Cycling: the obvious answer...

eddiec said:

OK - I'll agree that cycling isn't always the answer (eek - did I say that??), but I find it amusing/disturbing that people buy their outer-suburban 1/4acre block dream and then complain that not enough's being done about road congestion... We really haven't grown up have we? Still expect our parents to fix our problems for us....

Precisely. One of the deal breakers when we were house hunting was whether I could cycle to work or not. If I couldn't the house was no good.

I used to live in St Albans (with M&D) & commuting to/from work was a every 2nd day affair due to the distance.

So when I was house hunting (like EuanB) I looked at proximity to work/amenities etc.
Now in Flemington, 8 yrs later I no longer own a car (to be honest I share with my fiancee, but I hardly use it - once over the last fortnight). Cycle to/from work every day (except mega rainy days), walk to the shops (check out my grandma tolley to Safeways) & don't really stress about traffic even though I have some busy roads right nearby.

The thing about Melbourne is that the access to a car means that new outlying suburbs don't need to have alternative transport options to sell the properties, new estates never suffer from traffic problems first off.
It's usually the demand on exsisting infustructure where the pinch is (anyone from Point Cook/ Santury lakes Vic?)

Marx SS said:

I used to live in St Albans (with M&D) & commuting to/from work was a every 2nd day affair due to the distance.

So when I was house hunting (like EuanB) I looked at proximity to work/amenities etc.
Now in Flemington, 8 yrs later I no longer own a car (to be honest I share with my fiancee, but I hardly use it - once over the last fortnight). Cycle to/from work every day (except mega rainy days), walk to the shops (check out my grandma tolley to Safeways) & don't really stress about traffic even though I have some busy roads right nearby.

The thing about Melbourne is that the access to a car means that new outlying suburbs don't need to have alternative transport options to sell the properties, new estates never suffer from traffic problems first off.
It's usually the demand on exsisting infustructure where the pinch is (anyone from Point Cook/ Santury lakes Vic?)

I agree that there's an awful vicious cycle in that the most affordable housing in Melbourne is also least serviced by public transport (and other services for that matter) and requires those least able to afford it to go out and buy 2 cars. Kate Colvin (old friend of mine) is quoted in the Age today talking about that very same thing...

I still think there are some creative solutions open to people in terms of affordability which they may not be considering to avoid some of those traps.

I do however get annoyed with many people I know who when they think of housing only think of 'how big' and 'how much land', and ignore things like getting around, etc. When we moved just recently we were irritated deeply that we'd have to walk 20minutes to the shops rather than the previous 10! Mind you, I was right chuffed to have a bike path go past my back gate which would take me right onto trail network! For us there was no comparison to a gloriously appointed mini-mansion in Rowville...

Eddie(105 out of 150? (http://www.theage.com.au/ed_docs/indicatordata2.pdf) bah! imbeciles!!)c

eddiec said:

I agree that there's an awful vicious cycle in that the most affordable housing in Melbourne is also least serviced by public transport (and other services for that matter) and requires those least able to afford it to go out and buy 2 cars. Kate Colvin (old friend of mine) is quoted in the Age today talking about that very same thing...

The problem is that we've been conditioned in to thinking that owning a car is a necessity, and depending on where you live that could well be true.

The average car costs $200 a week to run, if you're living in one of these new suburbs I suspect that the cost would be more. Two times $200 is $400 a week. That's a lot of mullah to put in to a mortgage.

Don’t want to boast (but I will), most housing in new estates have a smaller back yard than my singlefronted Vic fed. Also street parking out the front is on par with Point Cook & Caroline Springs.

Its’ just that I have comprehencive footpaths that go places & leaving the house to get somewhere isn’t a problem (by foot, bike, pub t’port or car). Also have one of Melbourne’s largest green spaces 1 km walk (yes, all that distance with my feet) from my place.

As for cost. Sure 2x bathroom, 3x bedroom houses are a mint close to the CBD, but who lives in one of those?

EuanB said:

Precisely. One of the deal breakers when we were house hunting was whether I could cycle to work or not. If I couldn't the house was no good.

Today's focus of The Age's story on Melbourne's "Most liveable' suburbs is on 'Transport'. Take a loo kat that map. all the good bits are along the trainlines along the spiderweb pattern and everyone else can go hee 🙁

We can build a ring road, but not a ring-rail???

EuanB said:

Precisely. One of the deal breakers when we were house hunting was whether I could cycle to work or not. If I couldn't the house was no good.

You are fortunate to have the capacity to commute such a long way. Kudos to you - strong will, strong legs.

Not everyone has the same options, though. It seems that a.b is demographically represented, from a commuting perspective, by trips of 5-20 km, with obvious exceptions and no science involved in the this hypothesis. Hence suburbs of Kew, North Boring, Burwood, Chadstone, quoted sometimes. These are the middle and inner suburbs that are out of reach of many due to price. Trouble is that roads seem to get narrower and more dangerous further out, Nepean Hwy excepted, hills get hillier, commute gets longer. And public transport gets [censored].

