Cost of petrol / Gasoline



swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .

It seems that forums are packed full of "tax payers" that want to invest countless dollars in both taxes and devalued savings [dollars]. Yet... in my rich and full "real life" I never meet such individuals. All the tax payers I know realize how foolishly throwing money away is unaffordable to everyone. The only people I've ever meet [in real life] that want to double-down with tax spending are people who don't actually pay taxes. Or those who believe they can profit from the wastefulness.

Of course... I guess everyone [likes to] think of themselves as tax payers. Since they pay taxes on their cigarettes, beer, gasoline, and sales tax in most states. But [real] tax payers that lay out thousands and thousands [10's of 1000's] every year, of real hard earned [sweat, blood, and long hours over decades] cash money.... really hate to just **** away that wealth.

I've never found it easy to earn money! So forgive me for not wanting to gamble it away for half-baked pie-in-the-sky [old worn out] ideas. If you really think there is profit in your ideas... invest in your ideas and dreams. Even if you lose every cent you have... you'll still be better off than just being an Internet name-calling mooch... wanting to spend the hard earned cash of others. And... maybe you'll be smart and right and I will surely look foolish then.. won't I? You will make millions with solar panels on your roof and a windmill in the back yard. And I will be the foolish old guy that didn't invest in "NEW technologies".

Yeah.... that's the ticket! Use that earned income tax credit to make investment millions. That will show me... and everyone else!
If there wasn't money to be made in wind projects you wouldn't get the likes of Google and Citi investing in it. You wouldn't have Southern California Edison signing a 25 year power purchase agreement for power from the Alta Wind Farm. The Altamont Pass wind warm provides a fair chunk of the power for the San Francisco Bay Area and doesn't do it at a loss.

Years ago people said that hydroelectric power would never really be feasible. Now the largest power plants in the world are hydroelectric facilities. The largest in the US is a hydroelectric facility.

You like to make it seem as though these facts aren't somehow facts but things have progressed a little in the last 20 years ;)

As for gasoline and progress... What is the future for the internal combustion engine powered by gasoline? Refined technology has allowed fun cars such as the Tesla Roadster and more the more mundane Nissan leaf to run on electricity for a fairly respectable range. You won't be driving across country in one any time soon in a hurry but for the average commute the Leaf might be one way to go. There's CNG - which also gets you into the HOV/Carpool lanes in most states. Cheaper fuel, reasonable range,a growing installed base of refueling stations and a reduced commute time in a good number of metropolitan areas. Hydrogen... that'd be an interesting prospect but despite the facts that say that a hydrogen fuel cell will survive any impact that would have killed the occupants of the car, the thought of having a Hindenburg in the trunk does seem to sit too well with most folk. If most folk knew that gasoline was just as deadly and in most cases was in something that really isn't massively strong, they might be a little scared. Hydrogen required a lot of electricity to produce it - something that is the bane of life at the refinery that I work at. We're trying to build a new hydrogen plant, the plans were approved, construction started but a small group of protesters protested and we now have a near $200million plant half built and starting to rust... Doh! But due process is due process and more court dates are in order.

As much as people ***** about the cost of gas, not that many seem willing to give up their personal tank (mid to large SUV or 1/2+ ton truck) but always comment about the $100 required to fill the tank. Fark that - I'd never commute in the old Camaro nor would I want to **** away 91 octane gas in the S2000 because when I drive it keeping it between 6,000 and 9,000rpm is just too much fun and nets about 12mpg - so while the HOV lanes allowed the Prius in them with a single occupant, I snapped up a used one of those (the Gen 2) for $10k. 210,000 miles and still pulling 45mpg at 75 to 80mph during the early morning commute and life is good. Life Dr Who's Tardis it'll seat 4 adults and a kid, with luggage and has been the most reliable car I've ever owned. Still on the original brake pads, rotors and shoes... The only thing requiring anything beyond regular maintenance was the inverter coolant pump and at just over $100 I'm not really complaining about that do it at home, 2 hour fix.

Money needs to be invested in new technologies. If that wasn't the case then we wouldn't be where we are today and we'd still be chasing beasties across wild plains without the aid of spears or knives. At least we wouldn't have to deal with the problems of obesity or Obama care...
 

Dave Cutter

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Jan 15, 2012
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


Just playing with ya bud.

