to strength training and circuit training having little impact on performance in TRAINED individuals (defined as someone who has a well rounded conditioning program for at least six months). in the untrained, strength training has increased time to exhaustion and power output, but this intuitively makes since.
now that being said, should an cyclist, (endurance athlete) strength train - ABSOLUTELY! endurance sports are a steady state, rythmic activity in a controlled movement that stresses a group of muscles (agonists) to a far greater extent than others (antagonists) in a shortened range of motion ( think about how little your body moves on the bike!). even with a non-weight bearing activity such as cycling, wear and tear of this repetitive movement can create muscular imbalances and eventually make the body highly susceptible to some injury.

a simple strength training program working the whole body in gross motor, multi-joint movements and an whole body flexibility program twice a week will
significantly reduce the development of muscular imbalances and keep you on the bike.

more training because your not injured equals higher performance - that is how strength training (circuit training as in your case) will improve your performance. but being stronger will not transfer to the bike, if you want to ride your bike faster - then ride your bike faster!!!!!!!!!

mmerchant

 

[ric_stern/RST]

all the research points to strength training and circuit training having little impact on performance in TRAINED individuals (defined as someone who has a well rounded conditioning program for at least six months). in the untrained, strength training has increased time to exhaustion and power output, but this intuitively makes since.
now that being said, should an cyclist, (endurance athlete) strength train - ABSOLUTELY! endurance sports are a steady state, rythmic activity in a controlled movement that stresses a group of muscles (agonists) to a far greater extent than others (antagonists) in a shortened range of motion ( think about how little your body moves on the bike!). even with a non-weight bearing activity such as cycling, wear and tear of this repetitive movement can create muscular imbalances and eventually make the body highly susceptible to some injury.

a simple strength training program working the whole body in gross motor, multi-joint movements and an whole body flexibility program twice a week will
significantly reduce the development of muscular imbalances and keep you on the bike.

more training because your not injured equals higher performance - that is how strength training (circuit training as in your case) will improve your performance. but being stronger will not transfer to the bike, if you want to ride your bike faster - then ride your bike faster!!!!!!!!!

mmerchant

I don't know anyone who has been injured through "muscular imbalances" etc because all they did is ride a bike. i've been coaching since the early 90's.

ric

 

[mmerchant]

I don't know anyone who has been injured through "muscular imbalances" etc because all they did is ride a bike. i've been coaching since the early 90's.

ric

i find it hard to believe that if you have been coaching that long, that you have not come across any of the over-use injuries common to cycling.

Virtually all over-use injuries (ITB Syndrome, knee pain, Sciatica or Piriformis Syndrome, SI Joint and Low back pain, Cervical pain etc) are caused to a greater extent by muscular imbalances. Basically, some muscles are pulling with more force than their opposing muscles (imbalance) and creating a shearing force or torque across the joint or over-using a muscle beyonds its capacity. now that is on the bike, what about the other 20-23 hours a day where you are moving, lifting, sleeping where these imbalances increase stress to susceptible areas and pre-dispose the body to experience a possible traumatic event.

Our practice deals with these scenarios all the time, and when we have removed the pain from individual and returned them to activity, the ones who follow our strength training and flexibility program rarely return to us for these type of injuries. This is primarily due to correcting the "imbalances" and removing the excessive torque and shearing force that were experienced before treatment.

mmerchant

 

[Carrera]

All I can add is that the best weight-training exercise that will hit your cardiovascular system is squats, not circuit training. 20 rep sets of squats to failure will kill any cyclist, I guarantee it - and I'm talking about cardio load as well.
However, as Ric explained many times, there is no solid data to suggest this will actually improve your endurance cycling ability and because squats are so brief, it doesn't compare with a lower intensity 3 - 4 hour bike ride (much needed for endurance athletes).

I have question for everyone, does circuit training help with cycling instead of regular strength training? I'd think it would being that cyclists are endurance athletes. Help is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!







Thanks and GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ric_stern/RST]

i find it hard to believe that if you have been coaching that long, that you have not come across any of the over-use injuries common to cycling.

about the only injuries i see are from crashes. case in point is myself, been racing since '84, not done weights since winter '85, rarely do other exercises (and when i do i usually end up injuring myself). i think my first year i probably did about 6000 km, and my peak year did about 30000 km (full time). i'm as weak as a puppy and the only injuries i've had are from crashes.

