M
Marty Wallace
Guest
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto605927.shtml
Must be that time of the year.
Marty
Must be that time of the year.
Marty
>Originally posted by Marty Wallace
>http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto605927.shtml
Yeah, cyclingforums were talking about him being "detained as a
witness".. whatever that means.
Could he be left out of the tour simply for being a 'suspected' doper?
l'equipe isn't exactly the most accurate reporter when it comes to
foreigners doping is it?
Wait and see I guess..
hippy
>http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto605927.shtml
Yeah, cyclingforums were talking about him being "detained as a
witness".. whatever that means.
Could he be left out of the tour simply for being a 'suspected' doper?
l'equipe isn't exactly the most accurate reporter when it comes to
foreigners doping is it?
Wait and see I guess..
hippy
S
Shane Stanley
Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah, cyclingforums were talking about him being "detained
> as a witness".. whatever that means.
If you mean cyclingnews, they've now gone with the l'Equipe
story: <http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/ju-
n04/jun25news2>
> Could he be left out of the tour simply for being a
> 'suspected' doper?
Yes, the tour organisation would drop him like a hot cake.
All the other French teams have already signed an agreement
to the effect that they will drop anyone under suspicion.
>
> l'equipe isn't exactly the most accurate reporter when it
> comes to foreigners doping is it?
It seems to do a pretty good job of getting hold of
confidential papers from the French police.
What with all this, plus the American track and field lot,
it could end up a much smaller Olympics.
--
Shane Stanley
hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah, cyclingforums were talking about him being "detained
> as a witness".. whatever that means.
If you mean cyclingnews, they've now gone with the l'Equipe
story: <http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/ju-
n04/jun25news2>
> Could he be left out of the tour simply for being a
> 'suspected' doper?
Yes, the tour organisation would drop him like a hot cake.
All the other French teams have already signed an agreement
to the effect that they will drop anyone under suspicion.
>
> l'equipe isn't exactly the most accurate reporter when it
> comes to foreigners doping is it?
It seems to do a pretty good job of getting hold of
confidential papers from the French police.
What with all this, plus the American track and field lot,
it could end up a much smaller Olympics.
--
Shane Stanley
According to cycling forums quoting l'equipe, Millar has now admitted to using EPO.
The big mouth from Britain is in more trouble than the early settlers. At least Brad McGee won last years TdF prologue fair and square.
Milla rshould be wiped out of the sport for life, especially after his vehement denials when the Cofidis affair first broke. What's the bet he gets a 2 year slap on the wrist from UCI.
BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five" in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which ones grow pony tails?
The big mouth from Britain is in more trouble than the early settlers. At least Brad McGee won last years TdF prologue fair and square.
Milla rshould be wiped out of the sport for life, especially after his vehement denials when the Cofidis affair first broke. What's the bet he gets a 2 year slap on the wrist from UCI.
BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five" in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which ones grow pony tails?
C
Chickasmith
Guest
Must say that this is very surprising news about David
Millar and him fessing up to the use of EPO ... I guess the
story will continue to unfold in the coming few days ...
Looks like Bradley McGee might have a free run to that
prologue yellow jersey and this time wont need a derailled
chain to help him!
"Marty Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_L-
ng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto605927.shtml
>
> Must be that time of the year.
>
> Marty
Millar and him fessing up to the use of EPO ... I guess the
story will continue to unfold in the coming few days ...
Looks like Bradley McGee might have a free run to that
prologue yellow jersey and this time wont need a derailled
chain to help him!
"Marty Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_L-
ng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto605927.shtml
>
> Must be that time of the year.
>
> Marty
M
Marty Wallace
Guest
"Spider1977" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> According to cycling forums quoting l'equipe, Millar has
> now admitted to using EPO.
>
> The big mouth from Britain is in more trouble than the
> early settlers. At least Brad McGee won last years TdF
> prologue fair and square.
>
> Milla rshould be wiped out of the sport for life,
> especially after his vehement denials when the Cofidis
> affair first broke. What's the bet he gets a 2 year slap
> on the wrist from UCI.
>
> BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five"
> in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which
> ones grow pony tails?
>
The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple of
days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
Marty
news:[email protected]...
> According to cycling forums quoting l'equipe, Millar has
> now admitted to using EPO.
>
> The big mouth from Britain is in more trouble than the
> early settlers. At least Brad McGee won last years TdF
> prologue fair and square.
>
> Milla rshould be wiped out of the sport for life,
> especially after his vehement denials when the Cofidis
> affair first broke. What's the bet he gets a 2 year slap
> on the wrist from UCI.
>
> BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five"
> in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which
> ones grow pony tails?
