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Crank problem

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rec.sport.unicycling
Published
18 May 2005
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20 May 2005
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cathwood
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  1. HI,
    I wonder if anyone can help.
    I had my cranks changed at bike shop on saturday. They have come loose
    aprox 4 times since then (searches have suggested that this could be
    normal), the uni creaks a bit (may be related to when the cranks are
    coming loose) but also there is a slight difference between the cranks
    and the bearings on the left and right sides. Is this OK? Or is my uni
    about to collapse in a heap?
    Help, thanks,
    Cathy

    --
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  2. cathwood said:

    *HI,
    I wonder if anyone can help.
    I had my cranks changed at bike shop on saturday. They have come loose
    aprox 4 times since then (searches have suggested that this could be
    normal), the uni creaks a bit (may be related to when the cranks are
    coming loose) but also there is a slight difference between the cranks
    and the bearings on the left and right sides. Is this OK? Or is my uni
    about to collapse in a heap?
    Help, thanks,
    Cathy *

    This may sound unconventional but it has worked for me in the past on
    cranks that just don't want to stay tight.
    Take the cranks off, remove the pedals too. and put the arms in the oven
    set to 400deg (f) for about 20 mins. install them while they are still
    hot and tighten down the nuts quickly, then cool them off with water
    before the heat soaks into the axle. Install one side. cool it off, then
    do the same on the other side.
    I had a set of cranks that wouldnt stay tight for more than a 1/2 hour
    of riding before I tried this, after they stayed tight for a year when i
    decided to change them out they were still tight.
    It will blister the paint on black cranks, but doesn't effect chrome
    ones,

    The left and right crank not having the same spacing could be where the
    chain ring would mount on a BMX bike's right pedal. they sometimes use
    the same pedals on unis just without the chain sprocket.

    Al

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  3. Put grease on the tapers and the cranks.

    --
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  4. In my experience, don't put grease on the tapers! Yes i know this is
    typical of asking any group of 'experts' a question, for unis with
    splines adding grease helps fill the tiny gap and stop movement, and the
    slip of the grease doesnt matter because the splines are not using any
    kind of taper. With square taper the friction between the taper and the
    crank is vital to keep the crank in place, grease will not help this.

    The most obvious answer is, clean the threads of both the stud and nut
    or bolt and tapped hole (depending on which you have) with white
    spirit/meths/surgical spirit, allow to air dry and the apply a liberal
    dosing of locktite to the treads and tighten. There are various grades
    of locktite, use one of the higher ones, i think 262 is the one to use.
    This should stop the nuts ever coming loose, mayb this could be used in
    conjucting with the heating method described, i've never heard it used
    on cranks but it's certainly standard practice for mini racing clutchs,
    which affix by a taper. If you do this let everything go cool before
    locktiting as heat will destroy it, maybe do the process as described,
    let cool and then remove the nut/bolt for locktiting.

    Dqave

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  5. Hey, I'm having a similar problem with my old and beaten miyatta. Keep
    me posted on any progress.

    --
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  6. kington99 said:

    With square taper the friction between the taper and the
    crank is vital to keep the crank in place, grease will not help this.

    I disagree. It's not the friction that vital to keep the crank in
    place, it's the matching shape of the square taper and the square
    hole. Therefore, having the crank very tight on the taper is the main
    thing, and grease helps to achieve that. Also put grease on the thread
    where the nut will go on.

    There is a nice crank installation manual by John Childs, hidden
    somewhere behind the search button. I couldn't find it in the time I
    alotted myself. And I didn't spot a link on his megalist either.

    Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict
    --
    wouldnt you be grumpy if somone just said you had PMS? - jagur

  7. Here are two previous threads on installing cranks:
    'Cranks (yet more)' (http://tinyurl.com/6yflv)
    'crank falls off' (http://tinyurl.com/by3n2)

    And one thread on what I think causes the cranks to get loose:
    'need some new cranks' (http://tinyurl.com/98ovx)

    The three things that make sure your cranks get on tight and stay
    tight
    A little bit of grease on the tapers
    Loctite on the threads
    A torque wrench to tighten it all up

    That's the trick. No more loose cranks.
    If your cranks get loose after doing all that then you've got either a
    damaged crank or a damaged hub.

    I should link to one of those threads in my bookmark list. 🙂

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  8. cathwood said:

    *HI,
    I wonder if anyone can help.
    I had my cranks changed at bike shop on saturday. They have come loose
    aprox 4 times since then (searches have suggested that this could be
    normal), the uni creaks a bit (may be related to when the cranks are
    coming loose) but also there is a slight difference between the cranks
    and the bearings on the left and right sides. Is this OK? Or is my uni
    about to collapse in a heap?
    Help, thanks,
    Cathy *

    It is possible that one of the bearings has slipped a little bit. The
    bearings are only press fit on the hub. There is nothing but friction
    keeping them in place. Sometimes that friction isn't enough to hold
    them so they slip.