Virtually all over-use injuries (ITB Syndrome, knee pain, Sciatica or Piriformis Syndrome, SI Joint and Low back pain, Cervical pain etc) are caused to a greater extent by muscular imbalances. Basically, some muscles are pulling with more force than their opposing muscles (imbalance) and creating a shearing force or torque across the joint or over-using a muscle beyonds its capacity. now that is on the bike, what about the other 20-23 hours a day where you are moving, lifting, sleeping where these imbalances increase stress to susceptible areas and pre-dispose the body to experience a possible traumatic event.

i can't think of any traumatic events i've had while sleeping... , and i've certainly hurt myself lifting, but that doesn't stop me from training, and as i said i'm not very strong, plus i have a mild disability (Still's Disease), i haven't and i don't recall anyone else injuring themself from cycling (crashes not included, or acts of stupidity - e.g., never cycled more than 50 km, and then goes and does a 200 km ride).

and i coach up to 20 people a year

ric

 

[Orange Fish]

I think one important thing that has been is that most cyclists (especially the ones who are receiving information in this forum) aren't only riding bikes. They have families, jobs, and other life "stuff" going on that requires much much more movement than just flexing and extending their legs in the saggital plane all day. I recently had one of my guys who rides exclusively go for an impromptu run yesterday (not my suggestion), and today he's sore as hell. While this isn't necessarily an injury, he did do some damage to his muscles and if he were to push it any harder or longer, who knows what would have happened. He was risking an acute overuse injury right there.
Anyone who says that circuit or weight training are both useless for cycling is missing the big picture. While performance gains from this may not be seen at the moment, there are many other benefits to training with weights that, while perhaps not helping, will not hinder cycling performance if prescribed correctly.

I don't know anyone who has been injured through "muscular imbalances" etc because all they did is ride a bike. i've been coaching since the early 90's.

ric

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I think one important thing that has been is that most cyclists (especially the ones who are receiving information in this forum) aren't only riding bikes. They have families, jobs, and other life "stuff" going on that requires much much more movement than just flexing and extending their legs in the saggital plane all day.

i don't disagree (that people do other things). i do as well - everything from cycling to DIY to gardening to going for a walk to lifting boxes.

Anyone who says that circuit or weight training are both useless for cycling is missing the big picture. While performance gains from this may not be seen at the moment, there are many other benefits to training with weights that, while perhaps not helping, will not hinder cycling performance if prescribed correctly.

i know lots of people who don't do any other exercise, and they don't fall down with all these injuries, that everyone goes on about. That said, it's fine if you want to do some other exercises to help you do 'normal' stuff.

As i've mentioned previously (another thread), neither weights or circuits help (endurance) cycling in trained cyclists, and are potentially detrimental to performance (however they are prescribed). I'm not sure that there's much good evidence to support their use to prevent injuries.

Finally, people ask upon the lines of "can weight training improve my climbing/TTing/etc" which it (weights) doesn't do.

 

[mmerchant]

i don't disagree (that people do other things). i do as well - everything from cycling to DIY to gardening to going for a walk to lifting boxes.



i know lots of people who don't do any other exercise, and they don't fall down with all these injuries, that everyone goes on about. That said, it's fine if you want to do some other exercises to help you do 'normal' stuff.

As i've mentioned previously (another thread), neither weights or circuits help (endurance) cycling in trained cyclists, and are potentially detrimental to performance (however they are prescribed). I'm not sure that there's much good evidence to support their use to prevent injuries.

Finally, people ask upon the lines of "can weight training improve my climbing/TTing/etc" which it (weights) doesn't do.

if you have been working with cyclists since the early 90's and none of them have experienced any injuries - you are the exception, not the rule. There are millions of cyclists throughout the world who become injured, look to the threads on this site and see how many questions are related to pain and injury. these injuries are so common that accepted rehabilitative protocols have been developed to address them. these protocols always involve specific "strength training" regimes to address the problems and when the athlete is released, a comprehensive strength training program is prescribed in order to guard against the likelihood of a recurring injury.

what we really should be discussing is a term neuromuscular coordination - basically, it is the efficiency of your muscles, individually and as a group, working together to produce force(power). the concept of timing and cylinders in an engine, you want the timing of each cylinder to produce power at the optimal moment and you want all cylinders working optimally. this holds for the body's musculature. in order for the muscles to produce optimal force, the muscles must be able to excite all neurons necessary and involve ALL muscles necessary for the particular action.

what has been proven is that repetitive motions performed in an reduced range motion (endurance activities) creates poor neuromuscular coordination. all the motor neurons in the working muscles are not being "fired" optimally and not all the muscles are working effectively to produce force.

what we want to accomplish with an appropriate strength training program and flexibilty program is the restoration of this neuromuscular coordination. the athlete then becomes more economical, ie, able to produce same or more watts with less effort. now being able to squat 400 lbs won't automatically due this - in fact if you strength train with poor neuromuscular coordination all you are doing is enhancing those poor motor patterns.

i can tell you anecdotally and empirically that athete/patients who have come to us for treatment of these common injuries have ALWAYS returned to their sport and have improved their performance. this is done without changing their on the bike training - we don't "coach" our athletes/patients, they usually have someone else doing that, we merely make suggestions on volume and intensity. what we do is make them more efficient.

