Collarbone

Jon Bond said:

"bomba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I've personally seen 2 break, and known 8 others that have broken. Plus my
dad is an orthopedic surgeon, so I get some stuff from that.

Only 2 of those were from direct impact. Unlucky both times, just came down
with their entire body weight on the shoulder.

I didn't break my collarbone but I separated the AC joint - ie. I torn
the ligaments holding the end of the collarbone to the shoulder. That
was the result of landing upside down with my entire weight impacting on
the BACK of my left shoulder. If you reach up with your right hand and
clasp the back of your left shoulder as best you can, that was the point
of impact.

Quoted message said:

The worst one I've heard of wasn't collarbone at all - it was the acromion.
Basically the collarbone on the backside, it connects to your scapula
(shoulderblade). Older guy (55 or so) fell on it mountain biking - that was
a direct injury. Its under tension, so when it cracks, it pulls apart and
they need to operate and pin just to get the bone to line back up. He now
wears that fox plastic shoulder/chest protector when he goes biking so he
doesn't break it again.

Coincidentally, I saw the Orthopedic surgeon just yesterday after almost
two years since the injury. I have a Grade 3, 1" displacement and it's
displaced backwards as well. He suggests reconstruction that involves
taking tendons from my leg, drilling holes in the ends of the bone and
basically pulling it all together and strapping it into place with the
tendon.

Recover time is similar to the original injury - unsurprisingly.
He's very enthusiastic and thinks that it will probably be a good result
for me. I'm still thinking about it. There's no good time to be out
of action for 6 weeks and I don't like unnecessary surgery. I guess
that I should get it done because it does cause problems for me.

Quoted message said:

Your best bet is to learn how to fall. Take a few judo classes, then
practice shoulder rolling. I've screwed up both my shoulders, but the
injuries were always comparitively minor to what could, or should, have
happened to me. Granted, I had 8 years or so of karate, but if you practice
just the falling enough you'll get real good at rolling out of falls. My
actual injuries have come when either I couldn't get away from my bike and
roll, or when skiing and getting tripped up going slowly, without enough
momentum to roll.

I'd agree with that to a degree. I did several years of Aikido.
Unfortunately my fall wasn't one that I could roll out of. In fact,
most of my falls aren't like that. They are usually on the rough
technical stuff so I don't usually have the momentum to roll out nor a
flat, safe area to land on anyway.
--
Westie

Dan Volker said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My broke his collarbone in 2 places yeaterday. What body armor/chest
protector is the best for preventing this?

My view on this is that people who have neglected their upper body
development ( have not been working out in the gym) have a relatively
fragile upper body as this relates to big impacts like crashes--on the mtb
or road bike.

I have to disagree. I'm very stocky with a wide, strong chest and
shoulders. Basically I'm built like a brick [censored]. If anyone was
going to avoid a collarbone injury in line with your theory, it would
have been me. Unfortunately my injury was sustained BECAUSE my
substantial weight was behind the point of impact on my shoulder.
Although it didn't break, the pressure and weight caused tendons to rip.
--
Westie

"Shawn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Me first, Me first!
You dink! *Mountain* bikers usually have significant upper body
development. Riding in *mountains* requires a lot of upper body
involvement.
When I went OTB at 20 mph while riding in *the mountains* some years
back, and severely separated my shoulder, I had lots of upper body
muscle. I was XC skiing, riding, trail running and lifting. With your
logic, if I was a flat land roadie from someplace like, oh say, Florida!
the impact would have been enough to turn me inside out from right to
left. I respectfully disagree.

Sarcastically Yours,
Shawn

Sorry Shawn, but mountain bikers are bigger in the upper body than
roadies---this is almost as impressive as being bigger than a soccer player
or marathon runner ;-) Being bigger than a runt is no claim to fame.

While we could have a contest to see who can survive the biggest impact
without damage--and I think a muscular rider who knows how to fall would
win---few would be stupid enough to enter such a contest.
However, if I get someone to shoot video of me in one of the upcoming
mountain bike races at Oleta, there is every chance you could see me screw
up and absorb way more impact than you would want to absorb, and get up and
continue as nothing had happened--this due to much more muscle than most
riders would want to be weight penalized by, well used falling skills, and
not enough sense to ride slower :-)

Dan V

"Westie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My broke his collarbone in 2 places yeaterday. What body armor/chest
protector is the best for preventing this?