As AlanG pointed out earlier, you seem to have missed the concept of a forum. As I pointed out your facts seem non-existant.

Solar isn't yet ready for prime time on a large scale but if we don't invest in it, it never will be. Wind and hydro electricity is. ;)
Look it isn't that "my facts" have a problem... it's your math. You don't "read math" you "do the math". I've shown enough powerpoint presentations to know there isn't anyway to "teach you" how to grab the math involved here. Some of the smartest people I've known can't grab-hold of simple math concepts.

It's just like training on a bicycle.... you have to pedal you own ass to reap the benifits. Learn the math... do the math... then you'll know. Solar won't do it dude! The scale doesn't matter. Old sun heated surfaces and wind-blown sails have performed work for mankind since man became man.

And... since man learn to do math... we knew the power wasn't there with solar. For YOU to re-learn what bronze age men knew... YOU have to do your own math. I can't make you a better cyclist by training for you... and I can't teach you math by doing your math for you.
 

Dave Cutter

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Jan 15, 2012
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


If there wasn't money to be made in wind projects you wouldn't get the likes of Google and Citi investing in it. You wouldn't have Southern California Edison signing a 25 year power purchase agreement for power from the Alta Wind Farm. The Altamont Pass wind warm provides a fair chunk of the power for the San Francisco Bay Area and doesn't do it at a loss.
[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 205)]So... you don't think that law the Democratic congress passed requiring them to use 20% green energy might have caused that? What... the tax payer not buying you newspapers yet?[/COLOR]

Years ago people said that hydroelectric power would never really be feasible.
[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 255)]Who, where, and when? Ancient people used water power... that's an untrue and nutty statement![/COLOR]


You like to make it seem as though these facts aren't somehow facts but things have progressed a little in the last 20 years ;)
[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 255)]You mean... the sun got brighter?[/COLOR]

As for gasoline and progress... What is the future for the internal combustion engine powered by gasoline? Refined technology has allowed fun cars such as the Tesla Roadster and more the more mundane Nissan leaf to run on electricity for a fairly respectable range. You won't be driving across country in one any time soon in a hurry but for the average commute the Leaf might be one way to go.
[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 255)]I have nothing against the electric car! I've considered buying one in fact (using MY OWN MONEY... BTW).... I like the leaf. But coal powered cars really provide no benefit that I am aware of. [/COLOR]

[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 255)]The future of gasoline powered cars... I don't know. I've never expected cars to always run on gasoline. There was a time when we all thought electric cars were only a "better battery" away. Then President Carter crushed Nuclear Power in America... and with that set back the electric car by decades. Now the current administration is shutting down coal. So... cheap electric is gone... and with it most people plans for depending on electric to power a car.[/COLOR]

[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 255)]I don't know what the future holds! I"ll leave the Psychic predictions you... I don't even know where to buy a Crystal Ball.[/COLOR]

Money needs to be invested in new technologies.
[COLOR= rgb(0, 0, 255)]If you believe that for a minute.... then do it! Reach into your own pocket and invest. You don't want investment... you want spending. [/COLOR]
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Yes, the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans used water power but generating electricity on a mammoth scale via such means wasn't an idea that caught favour. A bit like solar and wind power in the eyes of many today.

The sun got brighter? Maybe in urban areas of California where the smog is a mere fraction of what it used to be due to less use of fossil fuels and better technology allowing us to burn those fuels cleaner and more efficiently (as well as processing the spent gasses via catalysts and filters) it did... But it's that pesky increase in technology again. Same ol' sun - better solar panels too eek more power from the same old mystical glowing disk in the sky.

Using your own money to buy a car? That's a **** idea. I got my fully restored big block 67 Camaro off the tax payers back. I thought every one did that. Who on God's good earth would spend their own money on a car? If I had to do that I wouldn't have 4 sitting in garage/driveway. I then used that ace yellow carpool sticker to save myself $2,500 in bridge tolls over 2 years and about $40 per week in gas cause the Prius got way better gas mileage than hareing around in the S2000...

I don't need to invest in solar and wind personally, there are a great number of "for profit" organizations that are doing it - and some are doing rather well.

FYI: California is required, as of 2020 to generate 33% of it's power from renewable sources. Maybe they should level Turlock and turn it into one massive solar panel - the hookup to the grid is already there. :p
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .


Look it isn't that "my facts" have a problem... it's your math. You don't "read math" you "do the math". I've shown enough powerpoint presentations to know there isn't anyway to "teach you" how to grab the math involved here. Some of the smartest people I've known can't grab-hold of simple math concepts.

It's just like training on a bicycle.... you have to pedal you own ass to reap the benifits. Learn the math... do the math... then you'll know. Solar won't do it dude! The scale doesn't matter. Old sun heated surfaces and wind-blown sails have performed work for mankind since man became man.

And... since man learn to do math... we knew the power wasn't there with solar. For YOU to re-learn what bronze age men knew... YOU have to do your own math. I can't make you a better cyclist by training for you... and I can't teach you math by doing your math for you.
Math... I can do that very well thankyou very much. Let's do a bit of basic math. Comparison. I wouldn't like to confuse you with addition or subtraction at this time of day...

You said that all the solar and wind generators in the world would not equal ONE nuclear power plant.

Lets take the largest nuclear power plant in the US - Palo Verde. Installed capacity of 3,942MW and it generated 29,250GW-h (or 29.25TW-h) anually as of 2011. Impressive numbers.

Wind:

Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrft. There, that's the fart joke out of the way.

Taking the top 10 wind power producing countries in the world you had, as of 2010, an installed capacity of 238,351MW and an actual production of 344.8TW-h. A tad more me thinks... and that number is going to be rising at a steady rate for the next couple of decades, or so it would seem.

So using your thought process a wind generated total of 344 TW-h is less than 29.25TW-h of the largest US nuclear facility. You're right I do need to retake math. Your math is like An Old Guys ability to ride at unrepeatable power levels even by world class riders during interval sessions.

Solar.

Solar power, whose output volume increased year-on-year by 56.4%, must take credit as the most outstanding renewable sector in 2010. Worldwide solar power production leapt to 33.2 TW-h in 2010 - source Worldwide electricity production from renewable energy sources, Thirteenth Inventory - Edition 2011.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 33.2TW-h generated is more than 29.25TW-h, no?

The German solar PV industry installed 7.5 GW in 2011 and solar PV provided 18 TWh of electricity in 2011, about 3% of total electricity. On midday of Saturday May 26, 2012, solar energy provided 40% of total electricity consumption in Germany, campared to 20% for the whole 24h-day. The federal government has set a target of 66 GW of installed solar PV capacity by 2030,to be reached with an annual increase of 2.5–3.5 GW... Mind you, this is in a country that's not even considered to be very sunny at all. I spent 4 weeks there during the middle of 1996 and it ****** down rain nearly every day.

So.. in summary. Wind power eclipses a nuclear power station by a country mile and the solar power generated by a dull and over cast country is about that of the largest nuclear power plant in the US.

... and yes, the one paragraph about me getting cars on the tax payers dime was a joke, I used my own money... Just don't tell Dave that. *wink*
 

jpr95

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Oct 11, 2010
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Ok, now compare cost per GWh and land use per GWh. If you're really good at math, you could even factor in the cost of lost productivity of the land taken up by wind, hydro and solar as compared to nuclear.

Again, I seriously doubt that ANY wind "farm" is even remotely profitable. California has a shortage in its power supply due to government regulation, which drives the price up (yes, making wind more attractive), but I guarantee that every wind turbine is getting a subsidy that makes it appear profitable.

If I paint a house (my profession) for $5000, but have costs of $6000, then get a government subsidy of $2000, is my profit $1000? NO! Subsidy is NOT profit. Until our comrade leaders get that figured out, we're headed for economic bubble after economic bubble until the whole balloon bursts.
 

Dave Cutter

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Jan 15, 2012
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .

....... an installed capacity
An there's the punch line.... hidden in the middle of the math. The lie that makes it all crapola. My yard has the CAPACITY... to grow enough veggies to feed a city (If I lived in a communist nation it would feed even more). But...... you'd get really hungry eating those "capacity vegetables" and you'll be eating them in the dark waiting for that "capacity electric" to light your dining room as well.

We had a very long power outage here a few years back. You remind me of the guy that wanted to run 300 feet of extension cord from my generator to his refrigerator. There was just no way he could understand why that couldn't be done... because he knew my generator had the "capacity" to produce enough power.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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... and that Dave, was the reason that I also included the amount of electricity in TW-h that was actually generated. ;)

jpr,

Subsidies are a great way to push new (or seldom used) technology. They did it was the Prius in California with incentives to allow Carpool lane access and free bridge tolls, with just the driver in the car. The program was a sucess. Now they're continuing that program for the CNG cars and including massive tax incentives and rebates. Thinking short term is, well, short sighted.