now what constitutes an "appropriate" strength training program - that is a whole other topic. what i would like to see if anyone in academia looking for a good and relevant research topic would study this. improve your muscular systems ability to work individually and synergistically to make it more efficient then see what happens on the bike - i guarentee, if you improve this your performance will improve and the chance of injury will be diminished if not done away with.

any exercise phys students looking for a topic?

mmerchant

 

[ric_stern/RST]

what has been proven is that repetitive motions performed in an reduced range motion (endurance activities) creates poor neuromuscular coordination. all the motor neurons in the working muscles are not being "fired" optimally and not all the muscles are working effectively to produce force.

please point me to some peer reviewed research that shows that strength training increases performance, in endurance trained cyclists.

what we want to accomplish with an appropriate strength training program and flexibilty program is the restoration of this neuromuscular coordination. the athlete then becomes more economical, ie, able to produce same or more watts with less effort. now being able to squat 400 lbs won't automatically due this - in fact if you strength train with poor neuromuscular coordination all you are doing is enhancing those poor motor patterns.

ummm efficiency is related to type I fibres, and years cycling, see Coyle et al 1991

the amount of force required to undertake endurance cycling performance is very low to moderate such that (almost) any healthy, age, gender and mass matched sedentary person can generate the same forces (or higher) as elite cyclists.

i can tell you anecdotally and empirically that athete/patients who have come to us for treatment of these common injuries have ALWAYS returned to their sport and have improved their performance. this is done without changing their on the bike training - we don't "coach" our athletes/patients, they usually have someone else doing that, we merely make suggestions on volume and intensity. what we do is make them more efficient.

efficiency is related to type I fibres and shows a strong correlation to years spent cycling. efficiency is also improved by pedalling at a lower cadence at a given power output. perhaps you mean something else other than efficiency?

now what constitutes an "appropriate" strength training program - that is a whole other topic. what i would like to see if anyone in academia looking for a good and relevant research topic would study this. improve your muscular systems ability to work individually and synergistically to make it more efficient then see what happens on the bike - i guarentee, if you improve this your performance will improve and the chance of injury will be diminished if not done away with.

any exercise phys students looking for a topic?

mmerchant

well, there are a few studies looking at strength training and cycling performance, and none of these show increased cycling performance in trained cyclists. additionally, there's no reason to think that there would be.

Ric

 

[mmerchant]

please point me to some peer reviewed research that shows that strength training increases performance, in endurance trained cyclists.

As i stated before, i agree that conventional strength training has not been shown to improve endurance performance, what i am talking about is improving motor neuron activation therefore exciting more of the muscles of all the muscles involved to produce force - greater excitation = greater economy

ummm efficiency is related to type I fibres, and years cycling, see Coyle et al 1991
AEROBIC efficiency is related to type I fibers, so if i recruit a greater percentage of type I fibers (neuromuscular coordination) i therefore make the aerobic engine "bigger" (more efficient)

the amount of force required to undertake endurance cycling performance is very low to moderate such that (almost) any healthy, age, gender and mass matched sedentary person can generate the same forces (or higher) as elite cyclists.

Exactly, if more motor neurons are being excited throughout the kinetic chain (everything from calfs to the lumbo-pelvic-hip complex) because the individual has greater neuromuscular coordination rather than from overworked and facilitated quads and sluggish gluteals, each stroke becomes more efficient with stress being dispersed over a greater muscles mass - greater force can be achieved with increased time to exhaustion.

efficiency is related to type I fibres and shows a strong correlation to years spent cycling. efficiency is also improved by pedalling at a lower cadence at a given power output. perhaps you mean something else other than efficiency?

i talking about the efficient production of optimal force - all muscles involved to generate force at appropriate excitation levels, not the compensatory actions of say strong quads making up for sluggish Lumbo-pelvic- hip musculature

well, there are a few studies looking at strength training and cycling performance, and none of these show increased cycling performance in trained cyclists. additionally, there's no reason to think that there would be.

Again, your missing my point, what i am talking about is not squats, leg extensions, leg curls and calf raises. i talking about the quality of each contraction eliciting the appropriate and optimal motor neuron excitation from all involved musculature. to achieve this is far too lengthy a discussion for this forum - but believe me, that is where the focus of the research should be heading - but i feel the number of people that fully understand this is rather small at this time.

mmerchant

 

[mmerchant]

mmerchant

sorry, replied incorrectly, my responses are in the discussion with ric's, will straighten out soon

mmerchant

 

[ric_stern/RST]

sorry, replied incorrectly, my responses are in the discussion with ric's, will straighten out soon

mmerchant

i'll sort the quotes out for you, to make it readable. but won't get a chance to reply for a while!

ric

 

[mmerchant]

i'll sort the quotes out for you, to make it readable. but won't get a chance to reply for a while!

ric

thank you!

mmerchant