Cost of petrol / Gasoline

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .

I fall for this almost every-time. Google "facts" that show the Earth is dieing [killed by evil mankind] and Al Gore is a true Savior of the only and true being... Mother Earth. Or [on-line] stats form 3rd world communist nations... like that's data (for Pete's sake). Your faith effects the way you understand what you read. You truly want to believe... and so you do.

When you work for a company that licenses key refining and "renewable engery" technologies to companies in various parts of Asia you get some idea of the scope of what's being done. When that "scope" fits with the numbers that are being put forth then you can expect that there's at least a little bit of truth to them. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

 

[Dave Cutter]

Originally Posted by dhk2 .

..... Totally agree with your position based on Ohm's law and the starting-current requirements of the compressor motor. Perhaps by telling this story you meant to illustrate how the average person doesn't have a grasp of the fundementals of electrical engineering. Again, agree with your assessment there.

Thanks! I thought the democrat congress repealed Ohm's law... so they could build the smart grid. [just more humor]

 

[swampy1970]

Actually it was the Republicans that banned Ohms law. They said that the "ohmmmmm" noise during yoga in hippy places like Berkeley was just un-American and passed a new addition to current Homeland Security laws brandishing people that do this a terrorist because yoga is also un-American.

Dave, I'm surprised that, given your comments thus far, that you don't have a small oil fired power station complete with a small oil well and a basic distillation column....

 

[emalcon]

I saved myself probably $100/mo by switching to cycling to work. And I get there faster too!

...though I doubt that would be true for everyone.

 

[jpr95]

Originally Posted by emalcon .

I saved myself probably $100/mo by switching to cycling to work. And I get there faster too!

...though I doubt that would be true for everyone.

Being a contractor, it would take me all day on my bike just to get my tools to the jobsite.

I bet that if I had a 20 mile round trip to work and back that there wouldn't be any actual savings. Anything I would save in gas, I would probably lose by having to eat more.

 

[Dave Cutter]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .
Dave, I'm surprised that, given your comments thus far, that you don't have a small oil fired power station complete with a small oil well and a basic distillation column....

You have no idea! You apparently didn't read any of MY posts. I live one of the greenest lifestyles of anyone you'll ever meet. I use less energy in a year than the average person uses in a month. When most people just discovered the compact fluorescent bulbs... I was already using LED. I always choose to live close to work [or work close to where I wanted to live]... often a gallon of gasoline will last BOTH my wife and I for a week. I bought my first windmill in the late 70's... and I've tried solar panels. I am not quoting a targeted google search .... I live what I speak.

What makes me Conservative.... is I spend my own money.


I think it's GREAT you have some high-minded ideas about what could be (if that is the truth). But it's time to grow up and be a man [or woman] and pay for your own stuff. The current green (scam) movement is simply a money grab.

 

[dhk2]

Dave, sounds like you indeed live the green lifestyle. You'll be happy to know that several retired military guys on my street are doing the same thing, although they tend to be right-leaning Fox news suckers all the way. Three have Prius', one Nissan Leaf, one Lincoln hybrid. Two of them bristled when I said they are helping the environment, claiming they only have these vehicles for the cost-savings because the environment doesn't need any help....global warming is just all Al Gore nonsense, and saving oil resources for the future is dumb because there are plenty right here if only Obama would approve more drilling.

I've told them both that I think they are wrong, but that what they believe doesn't matter because they are helping conserve for the future anyway. Just strange to me how they think being selfish is such a virtue, like they are insulted when I mention helping the future for their kids and grandkids. As I said, doesn't matter to me, as long as they are part of the solution.

 

[Dave Cutter]

Originally Posted by dhk2 .

..... Two of them bristled when I said they are helping the environment, claiming they only have these vehicles for the cost-savings because the environment doesn't need any help....global warming is just all Al Gore nonsense, and saving oil resources for the future is dumb because there are plenty right here if only Obama would approve more drilling.

I've told them both that I think they are wrong,

Well certainly... old, well educated, well read, and world traveled professionals, certainly can't know as much as YOU do... could they. Petrol chemicals... seem to be the most plentiful resources in the universe. The new finds on other planets are both astonishing... and enlightening. But of course... someone as smart as YOU would certainly already know all about decay rates of iron and other minerals and what that means to the future of humans on Earth. Or maybe... NOT.

When I was a child... we watched cartoons and read comics... just like children do now. The difference is we could tell childish entertainment from actual fact. I don't claim to have great insight as to why so many adults have taken their beliefs in [and childish fears of] the environment into adulthood... but they have. Environmentalism is a new (and growing) religion... even Al Gore has recognized that... and has asked his followers to "keep the faith" when faced with science facts.