>
The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple of
days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
Marty
>Originally posted by Marty Wallace
>>"Spider1977" wrote in message
>> BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five"
>> in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which
>> ones grow pony tails?
>
>The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple of
>days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
Well I don't.. so who are they?!
hippy
>>"Spider1977" wrote in message
>> BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five"
>> in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which
>> ones grow pony tails?
>
>The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple of
>days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
Well I don't.. so who are they?!
hippy
Originally posted by hippy
>Originally posted by Marty Wallace
>>"Spider1977" wrote in message
>> BTW when are we going to get the names of the "other five"
>> in the AIS affair? Or do we have to wait and see which
>> ones grow pony tails?
>
>The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple of
>days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
Well I don't.. so who are they?!
hippy
Kelly,
Lancaster,
young-guy-Jobe?,
Brown (who wrote in the Age today he wasnt even in the state last year!!!)
and Eadie supposedly
Sounds like the lad is lashing out, purely to make himself look less stupid!
M
Marty Wallace
Guest
"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Originally posted by Marty Wallace
> >>"Spider1977" wrote in message BTW when are we going to
> >>get the names of the "other five" in the AIS affair? Or
> >>do we have to wait and see which ones grow pony tails?
> >
> >The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple
> >of days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
>
> Well I don't.. so who are they?!
>
> hippy
>
Former world champion cyclist Shane Kelly is among five
cyclists named by disgraced former teammate Mark French as
having injected legal vitamin supplements at the Australian
Institute of Sport in Adelaide.
The other cyclists named by French in his statement to the
Court of Arbitration for Sport were Olympic hopefuls Sean
Eadie, Jobie Dajka, Graeme Browne and Brett Lancaster.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/24/10880462-
28556.html
Marty
news:[email protected]...
> >Originally posted by Marty Wallace
> >>"Spider1977" wrote in message BTW when are we going to
> >>get the names of the "other five" in the AIS affair? Or
> >>do we have to wait and see which ones grow pony tails?
> >
> >The names of the "other five" have been out for a couple
> >of days now. You obviously don't read newspapers.
>
> Well I don't.. so who are they?!
>
> hippy
>
Former world champion cyclist Shane Kelly is among five
cyclists named by disgraced former teammate Mark French as
having injected legal vitamin supplements at the Australian
Institute of Sport in Adelaide.
The other cyclists named by French in his statement to the
Court of Arbitration for Sport were Olympic hopefuls Sean
Eadie, Jobie Dajka, Graeme Browne and Brett Lancaster.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/24/10880462-
28556.html
Marty
Have you never made a mistake in your life? A two year ban from performing the one activity to which you have dedicated your life, eliminating the sole form of income you earn, is more than a 'slap on the wrist'. I'm as down on drug cheats as anyone else, but the riders are only one aspect of a bigger picture. Life bans for them are draconian.
How about as well as disciplining riders, we move the focus to the organisations that encourage it. Directeur-sportif? Coach? Manager? Soigneur?
On your first point - please get real. These guys are told and told about the risks they take both with their health and their careers. Cycling is becoming an international joke and is now rightly viewed as a pariah among sports. I find this extremely disappointing.
On your second point I entirely agree with you - give them life bans as well. It's the only way to clean up the whole mess.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I am real G.
Maybe, but this doesn't mean that the punishment should exceed the crime if they do transgress. Also, does the importance of this to you mean you think they shouldn't get life bans if they can show they haven't received education, or worse and quite likely, were part of a structure which actively encouraged doping?
I'm not sure about this. Most people I speak to think that drugs in sport are a bad thing, but not that it tarnishes only cycling. BALCO? Ever seen Inga de Bruyn's expanding jawline? The number of 100m sprint (running) olympic finalists with braces? (7/8)
And drugs don't tarnish the performances of those of us who are clean either (at whatever level of the sport we compete).
If it were entirely true, so would I. To the extent that doping occurs, yes, it is very disappointing.
I don't believe that my point was that officials and directors should be given life bans. Financial penalties would likely be more effective. Life bans negate the possibility of redemption for anyone; they might be appropriate in the most extreme cases, but they offer negligible value as a deterrent and there's no reason the punishment shouldn't fit the crime in sport.
M
Mark Lee
Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
usenet- [email protected] says...
>>Re: Drug-taking:
> Cycling is becoming an international joke and is now
> rightly viewed as a pariah among sports. I find this
> extremely disappointing.
>
Is this because more testing and investigation of cyclists
takes place than in other sports?
Cases in point: English Rugby World Cup team - why did they
look so much more "CUT" than other teams? Was it just the
shirts? American Football: do that many men really grow that
big and strong? American Basketball: how tall? Who was that
Dutch female swimmer - so quick to soften her jawline by
letting her hair out of her cap? The Irish female swimmer?