No real point in this diatribe, just trying to avoid the inevitable work I have to do (report to finish, emails to send).

sinus said:

quoted sometimes. These are the middle and inner suburbs that are out
of reach of many due to price. Trouble is that roads seem to get

How much of that, though, is because of the "I want it all, and I want
it now" mentality? When I bought my place, I ended up in a "two bedroom"
(realistically, one plus study) place. Combined bathroom/laundry, and
the living area is tiny compared with many places I've seen in the outer
suburbs.

But against all that, it's big enough for me, on my own. I'm a little
cramped for space, but that's because I still have boxes lying around
waiting to be unpacked; the place itself is plenty big enough for me.
Because I bought in Mitcham, it was in the higher end of my price range
-- but I'd rather have a smaller place in a good location than a massive
place in a poor location. In that sense, Berwick (to cite one example)
is not realistic for me -- you have massive houses which I'd rattle in,
with poor access to the areas I want to go.

In due course, I'll probably need to sell up and move elsewhere --
especially if I find Ms. Right, get married, and have kids. But for the
time being, it's good enough -- it's a stepping stone to where I'd like
to be down the road.

Too many people are wanting everything *now*, and don't understand that
sacrifices are necessary. They go and get what they want now, without
realising the sacrifices they're making in doing so. Me, I've got
something that's maybe less of what I really want, but it's more of what
I *need* in my own place.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@ to usenet".

quote='Stuart Lamble'On 2005-08-22 said:

quoted sometimes. These are the middle and inner suburbs that are out
of reach of many due to price. Trouble is that roads seem to get

How much of that, though, is because of the "I want it all, and I want
it now" mentality? When I bought my place, I ended up in a "two bedroom"
(realistically, one plus study) place. Combined bathroom/laundry, and
the living area is tiny compared with many places I've seen in the outer
suburbs.

[/QUOTE]
You're right - the so-called McMansion phenomenon. I guess it gives them comfort on the crowded roads/trains to dream about being at home in all their glorious space.

I started out with two bedrooms, admittedly buying before the big boom got going 10 years ago. But location was important - I couldn't tolerate a one hour commute. The most important room in our house is huge: 15m x 15m. It's called the back yard - you can't seem to buy them anymore. And it is used all year, even in winter. Where do kids learn to ride bikes these days?

sinus said:

Stuart Lamble said:

On 2005-08-22, sinus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

quoted sometimes. These are the middle and inner suburbs that are out
of reach of many due to price. Trouble is that roads seem to get

How much of that, though, is because of the "I want it all, and I want
it now" mentality? When I bought my place, I ended up in a "two
bedroom"
(realistically, one plus study) place. Combined bathroom/laundry, and
the living area is tiny compared with many places I've seen in the
outer
suburbs.

You're right - the so-called McMansion phenomenon.

Bingo -- that's exactly what I'm talking about. I look at these forty
square places, and I shudder -- they'd cost a fortune to heat/cool
(delete as appropriate according to season); they'd take far too long to
keep clean; in short, they'd just encourage the accumulation of cruft.

Quoted message said:

I started out with two bedrooms, admittedly buying before the big boom
got going 10 years ago. But location was important - I couldn't
tolerate a one hour commute. The most important room in our house is
huge: 15m x 15m. It's called the back yard - you can't seem to buy them
anymore. And it is used all year, even in winter. Where do kids learn to
ride bikes these days?

I don't really have much of a backyard to speak of -- there's a small
shed, a lemon tree, and a clothes line, and not much else (not much room
for anything else, to be honest). But against that, I'm backing onto a
sewerage easement (meaning lots of empty space that nobody is allowed to
build on), and there's a small park next door.

My only regret is that I can't plant a large number of native trees in
the backyard. No room, you see. But I still get visiting rosellas and
the like, searching for seeds on the top of the shed roof.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@ to usenet".

sinus said:

Where do kids learn to
ride bikes these days?

I've been wondering that myself with a 5 year old who has lost her nerve
because we live around too many hills. I remember when I was young (the
world had just begun and I was happy) you would learn in the shopping
centre car park or at the local primary school on the basketball courts.
But the shoppign centres are open all weekend now, and the schools are
fenced off. What do I have to do to find a flat clear space for practice.

DaveB

In article <[email hidden]>,

eddiec said:

I agree that there's an awful vicious cycle in that the most affordable
housing in Melbourne is also least serviced by public transport (and
other services for that matter) and requires those least able to afford
it to go out and buy 2 cars.

Like this:
http://www.cardinia.vic.gov.au/Page/Download.asp?name=Cardinia_LakesNAC_U
DF.pdf&size=1860776&link=../Files/Cardinia_LakesNAC_UDF.pdf

The inovation? "The eastern carpark is also adjacent to the school and
bus drop-off (Area 7) allowing for parents/carers to park once for both
shopping and school pickup or drop-off".

A sea of carparks, no mention of the word bicycle, no sign of bus stops
except for school buses. And this is being planned maybe 3km from
Pakenham, presumably so the locals will be able to drive 1km rather than
4km. Another wonderful missed opportunity...

--
Shane Stanley

quote='DaveB'sinus said:

Where do kids learn to
ride bikes these days?

