Cyclist killed, driver cited for going too fast

[Bill Baka]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:29:53 -0400, Rich Clark
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
>> Rich,
>> I wish there were more like you because everyone around here assumes
>> that just because they are on a 55MPH back road with little traffice
>> that there is nothing to hit. I doubt that I would be seen and on
>> the occasions where I have attempted to appease the law and order crowd
>> I have been whiffed pretty closely by some big rigs. Six inches is the
>> closest so far but I was on the edge of the pavement, (read stripe,
>> no bike lane) and there was no traffic oncoming. The driver could have
>> easily moved all the way over into the other side but did nothing.
>> 98% of big rig drivers pull way over for me and I give them a wave,
>> 2% get a different kind of wave. I like to stay legal but I am not
>> going to pursue it to the grave.
>> Bill Baka
>
> I would still be riding with the traffic. If I have to bail, I'd rather
> have
> a closing speed of 35mph between me and the truck than one of 75mph.
>
> I know the trucks are coming up behind me. I can hear them, and I can see
> them in my mirror. No way I would *ever* ride against traffic in the
> situation you describe. It's not a matter of what's legal; it's a matter
> of
> what's safe. I've been riding the roads of Illinois and Pennsylvania and
> elsewhere for 45 years, and have plenty of experience with narrow 2-lane
> roads with no shoulders and lots of hidden driveways and blind curves.
> Riding into the face of 55mph oncoming traffic on a back road with no
> shoulder is insane.
>
> RichC
>
>
Call me insane then but at least I am still alive and riding. You don't
have big rigs logging what is left of nature (it's gone back east), and
I doubt that you have the type of minimum wage driver hauling gravel on
a local run. These guys are the worst and make drunk rednecks look good.
California is notorious for having too few highway rest stops, so what
makes you think they are even going to consider wasting the pavement for
a bike lane. Dream on. I ride to enjoy it not to get splatted being proper.
Bill Baka


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[Frank Krygowski]

RichC wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>
>>I know it's hyperbole, but I think it can mislead newbies.
>>
>>There are lots of situations where, if a cylist really thought "they'll
>>never notice me, no matter what I do," they'd actually ride more
>>dangerously. One classic case is to squeeze too close to a parked car
>>door because of fear of drivers coming from behind.
>>
>>A cyclist who says, instead, "I'm going to _make_ myself visible" is
>>often riding safer.
>
>
> I disagree. There's a big difference between "ride as if you're
> invisible" -- the old saw that I agree is potentially deceptive when a
> cyclist believes "invisible" means "immaterial" -- and "ride as if the
> drivers are blind."
> ...
>
> Frank, I'd be interested in what you find if you, a very experienced
> cyclist, re-analyze your style in light of the "drivers are blind"
> principle. You may well have adopted it without really thinking of it
> that way. That's what I did.

Try as I might, I can't understand any practical difference between "I'm
invisible" and "the drivers are blind." If anything, in the former
case, it might occur to me to _make_ myself visible. In the latter
case, such a tactic would be futile.

Why not just say something like "Be aware that drivers might not notice
you; so make yourself visible to them, but be ready to avoid them"?


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
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[Frank Krygowski]

Bill Baka wrote:

>
> Call me insane then but at least I am still alive and riding....

Bill, you've now had _dozens_ of very experienced cyclists telling you
you're wrong - if not insane.

It's obvious to me we're not going to convince you.

It should be even more obvious to you that you're not going to convince us.

Why do you keep this up?

--
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Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

 

[Rich Clark]

"Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Why not just say something like "Be aware that drivers might not notice
> you; so make yourself visible to them, but be ready to avoid them"?

Too many words?

Seriously, I take a totally self-centric view. I assume that every vehicle
that approaches me from behind might swerve into me, or right-hook me, or
pull in front of me and suddenly stop. I assume that every vehicle in a
cross street will run the red light or turn in front of me. I assume that
every parked car has an exiting driver about to open the door. Etc, etc,
etc.

I assume they're blind, at least insofar as I am concerned.

This is a very empowering attitude, it's not at all constraining, and it
makes me feel safe, not afraid. It puts me in control, and makes me
responsible for my own destiny. The degree of alertness and situational
awareness required is mentally stimulating and makes me feel edgy and
youthful.

