Clean Simoni shatters ascent record?

[Serafino]

Simoni goes 1850 metres/hour

Gilberto Simoni (Saunier Duval-Prodir) conquered the 10.1-kilometre Monte Zoncolan in 1850 metres per hour according to La Gazzetta dello Sport. The speed, 39 minutes over the 1203 metres, 1850 VAM (Velocity Ascended, Metres per hour Vm/h), was faster than that of Ivan Basso on the Maielletta Passo Lanciano in 2006, 1805 VAM. Marco Pantani blasted up the Alpe d'Huez with a 1791 VAM and Danilo Di Luca did the final four kilometres of Tre Cime di Lavaredo with a 1750 VAM.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may31news2

Amazing the performances that clean cycling can produce. Faster than the EPO users and "thinking about it" blood dopers!

Extraterrestial indeed!

A new era has dawned!

 

[wicklow200]

Simoni goes 1850 metres/hour

Gilberto Simoni (Saunier Duval-Prodir) conquered the 10.1-kilometre Monte Zoncolan in 1850 metres per hour according to La Gazzetta dello Sport. The speed, 39 minutes over the 1203 metres, 1850 VAM (Velocity Ascended, Metres per hour Vm/h), was faster than that of Ivan Basso on the Maielletta Passo Lanciano in 2006, 1805 VAM. Marco Pantani blasted up the Alpe d'Huez with a 1791 VAM and Danilo Di Luca did the final four kilometres of Tre Cime di Lavaredo with a 1750 VAM.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may31news2

Amazing the performances that clean cycling can produce. Faster than the EPO users and "thinking about it" blood dopers!

Extraterrestial indeed!

A new era has dawned!

Yes but doesnt this depend also on multiple other factors - weather conditions, pacing, length of the stage ridden before the climb, exhertions on previous day,....

 

[guncha]

Yes but doesnt this depend also on multiple other factors - weather conditions, pacing, length of the stage ridden before the climb, exhertions on previous day,....

Yes, it depends. But afromentioned Passo Lanciano climb (8.5%) was the first mountaintop finish of the Giro (8th stage) and it was the only climb of the day in 172km stage. There was transitional mountain stage a few days ago and a few flat stages, also a rest/refill day. I don't remeber weather conditions. But I don't think the speed had to be so high yesterday...

 

[poulidor]

It was a similar stage as 2006 "Basso's" stage, only one major passe.
If without EPO and blood doping, they are faster ...

 

[Eldrack]

You have to remember that the average gradient of the Zoncolan is 11.9%, and Simoni's average speed was just below 10mph. Therefore rolling resistance and air resistance will be significantly lower than on a much flatter climb, nearly all the power output of the riders was going into overcoming gravity.

Simoni's average power on the climb came out at around 6.2 watts/kg (from analytic cycling). High, but not earth shattering. Dr Coggan's charts set 6.4 watts/kg over 1 hour as the top, Simoni's power is 'only' about 6.1 watts/kg over an hour.

 

[Bro Deal]

Simoni's average power on the climb came out at around 6.2 watts/kg (from analytic cycling). High, but not earth shattering. Dr Coggan's charts set 6.4 watts/kg over 1 hour as the top, Simoni's power is 'only' about 6.1 watts/kg over an hour.

If I remember correctly, Dr. Coggan likes to promote Dr. Coyle's fantasy of massive power increases due to a slight change in cadence. If you read Usenet's rec.bicycles.racing group then you can find that during the late 90's and early 00's Coggan was one of the guys denying that there was rampant doping in cycling. He thought the performances could all be explained as natural. We have all seen how accurate that belief has turned out to be.

 

[Trev_S]

It also depends on the gradient.
the steeper the better
ie:if the is a flat portion of the climb, time gets used up but no vertical climb figure.



I found an example of VAM figures (as shown below) where riding at the same wattage a rider will have a higher VAM figure when on a steeper gradient than riding a lower gradient.

On a lower gradient climb it is harder to get a high VAM figure. A rider would have to generate a much higher power figure to reach the same VAM figure

Comparing figures from one mountain to another means very little.

from http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=48

Some considerations on the relationship between VAM performances and climb gradients...

As we could often notice (cfr. many of our Comments to races), the gradient of a climb greatly influences the VAM performance of athletes: the higher the gradient in percentage, the higher the VAM values developed by the riders.

But how much does the VAM increases for every grade in climbing, with the cyclist keeping a constant power output?

Repeated on the road measuring with a rider weighing 64 kg and pedaling at 300 watts gave the following results:

5% gradient = 1180 VAM (m/h)
6% = 1215 m/h
7% = 1250 m/h
8% = 1290 m/h
9% = 1340 m/h
10% = 1400 m/h
11% = 1475 m/h
12% = 1565 m/h
13% = 1675 m/h

As we can clearly see, VAM values exponentially rise up with every gradient increase.

 

[doctorSpoc]

"clean" whatever! did you read the interview in proCycling with simoni and ricco.. as soon as talk turned to doping simoni said he had to go to lunch and cut it right off... "clean"... gime a break!!

i would have to say that the gradient because of the lower speed probably would help the VAM...

 

[needhelp]

Just a question

I'm not sure but hasn't Simoni had to have the 2 week rest for high haematocrit levels at some stage?

Im probably wrong but I cant remember...

 

[Frigo's Luggage]

Wow. Simoni and DiLuca are faster than Pantani? Yep. The sport has really cleaned itself up nicely.