100m athletics track sprinter - which one? Power Lifters?
What's the story with bodybuilders and Hollywood leading
men? The huge Australian heavyweight weightlifting Gold
medallist (tuna fisherman) who went back to being a "90lb
weakling" after he finished competition?
So you say: where's your proof? That's right - because
cycling seems to do more to catch some of its "cheaters"
than other sports.
Sometimes it appears there is really only one clean rider in
the pro peloton?
--
Mark Lee
usenet- [email protected] says...
>>Re: Drug-taking:
> Cycling is becoming an international joke and is now
> rightly viewed as a pariah among sports. I find this
> extremely disappointing.
>
Is this because more testing and investigation of cyclists
takes place than in other sports?
Cases in point: English Rugby World Cup team - why did they
look so much more "CUT" than other teams? Was it just the
shirts? American Football: do that many men really grow that
big and strong? American Basketball: how tall? Who was that
Dutch female swimmer - so quick to soften her jawline by
letting her hair out of her cap? The Irish female swimmer?
100m athletics track sprinter - which one? Power Lifters?
What's the story with bodybuilders and Hollywood leading
men? The huge Australian heavyweight weightlifting Gold
medallist (tuna fisherman) who went back to being a "90lb
weakling" after he finished competition?
So you say: where's your proof? That's right - because
cycling seems to do more to catch some of its "cheaters"
than other sports.
Sometimes it appears there is really only one clean rider in
the pro peloton?
--
Mark Lee
T
Tamyka Bell
Guest
Mark Lee wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> usenet- [email protected] says...
>
> >>Re: Drug-taking:
> > Cycling is becoming an international joke and is now
> > rightly viewed as a pariah among sports. I find this
> > extremely disappointing.
> >
>
> Is this because more testing and investigation of cyclists
> takes place than in other sports?
>
> Cases in point: English Rugby World Cup team - why did
> they look so much more "CUT" than other teams? Was it just
> the shirts?
Was it a good/bad/different training program? Did they do a
higher level of endurance training to cut their body fat
instead of the strength/speed/agility based programs that
most rugby players do? Did they consume totally legal fat-
metabolisers?
> American Football: do that many men really grow
> that big and strong?
No, they just wear a lot of padding. When you see them
without their padding on they're not that impressive. The
dead giveaway that they're not that huge is their legs.
> American Basketball: how tall? Who was that Dutch
> female swimmer - so quick to soften her jawline by
> letting her hair out of her cap?
Do you mean Inge de Bruen? She's not very pretty, is she.
That's probably why she never got much publicity except for
winning races. Was she really letting her hair out of her
cap to soften her jawline? Dunno about you but I wouldn't
care much about how I looked after winning a huge race. For
a start, I'm a triathlete and the first thing I do when I
hit the beach is rip off my goggles and cap. They're
uncomfortable, the goggles are great for underwater but not
good on land and the swim cap gets very hot. It's also the
first thing I do at the end of a swim session. I don't give
a **** about softening my jawline.
> The Irish female swimmer?
For a chick, I'm huge, particularly for a distance athlete.
I don't use drugs, never have and never will. It's all left
over from when I was fighting, and lifting weights, and gets
maintained with a light conditioning session once a week.
> 100m athletics track sprinter - which one?
They have been tested, they have been found wanting...
> Power Lifters?
Yeah they scare me. They all put their joints at risk so
that they have to lower the bar less e.g. in the bench where
they arch their backs as much as possible. They should all
be taking glucosamine.
> What's the story with bodybuilders and Hollywood
> leading men?
Brad Pitt was airbrushed in Troy. Sorry girls, I know, I too
wanted to believe.
> The huge Australian heavyweight weightlifting Gold
> medallist (tuna fisherman) who went back to being
> a "90lb weakling" after he finished competition?
Yeah that one is a bit sus, don't know the reference, maybe
he got CFS or something?
>
> So you say: where's your proof? That's right - because
> cycling seems to do more to catch some of its "cheaters"
> than other sports.
>
> Sometimes it appears there is really only one clean rider
> in the pro peloton?
>
> --
> Mark Lee
It's a sad thing to say but I guess it's a good thing. I
mean, it's bad if the sport gets portrayed badly as a result
but it's great that they're actually doing the testing,
checking people out and punishing them. Hopefully they can
clean the sport up.
That being said I really don't think it's fair to
question/test people based on their appearances. Most drugs
these days are a lot more hi-tech than just making women
look more masculine, etc., and really, do we need to rub it
in their faces any more? They know they ain't models,
they're athletes.