I believe in making myself visible, and do so to an extreme, but it doesn't
change my riding style:

Never trust a driver.
See a block ahead, see a block behind.
Never let a moving car get closer to you than you are to a place you can
bail out to.
Don't scare the drivers; they're emotionally fragile.

RichC

RichC

 

[Calm n Collected]

[email protected] (RichC) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected]omcom (dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year in my
> > bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights *on* -
> > and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.
>
> Have you actually tested that theory?
>
> I ask because I had it happen recently, while driving, that sun glare
> made it pretty much impossible for me to see where I was going. I
> slowed down pulled over until conditions changed, which took about 10
> minutes.
>
> I was the only car that stopped. Was I the only driver that was
> blinded? Maybe. But I doubt it.
>
> Drivers blinded by sun glare assume, I think, that they can still see
> something as big as a car in time to avoid hitting it. And they drive
> on, blindly. That appears to be what happened in the fatal collision
> that inspired this thread. Blinking lights on the bike would not have
> saved the victims.
>
> Knowing they were being overtaken by a blinded driver and being
> prepared to bail out might have saved them. (Total speculation; I have
> no actual knowledge of the circumstances.)
>
> Me, I assume that all drivers are blind at all times, and ride
> accordingly.
>
> RichC

That's a good strategy.

I take it one step furthur. I assume that most drivers are blind both
physically and mentally. The first thing I do b4 a bike ride is ask
God for protection.

Andy

 

[AG]

Sharing roads with cars makes me very nervous. When I commute, the
ride is in the city and the drivers are quite civilized. I am alert
but not worried. When I ride out of town, I stay on the 10-mile-or-so
isolated bike lanes. I
go back and forth knowing I do not have to worry about cars. I do not
adventure into the open country roads.

 

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:06:51 -0700, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:

>Call me insane then but at least I am still alive and riding.

Obviously all of us that ride with traffic (now for 45 years) are dead
and no longer able to ride.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

 

[Frank Krygowski]

AG wrote:
> Sharing roads with cars makes me very nervous. When I commute, the
> ride is in the city and the drivers are quite civilized. I am alert
> but not worried. When I ride out of town, I stay on the 10-mile-or-so
> isolated bike lanes. I
> go back and forth knowing I do not have to worry about cars. I do not
> adventure into the open country roads.

Well, that is your choice. Based on my experience, I'd say your
attitude is sort of like agoraphobia. You're letting your unjustified
fears limit your life experience. You're making your world smaller.

I've biked in countless cities, several countries, and nearly every US
state, and most of that has been on open country roads. I wouldn't give
it up for the world.


--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

 

[Frank Krygowski]

Rich Clark wrote:

> "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>Why not just say something like "Be aware that drivers might not notice
>>you; so make yourself visible to them, but be ready to avoid them"?
>
>
> Too many words?

That's a valid point!

How about "Stay alert, and stay visible" ?

>
> Seriously, I take a totally self-centric view. I assume that every vehicle
> that approaches me from behind might swerve into me, or right-hook me, or
> pull in front of me and suddenly stop. I assume that every vehicle in a
> cross street will run the red light or turn in front of me. I assume that
> every parked car has an exiting driver about to open the door. Etc, etc,
> etc.
>
> I assume they're blind, at least insofar as I am concerned.

What you describe in the "Seriously..." paragraph, and further down in
your post, is what I do, too - and I do that cycling, driving,
motorcycling and walking. I do a lot of anticipating and being aware of
what might go wrong.

But I just don't think "assume drivers are blind" conveys this properly
to a newbie, especially since the best defense is, so often, increasing
your visibility. If drivers _were_ blind, that wouldn't work - but in
real life, it does.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]

 

[Richard Amirault]

"dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers" wrote com...
(snip)
> When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year
> in my
> bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights
> *on* -
> and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.
(snip)

Similarly when riding *away* from the setting / rising sun it is a good idea
to put your headlight on. This is something I do regularly with driving my
car. If I can see my own shadow on the roadway I always put my headlights
on (and turn them to high-beam) so as to make me more visible to ...
oncoming traffic .. oncoming traffic turning left .. traffic entering the
roadway .. pedestrians.

Richard in Boston, MA, USA

 

[Rich Clark]

"Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> But I just don't think "assume drivers are blind" conveys this properly to
> a newbie, especially since the best defense is, so often, increasing your
> visibility. If drivers _were_ blind, that wouldn't work - but in real
> life, it does.

