CTL for Masters

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by numminummi, Oct 3, 2013.

  1. numminummi

    numminummi New Member

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    Hi!

    I myself am a conti rider. I hit a CTL of 135-140 - made up from specific training - when i'm in my best shape. Next year I will be coaching some masters athletes. Any masters out there who have some personal experience with CTL and hitting top form? My thoughts are that CTL does not need to be as high as their races are only 2,5 hrs long.
     
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  2. smaryka

    smaryka Member

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    In my experience, the higher the CTL the better I do. In real life though, most people who work full time, have family commitments, etc. won't be able to sustain 135-140 but rather something like 80-100 is achievable. I need minimum 80 to be competitive (I'll be 40 next year so not exactly a master yet but not young either). I wouldn't think of racing and expecting any kind of result on less than 70. A 2.5 hour race is still ~170-190 for me, so about twice my CTL.

    If people are trying to peak for something specific and not hold it all season long, I would guess ~110-120 is doable for a short period of 6 weeks or so? If family/work/weather are amenable.
     
  3. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Similar here with people I coach.

    All of them work full-time, most can get to and hold around 100. I have 2-3 guys that can move up into the 120's. When they are up that high, they can absorb some high workloads and bounce back pretty quickly.

    Even at 100, you can train, quite hard and bounce back quickly. Sometimes, it can be more detrimental, being higher and focusing on higher CTL. it all depends on the athletes background, what they are targeting, etc

    I once had a guy crack 130's, but it took quite a bit of work and it wasn't sustainable.

    You should also track weekly IF, this helps make sure you not just racking up k's for the sake of doing k's to raise your CTL. I try and keep my guys weekly IF above 0.8.

    I have three guys doing Grafton to Inverell (230km RR) and few weeks and they are all between 110-120's, still climbing, with IF's above 0.8.

    Paul
     
  4. smaryka

    smaryka Member

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    Interesting point about the IF as well as CTL. Leads me to another question though -- when you have riders doing less CTL but more quality work (say 5x a week on the turbo doing SST or other intense intervals) how do you take that into account? My impression is that turbo TSS is "worth" more than road riding just for the simple reason that TSS is inflated by lots of stop/start and freewheeling, whereas you don't really get a break on the turbo.

    I nearly overdid it this year when I returned from a 10-day training camp (warm weather winter holiday) where I had ramped from 75 CTL to 95, then tried not to lose too much but at the same time had to turn to indoor riding. My IF for the next few weeks was above 85 and I was absolutely smashed after that! Rested for a week or so then won my first race of the season though. ;)

    So what do you aim for in CTL/TSS when IF is high from indoor riding?
     
  5. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by numminummi .
    Next year I will be coaching some masters athletes. Any masters out there who have some personal experience with CTL and hitting top form? My thoughts are that CTL does not need to be as high as their races are only 2,5 hrs long.

    Part of coaching is looking at the athlete and determining what the athlete needs and can do.

    Some older athletes have the time and ability to train long hours. They may need the long hours.

    You should look at their current current training and go from there.

    ---

    I am old. My CTL is about 150. If I was doing any serious training, I would kick it up.
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Wow! That's a doozy....[​IMG]
     
  7. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by An old Guy .


    I am old. My CTL is about 150. If I was doing any serious training, I would kick it up.


    Can you post a screen shot of that?.....otherwise I'll call bullshit on that claim.

    Paul
     
  8. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by smaryka .
    Interesting point about the IF as well as CTL. Leads me to another question though -- when you have riders doing less CTL but more quality work (say 5x a week on the turbo doing SST or other intense intervals) how do you take that into account? My impression is that turbo TSS is "worth" more than road riding just for the simple reason that TSS is inflated by lots of stop/start and freewheeling, whereas you don't really get a break on the turbo.

    I nearly overdid it this year when I returned from a 10-day training camp (warm weather winter holiday) where I had ramped from 75 CTL to 95, then tried not to lose too much but at the same time had to turn to indoor riding. My IF for the next few weeks was above 85 and I was absolutely smashed after that! Rested for a week or so then won my first race of the season though. ;)

    So what do you aim for in CTL/TSS when IF is high from indoor riding?


    Good points...I'm not really sure though, as I live in OZ and don't put guys on long periods of time on the W/T. The climate down here never gets cold enough. So, I don't have the data to compare between the two (i.e Indoor v's outdoor).

    That's very solid training keeping your weekly IF above 0.85.......The race results just confirms the importance of "quality over quantity".

    In terms of your last question, I don't place a big focus on CTL and IF. I focus more on looking at an athletes Power Profile (5s, 1min, 5min, 20min, 60min) and his upcoming races, in terms of distances, course elevation. Then I just look at his strengths/weaknesses, time available to train and build from there. CTL and IF are then used as a secondary guideline to make sure I have his TSB deep enough, but not too deep, too keep the adaptations going.

    Paul
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by fluro2au .

    Good points...I'm not really sure though, as I live in OZ and don't put guys on long periods of time on the W/T. The climate down here never gets cold enough. So, I don't have the data to compare between the two (i.e Indoor v's outdoor).

    That's very solid training keeping your weekly IF above 0.85.......The race results just confirms the importance of "quality over quantity".

    In terms of your last question, I don't place a big focus on CTL and IF. I focus more on looking at an athletes Power Profile (5s, 1min, 5min, 20min, 60min) and his upcoming races, in terms of distances, course elevation. Then I just look at his strengths/weaknesses, time available to train and build from there. CTL and IF are then used as a secondary guideline to make sure I have his TSB deep enough, but not too deep, too keep the adaptations going.