My view on this is that people who have neglected their upper body
development ( have not been working out in the gym) have a relatively
fragile upper body as this relates to big impacts like crashes--on the

mtb

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or road bike.

I have to disagree. I'm very stocky with a wide, strong chest and
shoulders. Basically I'm built like a brick [censored]. If anyone was
going to avoid a collarbone injury in line with your theory, it would
have been me. Unfortunately my injury was sustained BECAUSE my
substantial weight was behind the point of impact on my shoulder.
Although it didn't break, the pressure and weight caused tendons to rip.
--
Westie

When I take a big header over the bars, if I don't have time to spin all the
way over to land on the middle of my back, I will often land on my shoulder.
The thing that protects me ( so far at least) from collar bone injuries has
been the mass in the lat area and upper torso that my arm is pushed into on
a hard shoulder contact---the arm gets pushed into muscle that protrudes
out --meaning when tensed up, it would be impossible to have the arms
hanging straight down--they would be pushed outward by the lats. When not
tensed up, they will hang down normally. When I crash, these muscles tense
on impact. Years of snow skiing taught me which muscles not to tense, and
how to roll with the fall.

And then of course, it might all just come down to luck, but I have had an
awful lot of falls to be that lucky...

Dan V

Dan Volker said:

"Shawn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Me first, Me first!
You dink! *Mountain* bikers usually have significant upper body
development. Riding in *mountains* requires a lot of upper body
involvement.
When I went OTB at 20 mph while riding in *the mountains* some years
back, and severely separated my shoulder, I had lots of upper body
muscle. I was XC skiing, riding, trail running and lifting. With
your logic, if I was a flat land roadie from someplace like, oh say,
Florida! the impact would have been enough to turn me inside out
from right to left. I respectfully disagree.

Sarcastically Yours,
Shawn

Sorry Shawn, but mountain bikers are bigger in the upper body than
roadies---this is almost as impressive as being bigger than a soccer
player or marathon runner ;-) Being bigger than a runt is no claim
to fame.

While we could have a contest to see who can survive the biggest
impact without damage--and I think a muscular rider who knows how to
fall would win---few would be stupid enough to enter such a contest.
However, if I get someone to shoot video of me in one of the upcoming
mountain bike races at Oleta, there is every chance you could see me
screw up and absorb way more impact than you would want to absorb,
and get up and continue as nothing had happened--this due to much
more muscle than most riders would want to be weight penalized by,
well used falling skills, and not enough sense to ride slower :-)

Dan V

Are you trying to say that you bounce when you crash? And you have video?

penny

"small change" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"Shawn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Me first, Me first!
You dink! *Mountain* bikers usually have significant upper body
development. Riding in *mountains* requires a lot of upper body
involvement.
When I went OTB at 20 mph while riding in *the mountains* some years
back, and severely separated my shoulder, I had lots of upper body
muscle. I was XC skiing, riding, trail running and lifting. With
your logic, if I was a flat land roadie from someplace like, oh say,
Florida! the impact would have been enough to turn me inside out
from right to left. I respectfully disagree.

Sarcastically Yours,
Shawn

Sorry Shawn, but mountain bikers are bigger in the upper body than
roadies---this is almost as impressive as being bigger than a soccer
player or marathon runner ;-) Being bigger than a runt is no claim
to fame.

While we could have a contest to see who can survive the biggest
impact without damage--and I think a muscular rider who knows how to
fall would win---few would be stupid enough to enter such a contest.
However, if I get someone to shoot video of me in one of the upcoming
mountain bike races at Oleta, there is every chance you could see me
screw up and absorb way more impact than you would want to absorb,
and get up and continue as nothing had happened--this due to much
more muscle than most riders would want to be weight penalized by,
well used falling skills, and not enough sense to ride slower :-)

Dan V

Are you trying to say that you bounce when you crash? And you have video?

penny

Just about. But no video yet, since I usually have been the one with the
camera when videos were shot. But for upcoming races in the next few months,
Sandra will shoot some footage, and is more than likely to catch me in a
crash, sooner or later...
Sorry to disappoint. :-)