If you have a ton of land, why not make use of it for something? Why leave it sitting there looking brown and barren when you can have it looking brown and barren with a big wind generator on it? Same deal with solar in the sunnier climes.

If there's a big earthquake in Cali, noone is really going to cry over a few windtubines that fall over. If the nuclear plant at SLO in Cali decides to take a dump during a quake then it likely not going to be pretty...
 

jpr95

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Oct 11, 2010
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Except that subsidies never end. We've been subsidizing solar for 30+ years, and the price hasn't changed much. There are probably 1000 or more wind turbines within 20 miles of my house. Many of those are on some of the best farmland in the world (northern Tippecanoe County, White County and Benton County in Indiana--flat, with incredibly rich dirt). That's the stupidity of subsidies. Sure, each one doesn't have a huge footprint, but they add up.

The Chevy Volt? That wonderful electric car? Hmm...$7500 government credit (not deduction) on a car whose average purchaser makes $170k per year, and is buying it as a bonus vehicle (toy), not a daily driver. Fisker? How many people drive a $100k car? Maybe the Nissan Leaf has a shot, but it's still subsidized (I think there's a tax credit), overpriced and not practical for most families.

Again, "green" subsidies are just corporate welfare of a different color. That's it, nothing more. Let the market work. Personally, I think the key is to have devices that are multi-fuel so that if there's a spike in price of one type of fuel, another can be used, helping to keep that spike down.
 

danfoz

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Apr 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by jpr95 .

Again, "green" subsidies are just corporate welfare of a different color. That's it, nothing more. Let the market work.
Occasionally corporate welfare can be a good thing. Think of the aviation and computer industries without it. Doubtful any of us would be using PC's or taking transatlantic flights to see our favorite grand tours in person without it. One of those industries is responsible for the employment of tens (hundreds?) of millions via it's multitude of channels (hardware, software, support, and training). The selection of those companies however is an entirely different argument.
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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You know that farmers can grow produce on land that is in close proximity to even the largest wind turbines, right? Just like with residential solar, some farmers chose to "net meter" smaller turbine installations so that power generated in excess of what they use is sold back to the grid. From watching a program on the Discovery Channel a while back, some farmers in Iowa have the very large turbines on their farms and grow crops around them. A win-win for the farmers - they still get to grow crops and earn money from having turbines on their land, something that could be doubly beneficial in years where crops fail... In States like California, getting new fossil fuel or nuclear power plants built would be an extremely long and drawn out process. All it would take is one small environmental group to protest construction and the whole project would be shut down. While a wind farm does take up much more space than a traditional power plant, California is hardly short of wind or land. With regard to traditional power, California should be renamed the State of Nimby (not in my back yard) so maybe Brown was wise to sign a bill stating that at least 30% of the power produced in the State be from renewable energy. Given the potential for returns and the current offers available, it's not surprising to see companies like Google investing $100million+ in renewable energy. The real issue is that without crude oil there'll be no base product to make carbon fiber bikes and the main source of sulphur ( a by-product of oil refining) which is an major component for a lot of women's makeup, will be non-existant or rare and very expensive. Reduce fossil fuel use so there's less of a need for oil. Priorities lads, priorities...
 

alienator

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Jun 10, 2004
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There's a load of BS in this thread about what can't be profitable and what can. Objectivity is not in evidence. Classes should be given on what are and are not facts and how to actually find them. Gas is expensive. Tough titty, America.
 

jpr95

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Oct 11, 2010
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Well, that clears it up. I'm glad God came down from heaven and told us to suck it up!
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Come on Dave - where's the math? I was expecting oodles of data with supporting evidence to show that a single nuclear power plant (as built - feel free to choose one) can generate more electricity that all the wind and solar installations world wide as you claimed. Facts. Math. Answers. Opinions, not so interested in until you back up your claim. I expect by the time that you do produce such data, China would have another 10,000MW from the wind turbines they have built but not on grid yet, connected and online. ;)
 

alienator

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Jun 10, 2004
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jpr95 said:
Well, that clears it up.  I'm glad God came down from heaven and told us to suck it up!
Considering you've offered nothing objective, it needed clearing up. This will help you: How to Think and Fact. Your opinion isn't proof of anything.
 

jpr95

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Oct 11, 2010
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Originally Posted by alienator .