I don't post because I object to your religion... I don't. You have every right to be an environmentalist... and I respect your beliefs. I have my own religious beliefs.... and I ask you also respect mine. And let us not refer to ethers as truth, or fact, or science... just because of our feelings about them.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .


You have no idea! You apparently didn't read any of MY posts. I live one of the greenest lifestyles of anyone you'll ever meet. I use less energy in a year than the average person uses in a month. When most people just discovered the compact fluorescent bulbs... I was already using LED. I always choose to live close to work [or work close to where I wanted to live]... often a gallon of gasoline will last BOTH my wife and I for a week. I bought my first windmill in the late 70's... and I've tried solar panels. I am not quoting a targeted google search .... I live what I speak.

What makes me Conservative.... is I spend my own money.


I think it's GREAT you have some high-minded ideas about what could be (if that is the truth). But it's time to grow up and be a man [or woman] and pay for your own stuff. The current green (scam) movement is simply a money grab.

If you're silly enough to not take advantage of 'energy incentive' rebates then that's your problem. Fail to dip from the money pot and someone else will. You've paid for it already in the form of taxes so not taking it back is just dumb - and that's why we got our new high efficiency HVAC early on in the year because the rebate "money pot" was still full. Get the best on the market for the price of average. A few years before that, same deal with replacing all the windows in the house. Get the best and get almost $5,000 back. Whole house fans... same deal. Refrigerator... you get the idea.

But your thinking that we need to use fossil fuels because it's cheap technology that we already have isn't entirely correct. Do you fail to realise that despite not having built a new refinery in the US that most of the refineries in the US have been updated piece by piece during that 30 years to incorporate the latest and greatest 'new' technology it increase safety, product quality and quantity and well, profit, and they have taken advantage of tax benefits in order to do so... Think about that, it's like they're milking a similar rebate "money pot" to develop and implement that new technology...

... which leaves you, being the only one not cashing in, Mr "I Spend My Own Money."

Do you think the likes of Shell or Chevron pay for all their own R&D that brings new technologies in their chosen fields? If you thought that they did then you're mistaken. They don't so much skim the top of the government funding pot - they insert a massive pump to grab as much as possible and I wouldn't be to surprised if they got more governement funding than the solar and wind folk combined.

Someone has to fund new technology. If the private sector doesn't think there's enough of an initial incentive and the government wants that technology in place then some "carrot" needs to be put forth. Then you have the issues like those facing California - you need more power but the chances of getting a new power plant build is zero to none - even if State law said a buggering great big coal powerstation was OK to build. NIMBY's across the state would kybosh that plan during the first planning meeting.

The funny thing is, the last time I checked, the neighbors, the state, or the government didn't pay for all my stuff

I personally couldn't give two hoots whether you're a Conservative. Why you put that in bold I have no idea but I'll leave you to go back to your energy efficient hand crank generator to power your 2.5" TV.

 

[dhk2]

Dave, my Fox-news neighbors don't know as much as I do because I'm older, better-educated, better-traveled and better-informed than they are.....why would you assume I'm not? One of them told me he doesn't read the local newspaper because it's too liberal....owned by some liberal syndicate who owns the NYT......which it certainly is not. It's amazing what kind of "convenient truths" he makes up to justify his ignorance. All nation media except Fox is biased, including NPR, BBC World News, the local NPR stations because they are run by universities. When I mention an article in Scientific American, that's quickly discounted because all the scientists and physicists are just out to make a name for themselves and get grant money.

Religion and science do seem to be pretty mixed up here in the South. The most out-spoken anti-environmentals around here seem to be good church-going Baptists. In discussions with a couple of them, I've found that apparently they believe that we were put here dominate the Earth, to consume as much of the Earth's resources as we need, and that God will provide natural limits if he sees fit to rein us in. But all that's sometime in the distant future, since we've got all the fossil-fuel energy and resources we need.

I do confess to being a conservative, as in a long-time member of the Nature Conservancy as well as the local organization that protects the in-town hiking and mtn biking trails that I use and enjoy so much. As a cyclist and hiker who enjoys the outdoors, seems to me support for these groups isn't an "environmental" or "green" thing, just donations I pay to protect my selfish recreational interests. Ditto for road taxes which improve and maintain roads, bike lanes and bike paths.....I'm all for these as well as long as the money is used wisely to make cycling safer and more fun.

Tax incentives, yep, I took advantage of a $1700 federal tax credit when I bought my Golf TDI diesel in 2010. Hey, I wanted one anyway......guess I'm just not a Prius type.