    You can try pressing the bearing back on and see if it will stay. Pull
    the cranks off and then use a short piece of pipe with about a 18-20 mm
    inside diameter to press the bearing back on. Some seatpost like the
    Miyata seatposts have the perfect ID for that.

    If the bearing slips again then Loctite the suckers in place with
    Loctite Sleeve Retainer. See this thread: 'moving my bearing'
    (http://tinyurl.com/8l7u6).

    --
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  9. Oh my goodness,
    This is getting more and more complicated.
    Have taken the uni back to the bike shop and given exact insturctions
    (as per this forum) for putting the cranks back on.
    Sounds like I need to become a unicycle expert as well as riding the
    thing.
    So if putting the cranks back on again still doesn't sort out the
    problem, does this mean that I have a knackered hub and would neet to
    replace it?
    I wonder if it's time to get a new unicycle?
    (Oh my god, how girly is that!)
    Cathy

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  10. Howdy! I'm gaving a similar problem to Cathwood so have joined in.

    I got a 24" with 90mm cranks that I commute on and the left crank keeps
    coming loose/off.

    I put it on with a torque wrench and tightened it to 60lb/ft and it
    still comes loose!

    I think its maybe cos the cranks are so wee, they'll be taking loads of
    pressure.

    Had to stop at bikeshop on way to work yesterday to tighten it so's I
    could get to work on time, and then I had to walk home cos it was loose
    again!

    Bikeshop recommended locktite.

    I'm gonna try grease on the crank arms first, cos I'v got grease!

    If that don't work I'll invest in some locktite.

    T.

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  11. Actually shorter cranks take less torque than longer ones because your
    body force is the same but the effective distance between your point of
    force and the centre of rotation is shorter, that's why its harder to
    climb hills or stop/start quickle on shorter cranks.

    Dave

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  12. If you want your cranck to go on and off easy use grease.
    If you want it to keep them tight, don't (same for pedals).
    Ever wondered why cranck nuts/bolts are having this extra grip on the
    inside?

    Grease is not gonne help in applieng a stronger force.
    Also, ever wondered why almost all proffesional bike mechanics use a
    controlled key? (answer: because too strong forces are demolishing the
    ax/hub).
    So yes, the square shapes should fit together. If they don't, they
    don't.

    --
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  13. When I first got my uni I took it to the bike shop and had the same
    problem. When I took it back loose again they used a pneumatic impact
    driver. DUH!! Fortunately they just ruined the threads on the bolts and
    not the hub. Some of them just don't know. Grease allows the crank to
    move further onto the taper and anti seize on the bolt allows it to get
    much tighter without damaging threads. Some say loctite on the threads.
    Grease anti seize worked for me.

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  14. What evryone seens to agree on here is, that to get cranks to stay on
    the axle they need to pressed as far as possible onto the square taper.
    My suggestion of using heat is to expand the crank arm, making the hole
    larger in diameter than the shaft it is being pressed against, then when
    cooled it shrinks making the fit even tighter. This will get them much
    tighter than just using the torque applied to the nuts ever will.

    Al

    --
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  15. DarkTom said:

    *I put it on with a torque wrench and tightened it to 60lb/ft and it
    still comes loose!*


    This sounds like there may be damage to the crank or axle. This can
    happen from riding with loose cranks, causing wear and tear. It also can
    happen in rare cases if you have a badly machined crank (or axle, but
    crank is more likely). 90mm is an odd size, and may be from a children's
    bike not intended to get much torque on it. So you may need a new
    crank.

    The other think all you square-taper riders can think about is bringing
    a wrench along. I have a Park Tool crank nut/bolt wrench (14mm, fits all
    common unicycles) that I bring with me on rides where I'm worried about
    loose cranks.

    If I don't bring it with me, the ride always starts with a tightness
    check, using same wrench. I did this before setting of last Sunday on
    the Strawberry Fields ride.

    --
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  16. Cheers for the input. I thought wee-er cranks would take more but what
    Kington99 said makes sense. It'll be my legs that are having to exert
    more force, rather than the cranks taking more pressure. I think....

    johnfoss said:

    *90mm is an odd size, and may be from a children's bike not intended
    to get much torque on it. So you may need a new crank.
    *

    I got them from UDC at BUC12, not even a month ago. They're the same as
    all the solid-cast ones they sell, just shorter. I used to have 102's
    on the wheel but wanted more speed. They stayed on fine and were the
    same type/make of crank.

    johnfoss wrote:*

    Quoted message said:

    The other think all you square-taper riders can think about is
    bringing a wrench along.*

    I can't be taking a wrench/socket with me to work every day, it's only
    1.5 miles.

    The crank stayed on on the way to work tonight (and back!) and I put a
    wee bit o grease on it and tightened it to 70lb/ft. If it comes loose
    again, I'll try locktite. If it still comes loose I'll buy new
    cranks.