That's where we disagree. It works often enough that it's worth doing, sure.
But there are still too many drivers that I do not trust to see me -- who
are driving along blind to anything but car-shaped boxes -- to trust them.

Frank, are you telling me that on those (probably very infrequent) occasions
when you are completely surprised by a passing car -- one you *really didn't
know was there* -- you don't feel a tiny surge of relief that your
inattention had no dire consequences? Or that in a moment when you find
yourself trapped -- you're about to be passed and there's nothing to your
right but a solid wall or a sheer drop-off -- you don't worry about an
approaching driver who's punching numbers into his cell phone as he
approaches you from behind?

You seem to be saying "make yourself as visible as possible," and that's all
you can do. I'm saying "assume that every approaching car is the guy with
the phone." He can't see you if he's not looking, and you need to be more
proactive than just being visible to protect yourself from him.

RichC

 

[Wayne Pein]

Rich Clark wrote:
>
> Frank, are you telling me that on those (probably very infrequent) occasions
> when you are completely surprised by a passing car -- one you *really didn't
> know was there* -- you don't feel a tiny surge of relief that your
> inattention had no dire consequences? Or that in a moment when you find
> yourself trapped -- you're about to be passed and there's nothing to your
> right but a solid wall or a sheer drop-off -- you don't worry about an
> approaching driver who's punching numbers into his cell phone as he
> approaches you from behind?
>
> You seem to be saying "make yourself as visible as possible," and that's all
> you can do. I'm saying "assume that every approaching car is the guy with
> the phone." He can't see you if he's not looking, and you need to be more
> proactive than just being visible to protect yourself from him.
>
> RichC
>


So what is your countermeasure for motorists approaching from behind? Do
you ride on the edge to be as far away from them as possible? Do you
ride well into the lane to be more visible and compel them to be
cautious when overtaking?

Wayne

 

[Rich Clark]

"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> So what is your countermeasure for motorists approaching from behind? Do
> you ride on the edge to be as far away from them as possible?

Absolutely not. I scan the road ahead so that I always know where I will go
if the overtaking car becomes a threat. I want them to see me. I do what's
possible to increase the chances that they will. I just don't assume that
they do. Riding off to the side decreases those chances, and thus would
increase my risk.

> Do you ride well into the lane to be more visible and compel them to be
> cautious when overtaking?

I always take the lane when the situation warrants, but the principle above
still applies. Taking the lane doesn't guarantee than a distracted driver
will see you, although most of the time it helps. You can tell by the
behavior of the car -- you hear the engine sound change, you see them slow
down, they honk, whatever -- that they're aware of you or not.

Situational awareness, spacial and temporal visualization (what's ahead;
what's behind; what will change in the next ten seconds), a complete lack of
trust and an unwillingness to make assumptions about driver behavior: these
are my "countermeasures."

RichC

 

[Wayne Pein]

Rich Clark wrote:
> "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>So what is your countermeasure for motorists approaching from behind? Do
>>you ride on the edge to be as far away from them as possible?
>
>
> Absolutely not. I scan the road ahead so that I always know where I will go
> if the overtaking car becomes a threat.

How do you know when an overtaking car becomes a threat?

Wayne

 

[Bill Baka]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:16:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<[email protected]> wrote:

> AG wrote:
>> Sharing roads with cars makes me very nervous. When I commute, the
>> ride is in the city and the drivers are quite civilized. I am alert
>> but not worried. When I ride out of town, I stay on the 10-mile-or-so
>> isolated bike lanes. I
>> go back and forth knowing I do not have to worry about cars. I do not
>> adventure into the open country roads.
>
> Well, that is your choice. Based on my experience, I'd say your
> attitude is sort of like agoraphobia. You're letting your unjustified
> fears limit your life experience. You're making your world smaller.
>
> I've biked in countless cities, several countries, and nearly every US
> state, and most of that has been on open country roads. I wouldn't give
> it up for the world.
>
>
Tell that to the cyclists who were killed from behind. Usually
you can hear a car coming from behind, look back, and be safe.
I ride nothing but open and mountains roads and the way that works
is to get off and park the bike and yourself as far away from the
road as possible. It's just that 0.1% of drivers who can kill you
and it doesn't matter how you are hit. Agoraphobic I am not, alive
I am. Bike whatever is safest for you. The authorities in California
have no clue, since my motorcycle test has some pretty stupid
questions on it, so the California legislators have probably never
set foot on a bike.
Notice I did not say which side to ride, just the """SAFEST"" side.
Bill Baka


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[Bill Baka]

On 14 Oct 2004 23:35:08 -0700, AG <[email protected]> wrote:

> Sharing roads with cars makes me very nervous. When I commute, the
> ride is in the city and the drivers are quite civilized. I am alert
> but not worried. When I ride out of town, I stay on the 10-mile-or-so
> isolated bike lanes. I
> go back and forth knowing I do not have to worry about cars. I do not
> adventure into the open country roads.