Considering you've offered nothing objective, it needed clearing up. This will help you: How to Think and Fact. Your opinion isn't proof of anything.
Feel free to point out the subjectivity and lack of objectivity, point by point. Otherwise, the first sentence above is just, uhh, OPINION, and not critical thinking (itself a fairly subjective concept).
 

Dave Cutter

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Jan 15, 2012
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I fall for this almost every-time. Google "facts" that show the Earth is dieing [killed by evil mankind] and Al Gore is a true Savior of the only and true being... Mother Earth. Or [on-line] stats form 3rd world communist nations... like that's data (for Pete's sake). Your faith effects the way you understand what you read. You truly want to believe... and so you do.

If you have a child that enjoys hurting small animals.... even the dumbest parents know to find that child some help. And when you know adults that find pleasure it the hurt and suffering of other humans... particularly humans they don't even know... you need to speak up. As a grown-up, adult, we need to tell you people that enjoy the idea of humans suffering from high energy prices and fuel shortages... you have a problem. I hope you find peace with those feelings.

I respect your beliefs and defend you rights to worship... even Al Gore himself... if that is what you're disposed to believe. I don't even care if you want to say environmentalism isn't a religion. But of course it is... even High Priest Gore admits that much when he asked his "believers to remain faithful". But there isn't any reason why we can't all be civil.
 

dhk2

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Aug 8, 2006
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .


An there's the punch line.... hidden in the middle of the math. The lie that makes it all crapola. My yard has the CAPACITY... to grow enough veggies to feed a city (If I lived in a communist nation it would feed even more). But...... you'd get really hungry eating those "capacity vegetables" and you'll be eating them in the dark waiting for that "capacity electric" to light your dining room as well.

We had a very long power outage here a few years back. You remind me of the guy that wanted to run 300 feet of extension cord from my generator to his refrigerator. There was just no way he could understand why that couldn't be done... because he knew my generator had the "capacity" to produce enough power.
Dave, sorry to be so dumb, but can you explain to me why your neighbor couldn't run a 300 ft extension cord to your generator to power his refrigerator?
 

Dave Cutter

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Jan 15, 2012
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Originally Posted by dhk2 .

Dave, sorry to be so dumb, but can you explain to me why your neighbor couldn't run a 300 ft extension cord to your generator to power his refrigerator?
Because vibrating those electrons generate heat. A refrigerator will cause a typical extension cord cord to catch fire... or just melt. The extension cord gauge of wire required to run really long lengths isn't available. I have one very short 10 gauge cord I use. BUT MY GENERATOR HAS THE CAPACITY TO RUN SEVERAL REFRIGERATORS! Heck... in China... I'd guess I could run nearly 10,000 refrigerators.

But this whole thread isn't about science, or how things work, or facts. It is about believing in a concept and having faith that it will work. And... of course.... betting other peoples money that it will. Or maybe it's really about political kick-backs and corruption... and old fashion stealing. It's hard to say/guess.
 

dhk2

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Aug 8, 2006
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OK, thanks for clearing that up. The issue then was that your neighbor didn't have an adequate wire size to allow for sufficient starting amperage/voltage over 300ft. Totally agree with your position based on Ohm's law and the starting-current requirements of the compressor motor. Perhaps by telling this story you meant to illustrate how the average person doesn't have a grasp of the fundementals of electrical engineering. Again, agree with your assessment there.

What I believe in? Clean coal....that's america's answer since we've got enough to last centuries. Plus, I "Vote4Energy".....all we need is a president who'll drop the restrictions to drilling and mining in this country and we'd have plenty. Promising news is that the newest BP well in our beautiful Gulf, approved last fall after about a year of being shut out from new drilling due to their little "boo-boo", is now producing in 6500 ft of water.

Other promising news....the Forest Service and BLM has just proposed opening up vast parts of Alabama's National Forest lands to oil and gas and mineral extraction. Some state senator (GOP) has complained about threats to conservation in the wild river watersheds, but I'm sure he'll see the light once he's instructed on how much tax revenues the state can gain while being treated to the fine hospitality of the energy lobbyists. Most of his GOP brethen apparently have a greater grasp of the facts here than he does.