    Cheers for the input again!

    T.

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  17. And thanx from me too.
    Bike shop replaced the cranks using the grease etc (although bike shop
    man was a bit dubious "I've never put grease on cranks before". So I
    said, that was the expert advice.)
    They stayed nice & tight tonight.
    Fingers crossed...
    Cathy

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  18. cathwood said:

    *And thanx from me too.
    Bike shop replaced the cranks using the grease etc (although bike shop
    man was a bit dubious "I've never put grease on cranks before". So I
    said, that was the expert advice.)
    They stayed nice & tight tonight.
    Fingers crossed...
    Cathy *

    Grease or no grease on the tapers is a subject of debate amongst bicycle
    mechanics. They actually have debates and FAQs about the subject.
    There are points on both sides of the debate.

    I recommend the grease because the grease allows the crank to slide on
    the spindle a consistent amount with a given amount of torque. It keeps
    the crank from getting hung up while installing them.

    One concern for not putting grease on the tapers is they're worried that
    the grease may allow an aluminum crank to slide too far onto the spindle
    and actually cause the crank to split. I don't see that as a major
    concern. You're much more likely to eventually ruin the cranks by
    having them get loose than to eventually ruin them by having them
    split.

    The Loctite on the threads has two functions. It acts as a lubricant
    while tightening the bolt/nut. That allows you to get a consistent and
    more accurate torque reading with the torque wrench. When the Loctite
    dries it keeps the crank bolt/nut from vibrating loose during use. As
    long as that bolt/nut stays tight the crank will stay tight. It's when
    the bolt/nut backs off that the crank gets loose. Keep it tight and
    you've won the battle.

    The torque wrench is the quality control. It's the only way to know if
    you get the crank bolt/nut tight enough without overtightening.
    Otherwise it's all just guesswork.

    The Loctite on the threads and the torque wrench for tightening it all
    up to 35-40 foot-pounds are the two most important bits. The grease on
    the tapers can go either way.

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  19. I have the same problem on my Qu-Ax. I have tried grease and locktight
    (or however it is spelt), but none worked for me. I think I'll try
    heating them up, though, that's also what is done when designing
    racingcars and other extreme machines so it is kinda cool to do that
    with my unicycle...

    Anyways, thanks for all the advice. Now I may finally sort this out!

    --
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  20. *No heat*; the system is not designed for that. Moreover, heating is
    not consistent because you cannot guarantee the temperatures when you
    finally get the crank to the axle. Heating (properly) works for
    bearings because they will always cool to the same size on the same
    shaft. With a tapered interface, when the crank finally cools, its
    position on the taper, and thus the resulting interface forces, are not
    controlled.

    Grease on the taper is recommended by Jobst Brandt, who is the leading
    visible researcher in this area. When you torque on the crank if the
    surface is not lubricated, the material (especially aluminum) will form
    its own lubricant and "mush" along the surface, called galling. This is
    uncontrolled and also deforms the crank.
    _Friction_between_the_crank_and_axle_surfaces_performs_no_role_in_the_strength_and_fit_of_the_crank_.
    It is the shapes of the two surfaces that is important. By greasing the
    tapers, the interface between the two is controlled as much as possible
    when the crank is installed. In addition, the grease helps protect the
    interface from both corrosive and erosive destruction during use.

    If you are having trouble with the cranks after using the instructions
    that John Childs has listed, then
    -the problem is with the cranks-. Don't risk your entire wheel trying
    to get a bad set of cranks to stay on. Toss them and get another pair.
    40 ft-lbs is about right; needing to go above that number means that
    there is a problem.

    Finally, there is a popular myth that the proper way to handle new
    aluminum cranks is to carry a wrench and tighten them every once in a
    while (when they become loose) until they finally settle in and stop
    doing that. Although this is partly true, the truly proper way to do
    this is to remove the crank, clean, regrease, and retorque it on, not
    leave it on and keep tightening it. There is a "squirming action"
    during riding which moves the crank around, towards the middle of the
    axle slightly. This action results in a loose nut/bolt, but the crank
    itself is actually higher on the taper and tighter. After several
    successive applications of the wrench, the crank is on much tighter than
    it should be, and its life is greatly shortened because long-term cracks
    develop in the crank interface, especially in the corners.

    So... the proper way to handle this is: after proper installation, go
    for your ride. During the ride, keep the nut snug, but don't put any
    oomph into it. After your ride, go home, remove the crank, and
    re-install it, again with the proper torque. After a couple of rides or
    so, the crank interface should slightly deform in the right places and
    settle down.

    Buying better quality cranks will make this whole process less obtrusive
    on your riding, since the surfaces will be much more to spec, and the
    material much stronger and more consistent.

    For confirmation of the above, although with much less rider-friendly
    terminology, see http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html.

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