Dan

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

this due to much

Quoted message said:

more muscle than most riders would want to be weight penalized by,

Oh, Danny, you're such a Man... Those muscles... <swoon>

Quoted message said:

and not enough sense

No comment. ;-P

Steve

"Stephen Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

this due to much

Quoted message said:

more muscle than most riders would want to be weight penalized by,

Oh, Danny, you're such a Man... Those muscles... <swoon>

Quoted message said:

and not enough sense

No comment. ;-P

Steve

[censored] Steve, I'm not implying this is going to make me more macho or a
better or faster mountain biker--in fact, I'm conceding that the weight
penalty will make me slower than a thin rider....the only point of the post
is that if you don't race, if you don't consider going as fast as possible
all that important, then the gym workouts could contribute to better bone
density, better impact absorption, and less likelihood of a collarbone or
other bone break. It may not help much if you fall badly ( as in people who
stick their hand out to absorb impact instead of tucking in arms and
rolling when possible), or if the muscular person goes beyond a certain
"strength to weight" point....at 200 pounds I bounce well, but I know guys
my height at the gym, who weigh over 265 of muscle, and their muscle weight
will probably go well past the point of protection, and become inertial
damage potential. I'm not suggesting huge ridiculous, non-athletic muscle
like this...

I'm suggesting a body type more like a pole vaulter or decathlete, would be
less injury prone for mountain biking.

Dan V

"Dan Volker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm suggesting a body type more like a pole vaulter or decathlete, would

be

Quoted message said:

less injury prone for mountain biking.

Dan V

One other point I forgot to mention---I've read several studies which
conclude that cycling without weight training will cause a DECREASE in bone
density--I assume the mechanism would be the acidity caused by heavy aerobic
and anaerobic respiration for hours at a time, many days per week, causing
a leeching of calcium out of the bones, as the body attempts to buffer the
acidity caused by this, with its mineral stores ( calcium being the store
in greatest concentration--in the bones). Taking electrolytes should help,
but the studies suggest weight bearing exercise would be required to reverse
the calcium loss. This and the tyrannosaurus body type, makes many roadies
with zero gym time, quite fragile and easily broken when they go over their
bars. Mountain bikers need gym time and electrolytes, to increase bone
density and limit injuries ( calcium is one of the major electrolyte
minerals) . And I still think that muscles help absorb impacts, up to a
certain max muscle size, at which point overall body weight creates too
much inertia. At 200 pounds I bounce from bad crashes with little
discomfort--but when I weighed 237 pounds back in January, the same hard
crash would hurt...Too much inertial mass for its own good.

Dan V

Dan Volker said:

One other point I forgot to mention---I've read several studies which
conclude that cycling without weight training will cause a DECREASE
in bone density--I assume the mechanism would be the acidity caused
by heavy aerobic and anaerobic respiration for hours at a time, many
days per week, causing a leeching of calcium out of the bones, as the
body attempts to buffer the acidity caused by this, with its
mineral stores ( calcium being the store in greatest
concentration--in the bones). Taking electrolytes should help, but
the studies suggest weight bearing exercise would be required to
reverse the calcium loss. This and the tyrannosaurus body type,
makes many roadies with zero gym time, quite fragile and easily
broken when they go over their bars. Mountain bikers need gym time
and electrolytes, to increase bone density and limit injuries (
calcium is one of the major electrolyte minerals) . And I still think
that muscles help absorb impacts, up to a certain max muscle size, at
which point overall body weight creates too much inertia. At 200
pounds I bounce from bad crashes with little discomfort--but when I
weighed 237 pounds back in January, the same hard crash would
hurt...Too much inertial mass for its own good.

You think too much.

Bill "you're right about cyclists' bone density, however" S.

Chris Phillipo said:

Quoted message said:

I have to disagree. I'm very stocky with a wide, strong chest and
shoulders. Basically I'm built like a brick [censored]. If anyone was
going to avoid a collarbone injury in line with your theory, it would
have been me. Unfortunately my injury was sustained BECAUSE my
substantial weight was behind the point of impact on my shoulder.
Although it didn't break, the pressure and weight caused tendons to rip.
--
Westie

I look like ET and I have only broken my head and a toe 🙂

....Owwwch!
--
Westie

That all depends on how bad is bad. Two places is
bad,mine in 2003 was three and arm was pinned to my chest so there was
no work or riding.

I MTB 2004

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That all depends on how bad is bad. Two places is
bad,mine in 2003 was three and arm was pinned to my chest so there was
no work or riding.