I've been wondering that myself with a 5 year old who has lost her nerve
because we live around too many hills. I remember when I was young (the
world had just begun and I was happy) you would learn in the shopping
centre car park or at the local primary school on the basketball courts.
But the shoppign centres are open all weekend now, and the schools are
fenced off. What do I have to do to find a flat clear space for practice.

DaveB[/QUOTE]
Wot, even the government primary school? Our local isn't fenced and actually encouraged 4/5 year olds to come and play on weekends before starting school to familiarise themselves. My son learnt to ride last summer wobbling all over the basketball courts. We have a bit of an issue with hills too, with about 100 metres of our street flat and then the rest downhill (uphill coming home).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "sinus" == sinus <[email hidden]> writes:

sinus EuanB said:

Quoted message said:

Precisely. One of the deal breakers when we were house hunting
was whether I could cycle to work or not. If I couldn't the house
was no good.

sinus> You are fortunate to have the capacity to commute such a long
sinus> way. Kudos to you - strong will, strong legs.

Really, I'm not that strong. What allows me to do this is that I've
taken coaching which means I know how to peddle. It makes a huge
difference, I thoroughly recommend taking coaching to anyone who uses a
bike whether you've aspirations to race or not.

For the record I have not ever raced, do not want to race and yes I use
a road bike. Until I get my Surly that is. If I say it often enough it
will happen.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

eddiec said:

I agree that there's an awful vicious cycle in that the most affordable housing in Melbourne is also least serviced by public transport (and other services for that matter) and requires those least able to afford it to go out and buy 2 cars.

[snip]

Melbournites complaining about house prices? Try Sydney for real sticker shock...

Ouch!

Ritch

Ritch wrote:

Melbournites complaining about house prices? Try Sydney for real sticker shock...

Ouch!

Yeah it's ridiculous. Having said that, wages are considerably higher in Sydney and I'm talking from experience here.

I'm one of those people. I live in a 2 bathroom, 3 bedroom house on a 336m² block in a new estate in the outer suburbs of Brisbane (24 radial kilometres, 35km bike commute to work in the city, 50 minutes by car and train and so on). At first I didn't like it because there are heaps of rude old people around (off to Forest Place with them) and a lot of first home buyers who don't have a clue about landscaping and gardening and thus let their homes bring down the street appeal of so many others.. but then, what suburb doesn't have ugly gardens left, right and centre?

I'd never complain about living a fair way from town... my commute rocks! It's 35km each way and the ride itself is quite pleasant 99% of the time and there aren't very many traffic lights at all. It goes through a couple of Cayenne and X5 suburbs, but all in all it's a pretty good commute.

If I drive to work, it's a bit of a b!tch because the highways are fairly congested West of Brisbane. So I try not to drive. Eventually, there'll be a train line heading out our way, but the government is hardly going to fund something which, at this point in time, wouldn't be used a heck of a lot. And why should they?

It's a choice you make when you buy a house - we all have different needs and wants. We looked at old cottages closer (8 - 14km) to the city, and they were gorgeous, but in the end we decided not to buy one of them because most of them needed a considerable amount of work done to them and on our combined salary at the time, we would have been flat out making the mortgage repayments, let alone spending thousands renovating a [censored].

So, despite living a fair way out of town, we have one car between two of us, 5 bikes and soon we'll have a scooter as well. You don't have to own two Falcodores just because you live a fair way out of town - Aussies just need to realise this.

In the event that I decide I don't like commuting to the city anymore, I'll pull my finger out of my butt and look for work closer to home. How hard is that?

Lotte

LotteBum said:

I'm one of those people. I live in a 2 bathroom, 3 bedroom house on a
336m² block in a new estate in the outer suburbs of Brisbane (24
radial kilometres, 35km bike commute to work in the city, 50 minutes
by car and train and so on).

I live 50 kms from the city. Also takes 50 minutes. We have a 2 x 4 house on
a 20,000 metre block, as does everyone else in the estate. It's only a five
minute walk to the neighbour's place.

Theo

LotteBum said:

Ritch wrote:

Melbournites complaining about house prices? Try Sydney for real sticker shock...

Ouch!

Yeah it's ridiculous. Having said that, wages are considerably higher in Sydney and I'm talking from experience here.

[snip]

Lotte

Yes, but not that much more - see http://www.rba.gov.au/PublicationsAndResearch/StatementsOnMonetaryPolicy/Statements/statement_on_monetary_0805.pdf

... and look for Box B on house prices compared with average wages (Graph B3). Sydney is much more expensive, even when allowing for higher average incomes.

I actually had a nice old house in Wooloowin that I sold when I left in 2002. Very nice house, renovated and all, but it would have been a costly renter, so I sold out (at the wrong time, evidently).

Ritch

On 2005-08-22, Stuart Lamble (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

In due course, I'll probably need to sell up and move elsewhere --
especially if I find Ms. Right,

return -ENOTCYNICALENOUGH;

Geez, you're fussy. I just want Ms. Someone.

Anyone want a soon to be broke student with two hungry (but very
lovable) cats, and a good bike?

--
TimC
-o)
/\\ The penguins are coming...
_\_v the penguins are coming...