You are missing soooo much.
Bill Baka

 

[Bill Baka]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:08:14 -0400, Curtis L. Russell
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:06:51 -0700, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Call me insane then but at least I am still alive and riding.
>
> Obviously all of us that ride with traffic (now for 45 years) are dead
> and no longer able to ride.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

Look on a goddamned map and see where I ride and you might get the
point. I doubt though because if after 45 years of riding,
( I have you beat) I do have more experience. I have had to
leave the road even while riding right side (big wide farm equipment),
so there are no absolutes (vodka maybe) but it is up to you to decide
the safest place to ride. I am not going out on strictly full throttle
training runs and when I am goofing off at 15 MPH it is easy to hit
the ditch, or around here, foxtail and goathead stickers. Better to
have a flat than to be flat.
I am dropping this thread so i won't be back on this topic.
Bill Baka


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[Patrick Lamb]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:00:18 -0400, "Richard Amirault"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers" wrote com...
> (snip)
>> When the sun is low in the sky, and bright, such as this time of the year
>> in my
>> bit of the UK, and I have to cycle 'into' the sun, I have my rear lights
>> *on* -
>> and one in a flashing mode. Just helps make me that bit more visible.
>(snip)
>
>Similarly when riding *away* from the setting / rising sun it is a good idea
>to put your headlight on. This is something I do regularly with driving my
>car. If I can see my own shadow on the roadway I always put my headlights
>on (and turn them to high-beam) so as to make me more visible to ...
>oncoming traffic .. oncoming traffic turning left .. traffic entering the
>roadway .. pedestrians.

I worry more about the times when I CAN'T see my shadow on the road.
Dark, overcast, night...

Pat

Email address works as is.

 

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:41:29 -0700, Bill Baka <[email protected]> wrote:

>Look on a goddamned map and see where I ride and you might get the
>point. I doubt though because if after 45 years of riding,
>( I have you beat) I do have more experience.

I've ridden in enough of the areas that people pop up and say are so
unique and unusual and a few beyond that (driving on the Freedom
Highway in Thailand, for instance, makes our log trucks seem like
model citizens). I've put in my several hundred thousand miles and
more and I'm a) still riding on the road and b) still alive, best as I
can tell.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

 

[Frank Krygowski]

Rich Clark wrote:
> "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>But I just don't think "assume drivers are blind" conveys this properly to
>>a newbie, especially since the best defense is, so often, increasing your
>>visibility. If drivers _were_ blind, that wouldn't work - but in real
>>life, it does.
>
>
> That's where we disagree. It works often enough that it's worth doing, sure.

Rich, if you're going to be insistent about "assuming they're blind,"
I'm going to have to be insistent about it not being realistic.

If a driver really were _blind_, you would not be on the road anywhere
near him. If _all_ drivers were blind, you wouldn't want to be on any
road at any time. IOW, your advice, hyperbole or not, does not work.

>
> Frank, are you telling me that on those (probably very infrequent) occasions
> when you are completely surprised by a passing car -- one you *really didn't
> know was there* -- you don't feel a tiny surge of relief that your
> inattention had no dire consequences?

As far as I can recall, I don't feel any relief. I don't have enough
fear of traffic to generate relief!

> You seem to be saying "make yourself as visible as possible," and that's all
> you can do. I'm saying "assume that every approaching car is the guy with
> the phone." He can't see you if he's not looking, and you need to be more
> proactive than just being visible to protect yourself from him.

I do make myself visible, and I do try to be aware of potential driver
mistakes. As an example, if I'm on a street with the right of way, and
a driver comes to a stop sign at my right, I watch closely to be sure
they stop and stay stopped.

But I definitely don't stop my bike, or otherwise cede my right of way.
That's what I'd do if the driver were blind, but I'd literally never
get anywhere on my bike!

Be alert, sure. But be realistic!


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replace with cc.ysu dot edu]