I MTB 2004

Mine was in five pieces. Of course, that paled in view of all my ribs on
the left side were broken in at least two places. Ahh, the memories of
"sleeping" in a recliner for 6 mos.

paladin

Quoted message said:

"Shawn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My broke his collarbone in 2 places yeaterday. What body armor/chest
protector is the best for preventing this?

My view on this is that people who have neglected their upper body
development ( have not been working out in the gym) have a relatively
fragile upper body as this relates to big impacts like crashes--on the
mtb
or road bike.

Just look at a typical roadie racer type, with a Tyrannosaurus Rex type
body--big legs, but no upper body development and tiny vestigial arms and
shoulders. Its no wonder they break their collar bones when they crash.

I think part of this is more than just building up your shoulders---I
think
you need a thick upper torso, meaning dense and wide lats...this way,
when
you take a big impact on your shoulder, as in going over the bars, and
landing on your side and shoulder, impact with the ground pushes your arm
into the dense muscle of your lats and upper torso, preventing the
shoulder
from having to absorb all the impact itself.

Me first, Me first!
You dink! *Mountain* bikers usually have significant upper body
development. Riding in *mountains* requires a lot of upper body
involvement.
When I went OTB at 20 mph while riding in *the mountains* some years back,
and severely separated my shoulder, I had lots of upper body muscle. I
was XC skiing, riding, trail running and lifting. With your logic, if I
was a flat land roadie from someplace like, oh say, Florida! the impact
would have been enough to turn me inside out from right to left. I
respectfully disagree.

Sarcastically Yours,
Shawn

Admit it, your'e really just a closet gay roadie. Just kidding, as I agree
with what you said. DV's argument is pretty lame. I'm no body builder, but
I've been wrestling and boxing full contact, with lots of hard training, for
many years. When I crashed 4 yrs ago, it was more a matter of physics than
muscle. The doctor said the impact was similar to my falling off a 3 story
building onto concrete and landing on my left side. Had to agree with him
there, since nearly everything on my left side broke pretty completely.

paladin

Paladin said:

"Shawn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> My broke his collarbone in 2 places yeaterday. What body armor/chest
> protector is the best for preventing this?
>

My view on this is that people who have neglected their upper body
development ( have not been working out in the gym) have a relatively
fragile upper body as this relates to big impacts like crashes--on the
mtb
or road bike.

Just look at a typical roadie racer type, with a Tyrannosaurus Rex type
body--big legs, but no upper body development and tiny vestigial arms
and
shoulders. Its no wonder they break their collar bones when they crash.

I think part of this is more than just building up your shoulders---I
think
you need a thick upper torso, meaning dense and wide lats...this way,
when
you take a big impact on your shoulder, as in going over the bars, and
landing on your side and shoulder, impact with the ground pushes your
arm
into the dense muscle of your lats and upper torso, preventing the
shoulder
from having to absorb all the impact itself.

Me first, Me first!
You dink! *Mountain* bikers usually have significant upper body
development. Riding in *mountains* requires a lot of upper body
involvement.
When I went OTB at 20 mph while riding in *the mountains* some years
back,
and severely separated my shoulder, I had lots of upper body muscle. I
was XC skiing, riding, trail running and lifting. With your logic, if I
was a flat land roadie from someplace like, oh say, Florida! the impact
would have been enough to turn me inside out from right to left. I
respectfully disagree.

Sarcastically Yours,
Shawn

Admit it, your'e really just a closet gay roadie. Just kidding, as I
agree
with what you said. DV's argument is pretty lame. I'm no body builder,
but
I've been wrestling and boxing full contact, with lots of hard training,
for
many years. When I crashed 4 yrs ago, it was more a matter of physics
than
muscle. The doctor said the impact was similar to my falling off a 3
story
building onto concrete and landing on my left side. Had to agree with
him
there, since nearly everything on my left side broke pretty completely..

paladin

Hey, I use to wrestling and (kick)box. I miss it.

Anyway, if anything, I think us (me) fat porkers have the best chance. I
think all that soft, doughy, plato like tissue does more to cushion than
muscle.
--
Slacker

Slacker said:

Hey, I use to wrestling and (kick)box. I miss it.

Get pile-driven much? 🙂

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if anything, I think us (me) fat porkers have the best
chance. I think all that soft, doughy, plato like tissue does more to
cushion than muscle.

"Plato-like tissue", Gracie?

I'm guessing you scored something good fairly recently.