 

[Dave Cutter]

Glad to read you're both taking the tax credits. And just who do you think is paying for that credit? Some would say.. the Government... others may say the tax-payer.. Of course that's just silly.. the Government doesn't collect nearly as much money as it is spending. The tax credit came to you via the digital printing press. Congrads on that one... you should be so proud... I am sure your kids will be. After all... it's their money isn't it. If they ask why you did that... tell them "all the other adults were doing it"... and explain how it would be different [for them] if "all the other kids are huffing paint". How could following the crowd [mob?] ever go wrong?

Fossil fuels... an interesting term. Of course used in the way the environmental religious use the term fossil fuel... I guess it still has meaning... even 400 years after the term was coined. In scientific terms... it's an odd term used to mean "coal". Petrol fuels, of course are found everywhere in the solar system... and have nothing to do with fossils.

I admire the faith you guys have! True... I am not a follower of Al Gore... nor do I worship the old original religion. But faith is an admirable quality of all religions... and I truly respect your faith. I hope it brings you peace... and even a little joy.

 

[dhk2]

Dave, every penny I've ever made in the last 40 years has come from the good old american taxpayer, so taking tax credits when offered doesn't bother me a bit. Energy credits, cap gains breaks, Bush tax cuts....yep, love them all. Only thing that's more important to the future of our nation than continued low tax rates is a balanced budget.

You sound as if "fossil fuels" is an offensive term; I didn't intend it to be. Didn't realize it was somehow loaded with meaning for you. The terms coal and oil work fine for me....they're all just hydrocarbon fuels like the stuff we put in our bodies so we can ride our bikes. There are a few genuine conservationists in our local bike club, you know, the kind of person that never drives anywhere when they can ride. They commute to work, ride their bike on errands,to monthly club meets at night, even "riding to the ride". I never do any of that stuff; always drive the car.

Not sure what "faith" you keep talking about that you imply swampy and I have. I certainly have no conventional religious faith, so I don't understand what "faith" that you think I have which is worthy of respect. I don't worship Al Gore, President Obama, the Sierra Club, Greenpeace or even Lance Armstrong. Seriously, I'm interested in your thought pattern here.....what "faith" do I have, and how can you tell?

 

[Dave Cutter]

Originally Posted by dhk2 .

You sound as if "fossil fuels" is an offensive term; I didn't intend it to be. Didn't realize it was somehow loaded with meaning for you.

Not sure what "faith" you keep talking about that you imply swampy and I have. I certainly have no conventional religious faith, so I don't understand what "faith" that you think I have which is worthy of respect. I don't worship................... Seriously, I'm interested in your thought pattern here.....what "faith" do I have, and how can you tell?

Fossil fuel... is an ancient term for coal. But like many other words it has also has other meanings. It is [also] a religious term used by environmentalists. You also used terms like "think"... (without explaining your supportive thought). That is common for people who want to avoid the words "feel" or "believe". But using an encrypted word or two... doesn't conceal what you're actually writing. It is right there in (digital) black and white. You should [maybe] deconstruct some of your own posts (to see what I mean).

Religion is selective... but not completely. The human mind is somewhat predisposed to believe... people seem [as if] programed to the find meaning in something greater than themselves. "No conventional religious faith"? Well... whatever you say. I would most certainly call environmentalism... "conventional" (and you DO speak the language). Al Gore is MOST CERTAINLY a leader in environmentalism... and has openly stated that environmentalism must be accepted on faith... NOT science. By definition... that makes it a religion. Sure popularity in it's belief has fallen, and it would seem that [like many new religions] it will sooner or later fade away. But you keep believing! You're not doing anyone any harm with your belief... don't let anyone talk you out of it.

I have no desire to convert you. Nor would I ever criticize your beliefs.

 

[dhk2]

Dave, had no idea I was an environmentalist, but I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks, and thanks for not trying to "convert me" or criticize my believes.....glad you have no desire to do that. As we say in the South, bless your heart.

 

[limerickman]

Petrol/diesel prices at the pump hit €1.68 per gallon a couple of months back, here in Ireland.

Prices have dropped in recent weeks to €1.48pg (for diesel) and €1.55pg (for petrol).
Consumption rates for both fuels have dropped by on average 20% since the onset of the economic recession.
This drop is due to less economic activity and consumption elasticity with the imposition of carbon taxes which have increased the price of fuels.

 

[dhk2]

Originally Posted by limerickman .

Petrol/diesel prices at the pump hit €1.68 per gallon a couple of months back, here in Ireland.

Prices have dropped in recent weeks to €1.48pg (for diesel) and €1.55pg (for petrol).
Consumption rates for both fuels have dropped by on average 20% since the onset of the economic recession.
This drop is due to less economic activity and consumption elasticity with the imposition of carbon taxes which have increased the price of fuels.

Aren't you quoting the prices per liter, not gallons?

 

[Dave Cutter]

Originally Posted by dhk2 .