    Paul


    I am still not sure how to use TSB as a metric in my training. I use TSS and IF per ride to set a session target and look at CTL ramp rate. I've read about TSB a number of times, but for whatever reason it still does not clique for me in using it. What advice or perspective would you give on this topic? Maybe the more explanations I get something's going to make a break through my simple brain.

    This year has been a tough year for those in my area. I may end up with similar totals like mileage, hours and kj as last year, but certainly the quality has not been as high. We have had a lot of rain compared to any year that I remember of living in the southeast. I have logged a lot of miles in that rain, but with less intensity (slower speed) to keep it safer. Work and other life interruptions have been greater. Holding on to a job in this economy has caused greater stress with a factor of upper management are looking for committed employees when making the cut list. It is kind of hard to bolt out of the door right at 5 pm to get on to training with the appearance it gives. Kind of like "you look more committed to your play time on that bike than to us." They want people committed to working longer hours because there are less people. Just throwing that in because it has become a reality for many of us now. With all that going on my CTL at the moment is at 69 and the quality of that 69 is not even where I would like it to be.

    I am just hoping that 2014 may turn out a little better. It helps that I am classified as a recreational cyclist so I have don't have the added emotional stress of being under prepared for events.
     
  10. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by fluro2au .

    ....otherwise I'll call bullshit on that claim.


    There is little charge for that. Perhaps a bit of egg on your face.

    ---

    If I post a screen shot, someone will demand more data, and then more. In the end they will still say it is bogus. I don't see an up side for me.

    But if you pay for the data and set the conditions, then you might not complain.

    Your choice.
     
  11. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I suppose I just need to be more attentive to my TSB as it goes with performance. I don't think I have ever seen my TSB as deep negative as I see for a lot of guys training for racing and racking up big TSS weeks. I just wondered if there was a guideline chart made in correlation to TSB ranges. I have seen several times where people say they like to be about -10 to -5 on the day of a race.


    I suppose I will just continue on like I am doing by using IF as my intervals duration target along with daily TSS for training consecutive days.
     
  12. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by An old Guy .

    There is little charge for that. Perhaps a bit of egg on your face.

    ---

    If I post a screen shot, someone will demand more data, and then more. In the end they will still say it is bogus. I don't see an up side for me.

    But if you pay for the data and set the conditions, then you might not complain.

    Your choice.


    Like I said, I call BS...Nuff said
    [​IMG]
    Paul
     
  13. smaryka

    smaryka Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by fluro2au .

    Like I said, I call BS...Nuff said
    [​IMG]
    Paul

    I find it pretty funny that someone who rants about Coggan's calculations and training metrics being bogus then turns around and tries to use them to show what a fit/amazing rider he is. CTL is based on TSS which is based on NP, which is apparently total crap according to the troll.

    150 CTL ha ha. I could make my CTL that high too if I underestimated my FTP and trained loads of junk miles week in and week out.
     
  14. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .
    I suppose I just need to be more attentive to my TSB as it goes with performance. I don't think I have ever seen my TSB as deep negative as I see for a lot of guys training for racing and racking up big TSS weeks. I just wondered if there was a guideline chart made in correlation to TSB ranges. I have seen several times where people say they like to be about -10 to -5 on the day of a race.


    I suppose I will just continue on like I am doing by using IF as my intervals duration target along with daily TSS for training consecutive days.


    Tracking TSB will develop with the athlete. You monitor how deep they go and what happens when they are down there. For example, I have one guy that gets down to around -30 to -40, he holds it for a few weeks then the good adaptations start showing through (TSB starts coming back up) with some good results. So when you give the athlete the next block you use that -30 to -40 as the benchmark and you get him back down there and keep him there a little longer and or take him a little deeper. Overtime, though, as the person becomes fitter, it gets harder and hard to produce that sort of TSB, but it is still needed in order to keep the adaptations happening.

    One feature I like with your TSB and how you know you are adapting, is when your CTL is heading north, your TSB is heading south, but then as your CTL keeps tracking north your TSB begins to level out and even start tracking north with your CTL. This is good indication that not only are you training well, but you are also adapting and growing. However, don't let your TSB track north for too long, as you'll be freshening up too much and you'll start over recovering between sessions. You need to look back at your PMC and make sure you keep your TSB nice and deep (relative to where you have been before) so that you can keep the good fatigue and overload happening.

    Paul
     
  15. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Thanks Paul

    That was the best description I have read so far as to how to use TSB. That makes sense to me.
     
  16. GeoSpectrum

    GeoSpectrum New Member

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    This is one of the best featues of tracking TSB. After an overload block where I build CTL, I like to back off a bit, down to what I call a 'maintennance' period when most of my training is above an IF of .8 but only of a duration enough to record a TSS equivialent to my CTL at the time, TSB rises during this period, I like to do this over a period of about 5 days.
     
  17. wheelzqc

    wheelzqc New Member

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    I seem to be able to get around 90 CTL. I'm a younger Master. I live in a northern climate and I spend the winter months on the trainer. Seems to work fine for this year, great year. In the summer with all the racing, I tend to not go too low on TSB.
     
  18. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I never said I was fit. I simply reported the numbers that Coggan's bogus metrics give.

    The only way I know to show you my FTP is correct istfo have you present when we measure it. Give me a week's notice so I can train for the test. Show up. You pay all costs I incur. I bill $1000/day for my time. So you need to pay for 7 days or so of my training.


    I have had too many vacation days this year. I will need to do 4 sessions a day in that week to get my FTP up to my claimed FTP. That is going to be tough.
     
  19. dkrenik

    dkrenik Member

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    Man, this guy cracks me up!
     
  20. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Maybe you want to split the cost with smaryka.

    Even Andy Coggan says the whole NP, IF, and whatever is a fraud.
     
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