--
BS (no, really)

B i l l S o r n s o n said:

Slacker said:

Hey, I use to wrestling and (kick)box. I miss it.

Get pile-driven much? 🙂

No, but I did drive a couple of piles this morning. Does that count?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if anything, I think us (me) fat porkers have the best
chance. I think all that soft, doughy, plato like tissue does more to
cushion than muscle.

"Plato-like tissue", Gracie?

I'm guessing you scored something good fairly recently.

:-p After reading what I wrote again, I couldn't stop laughing.

--
Slacker

Slacker said:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:13:32 GMT, B i l l S o r n s o n

Quoted message said:

Slacker said:

Hey, I use to wrestling and (kick)box. I miss it.

Get pile-driven much? 🙂

No, but I did drive a couple of piles this morning. Does that count?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if anything, I think us (me) fat porkers have the best
chance. I think all that soft, doughy, plato like tissue does more to
cushion than muscle.

"Plato-like tissue", Gracie?

I'm guessing you scored something good fairly recently.

:-p After reading what I wrote again, I couldn't stop laughing.

--
Slacker

You guys got me laughing pretty good. The irony of it all was I hung up martial arts fighting/teaching/training/coaching/getting beat up/ for mtnbiking, which has hurt me far more than that malarkey ever did. But I like the mtb a LOT more. Wrestling is a good natured sport, but kickboxing is all about strutting and attitude. And s, which I never bought into. Not the fake ones at least. The scars are my s with better stories.

paladin

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:42:10 +1100, Chris Brown
<[email hidden]> wrote:

The irony of it all was I hung up

Quoted message said:

martial arts fighting/teaching/training/coaching/getting beat up/ for
mtnbiking, which has hurt me far more than that malarkey ever did. But
I like the mtb a LOT more. Wrestling is a good natured sport, but
kickboxing is all about strutting and attitude. And s, which I
never bought into. Not the fake ones at least. The scars are my
s with better stories.

paladin

Yeah, I hung up all that stuff many, many years ago.

I got some good stories about my old dojo, though. Like almost getting my
ass kicked by this dude
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/16/1045330467419.html?oneclick=true
:-(

--
Slacker - once got his ass kicked by a chick (World Champ kickboxer)

Paladin said:

"Shawn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>My broke his collarbone in 2 places yeaterday. What body armor/chest
>protector is the best for preventing this?
>

My view on this is that people who have neglected their upper body
development ( have not been working out in the gym) have a relatively
fragile upper body as this relates to big impacts like crashes--on the
mtb
or road bike.

Just look at a typical roadie racer type, with a Tyrannosaurus Rex type
body--big legs, but no upper body development and tiny vestigial arms and
shoulders. Its no wonder they break their collar bones when they crash.

I think part of this is more than just building up your shoulders---I
think
you need a thick upper torso, meaning dense and wide lats...this way,
when
you take a big impact on your shoulder, as in going over the bars, and
landing on your side and shoulder, impact with the ground pushes your arm
into the dense muscle of your lats and upper torso, preventing the
shoulder
from having to absorb all the impact itself.

Me first, Me first!
You dink! *Mountain* bikers usually have significant upper body
development. Riding in *mountains* requires a lot of upper body
involvement.
When I went OTB at 20 mph while riding in *the mountains* some years back,
and severely separated my shoulder, I had lots of upper body muscle. I
was XC skiing, riding, trail running and lifting. With your logic, if I
was a flat land roadie from someplace like, oh say, Florida! the impact
would have been enough to turn me inside out from right to left. I
respectfully disagree.

Sarcastically Yours,
Shawn

Admit it, your'e really just a closet gay roadie. Just kidding, as I agree
with what you said. DV's argument is pretty lame. I'm no body builder, but
I've been wrestling and boxing full contact, with lots of hard training, for
many years. When I crashed 4 yrs ago, it was more a matter of physics than
muscle. The doctor said the impact was similar to my falling off a 3 story
building onto concrete and landing on my left side. Had to agree with him
there, since nearly everything on my left side broke pretty completely.

Worse, I'm a straight closet roadie. I don't fit in with the roadies
either :-)
Actually, I bought new tires for my road bike this summer, that I've
ridden on twice, and a new saddle 6 weeks ago that I don't remember if
I've installed yet. Road riding around here is so-so in the under 30
mile range and the mountain biking is too good.

Shawn

Shawn