....... thanks for not trying to "convert me" or criticize my believes.....glad you have no desire to do that.

No need to thank me! Please... just show me the same respect.

I won't ask you to contribute your hard earned cash to my church... and you contribute to your religion using (only) your own money. If you environmentalists feel you need more money... to build windmills or buy coal powered [electric] cars or something.... have some bake sales or something. Maybe have a bingo night!

I don't object to your beliefs. But asking for Americans to support any religious belief via tax dollars is wrong.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .



Fossil fuel... is an ancient term for coal. But like many other words it has also has other meanings. It is [also] a religious term used by environmentalists. You also used terms like "think"... (without explaining your supportive thought). That is common for people who want to avoid the words "feel" or "believe". But using an encrypted word or two... doesn't conceal what you're actually writing. It is right there in (digital) black and white. You should [maybe] deconstruct some of your own posts (to see what I mean).

Religion is selective... but not completely. The human mind is somewhat predisposed to believe... people seem [as if] programed to the find meaning in something greater than themselves. "No conventional religious faith"? Well... whatever you say. I would most certainly call environmentalism... "conventional" (and you DO speak the language). Al Gore is MOST CERTAINLY a leader in environmentalism... and has openly stated that environmentalism must be accepted on faith... NOT science. By definition... that makes it a religion. Sure popularity in it's belief has fallen, and it would seem that [like many new religions] it will sooner or later fade away. But you keep believing! You're not doing anyone any harm with your belief... don't let anyone talk you out of it.

I have no desire to convert you. Nor would I ever criticize your beliefs.

I love it when people somehow drag religion into topics like this. Hmmm, Jesus was nailed to a cross to beget my 502ci (that's 8.2L) V8 that was designed apparently by satanic forces hell bent of poluting the earth...

... that said, the wideband O2 that I have hooked up to the old beast confirms that good combustion is being achieved.

Fossil fuel is a term that includes not only coal but other suspects like oil and natural gas.

Religion has to be accepted on faith, envirnomentalism, at least the true intent of it, doesn't. When it's devolved by people who turn upto mass protests where many show up in vehicles like a 1972 VW camper beltching burning oil out of the back its meaning is somewhat confused. At a basic level environmentalism is simple. Does doing 'activity x' harm the environment? yes/no? Some things are worth more than a price tag that's placed upon them. Case in point - we could build a bunch of coal fired power station in California to get 'cheap power' however, with the constant barage of wind that we get off the Pacific it'd be a wiser choice to throw up a few thousand more wind generators... It negates the need to dig massive holes in the ground and cover Yosemite in acid rain and smog.

... and Dave, I'm still waiting for your math that proves that one nuclear power station, even the biggest nuclear power station in the world, produces more electricity or even has a theoretical capacity to produce more electricity than all the solar and wind installations combined. Fact > opinion... Bring the facts.

Would I consider myself an environmentalist? No. It just so happens that some of my choices might seem that I am but at the end of the day I'm a little more concerned with my bank balance. However, I wouldn't purposely drive a smoke beltching sh1t heap on 4 wheels to save money. It just so happens that all the energy saving mods done to the house and the need for an honest 45+mpg (US gallons - not real gallons) car might seem up in yo' face environmentalist but in reality it's anything but.

 

[Dave Cutter]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


I love it when people somehow drag religion into topics like this.

Fossil fuel is a term that includes not only coal but other suspects like oil and natural gas.

Religion has to be accepted on faith, environmentalism, at least the true intent of it, doesn't.

Environmentalism IS a religion... I don't define the words... I didn't and DON'T (normally) discuss religion on forums. YOU brought the religion (environmentalism) onto the forum.

I have YET to know of anyone who ever found a fossil... in natural gas. The term comes from the 1600's because so many fossils could be found in coal. Fossil fuel was meant to be a term that covered all the different names (and grades) for coal. Only the faithful religious call gas and oil fossil fuels.

Wow.... I am impressed that you have more sway and status in the environmental circles than Al Gore! Al says environmentalism must be accepted on faith.... but Mr Swampy knows better? I haven't seen your movie(s) or read of your awards in the movement... yet. I think I'll go with Al Gores idea! Just until you are also recognized as an leader in the religion... like Mr Gore.

 

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter .

I have YET to know of anyone who ever found a fossil... in natural gas. The term comes from the 1600's because so many fossils could be found in coal. Fossil fuel was meant to be a term that covered all the different names (and grades) for coal. Only the faithful religious call gas and oil fossil fuels.

I found parts of a fossilized giant sequoia stuck in my natural gas line just last week. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif If it is not from decaying plants and animals, where did this gas come from? Did god create it? Wouldn't that be religious?

BTW, the price of petrol had been coming down lately.