Simoni goes 1850 metres/hour

Gilberto Simoni (Saunier Duval-Prodir) conquered the 10.1-kilometre Monte Zoncolan in 1850 metres per hour according to La Gazzetta dello Sport. The speed, 39 minutes over the 1203 metres, 1850 VAM (Velocity Ascended, Metres per hour Vm/h), was faster than that of Ivan Basso on the Maielletta Passo Lanciano in 2006, 1805 VAM. Marco Pantani blasted up the Alpe d'Huez with a 1791 VAM and Danilo Di Luca did the final four kilometres of Tre Cime di Lavaredo with a 1750 VAM.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may31news2

Amazing the performances that clean cycling can produce. Faster than the EPO users and "thinking about it" blood dopers!

Extraterrestial indeed!

A new era has dawned!

 

[helmutRoole2]

Wow. Simoni and DiLuca are faster than Pantani? Yep. The sport has really cleaned itself up nicely.

+1.

 

[Serafino]

By "Clean" I was posing a question (i.e. many feel Simoni was robbed by a dirty Basso the extraterrestial last year but give his performance this week ....)

BTW, does anyone have the data on Simoni's two wins up this same mountain top finish in the Giro?

 

[helmutRoole2]

Oh, he was robbed by Basso. Now, who did Simoni rob? Who finished third that year?

 

[thecyclist]

Just a question

I'm not sure but hasn't Simoni had to have the 2 week rest for high haematocrit levels at some stage?

Im probably wrong but I cant remember...

Yes he was thrown out of the Tour of Portugal in 1998 with a high haematocrit.

I think there may be one more instance, but I don't remember it.

 

[thecyclist]

Oh, he was robbed by Basso. Now, who did Simoni rob? Who finished third that year?

Simoni finished third ahead of Cunego.

It was like this:

1 Ivan Basso - xtraterrestrial
2 José E. Gutierrez Cataluna - doper
3 Gilberto Simoni - doper
4 Damiano Cunego - Cecchini client
5 Paolo Savoldelli - Ferrari client
6 Sandy Casar - Frenchman so he is clean


Looks like Casar is the winner of last years race.

 

[fbircher]

You have to remember that the average gradient of the Zoncolan is 11.9%, and Simoni's average speed was just below 10mph. Therefore rolling resistance and air resistance will be significantly lower than on a much flatter climb, nearly all the power output of the riders was going into overcoming gravity.

Simoni's average power on the climb came out at around 6.2 watts/kg (from analytic cycling). High, but not earth shattering. Dr Coggan's charts set 6.4 watts/kg over 1 hour as the top, Simoni's power is 'only' about 6.1 watts/kg over an hour.

So Dr. Coggan believes that 6.4 W/kg of power output is possible to sustain for 1 hour by a non-doped cyclist? That would mean that a 64 kg (140 lb) cyclist could produce 410 Watts of power for 1 hour. To put this in perspective, 410W is more than half a horsepower! So a skinny little 140 lb guy has more than half the power-producing capacity of a horse – without chemical assistance – and Dr. Croggan thinks that's reasonable? Then Greg Lemond must be a sore loser to state that such outputs didn't exist before the advent of EPO and are utterly impossible without advanced doping techniques.

 

[Eldrack]

So Dr. Coggan believes that 6.4 W/kg of power output is possible to sustain for 1 hour by a non-doped cyclist? That would mean that a 64 kg (140 lb) cyclist could produce 410 Watts of power for 1 hour. To put this in perspective, 410W is more than half a horsepower! So a skinny little 140 lb guy has more than half the power-producing capacity of a horse – without chemical assistance – and Dr. Croggan thinks that's reasonable? Then Greg Lemond must be a sore loser to state that such outputs didn't exist before the advent of EPO and are utterly impossible without advanced doping techniques.

As I understand it the tables make no assumptions as to how you get to 6.4 W/kg. All the tables say is that the very tops athletes can produce this much power, the tables are based entirely on observations. It's the power you need to win a grand tour against the current field of riders.

I have no idea whether or not Dr Coggan believes that it is possible for an un doped rider to attain such a power output, how about you ask him yourself (he frequents the power/training areas of these forums).

 

[ilpirata]

Simoni himself finished third. But of course Gutierrez who finished second is suspected of involvement in OP. 6 minutes down further was fourth place Cunego and 7 down was Savoldelli.

Oh, he was robbed by Basso. Now, who did Simoni rob? Who finished third that year?

 

[helmutRoole2]

Simoni finished third ahead of Cunego.

It was like this:

1 Ivan Basso - xtraterrestrial
2 José E. Gutierrez Cataluna - doper
3 Gilberto Simoni - doper
4 Damiano Cunego - Cecchini client
5 Paolo Savoldelli - Ferrari client
6 Sandy Casar - Frenchman so he is clean


Looks like Casar is the winner of last years race.

I knew we'd get to the bottom of this.

 

[fbircher]

As I understand it the tables make no assumptions as to how you get to 6.4 W/kg. All the tables say is that the very tops athletes can produce this much power, the tables are based entirely on observations. It's the power you need to win a grand tour against the current field of riders.

I have no idea whether or not Dr Coggan believes that it is possible for an un doped rider to attain such a power output, how about you ask him yourself (he frequents the power/training areas of these forums).

Dr. Coggan - if you read this post, consider it an invitation to share your opinions with us.