T
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> usenet- [email protected] says...
>
> >>Re: Drug-taking:
> > Cycling is becoming an international joke and is now
> > rightly viewed as a pariah among sports. I find this
> > extremely disappointing.
> >
>
> Is this because more testing and investigation of cyclists
> takes place than in other sports?
>
> Cases in point: English Rugby World Cup team - why did
> they look so much more "CUT" than other teams? Was it just
> the shirts?
Was it a good/bad/different training program? Did they do a
higher level of endurance training to cut their body fat
instead of the strength/speed/agility based programs that
most rugby players do? Did they consume totally legal fat-
metabolisers?
> American Football: do that many men really grow
> that big and strong?
No, they just wear a lot of padding. When you see them
without their padding on they're not that impressive. The
dead giveaway that they're not that huge is their legs.
> American Basketball: how tall? Who was that Dutch
> female swimmer - so quick to soften her jawline by
> letting her hair out of her cap?
Do you mean Inge de Bruen? She's not very pretty, is she.
That's probably why she never got much publicity except for
winning races. Was she really letting her hair out of her
cap to soften her jawline? Dunno about you but I wouldn't
care much about how I looked after winning a huge race. For
a start, I'm a triathlete and the first thing I do when I
hit the beach is rip off my goggles and cap. They're
uncomfortable, the goggles are great for underwater but not
good on land and the swim cap gets very hot. It's also the
first thing I do at the end of a swim session. I don't give
a **** about softening my jawline.
> The Irish female swimmer?
For a chick, I'm huge, particularly for a distance athlete.
I don't use drugs, never have and never will. It's all left
over from when I was fighting, and lifting weights, and gets
maintained with a light conditioning session once a week.
> 100m athletics track sprinter - which one?
They have been tested, they have been found wanting...
> Power Lifters?
Yeah they scare me. They all put their joints at risk so
that they have to lower the bar less e.g. in the bench where
they arch their backs as much as possible. They should all
be taking glucosamine.
> What's the story with bodybuilders and Hollywood
> leading men?
Brad Pitt was airbrushed in Troy. Sorry girls, I know, I too
wanted to believe.
> The huge Australian heavyweight weightlifting Gold
> medallist (tuna fisherman) who went back to being
> a "90lb weakling" after he finished competition?
Yeah that one is a bit sus, don't know the reference, maybe
he got CFS or something?
>
> So you say: where's your proof? That's right - because
> cycling seems to do more to catch some of its "cheaters"
> than other sports.
>
> Sometimes it appears there is really only one clean rider
> in the pro peloton?
>
> --
> Mark Lee
It's a sad thing to say but I guess it's a good thing. I
mean, it's bad if the sport gets portrayed badly as a result
but it's great that they're actually doing the testing,
checking people out and punishing them. Hopefully they can
clean the sport up.
That being said I really don't think it's fair to
question/test people based on their appearances. Most drugs
these days are a lot more hi-tech than just making women
look more masculine, etc., and really, do we need to rub it
in their faces any more? They know they ain't models,
they're athletes.
T
>Originally posted by Tamyka Bell
>> Cases in point: English Rugby World Cup team - why did
>> they look so much more "CUT" than other teams? Was it just
>> the shirts?
>
>Did they consume totally legal fat-metabolisers?
Is there such a thing? I thought they were all simply
amphetamines?
>It's a sad thing to say but I guess it's a good thing. I
>mean, it's bad if the sport gets portrayed badly as a result
>but it's great that they're actually doing the testing,
>checking people out and punishing them. Hopefully they can
>clean the sport up.
Sort of.. if they keep finding cheats, people will lose all respect for
the sport and not trust future performances.
How do we know, once positive results stop being found, that
the athletes haven't simply discovered a non-detectable drug?
Once the sport is tarnished, like cycling has been, there will, for a long time, remain an element of doubt about the riders..
hippy
>> Cases in point: English Rugby World Cup team - why did
>> they look so much more "CUT" than other teams? Was it just
>> the shirts?
>
>Did they consume totally legal fat-metabolisers?
Is there such a thing? I thought they were all simply
amphetamines?
>It's a sad thing to say but I guess it's a good thing. I
>mean, it's bad if the sport gets portrayed badly as a result
>but it's great that they're actually doing the testing,
>checking people out and punishing them. Hopefully they can
>clean the sport up.
Sort of.. if they keep finding cheats, people will lose all respect for
the sport and not trust future performances.
How do we know, once positive results stop being found, that
the athletes haven't simply discovered a non-detectable drug?
Once the sport is tarnished, like cycling has been, there will, for a long time, remain an element of doubt about the riders..
hippy
That was Dean Luken (sp?)
He 'got' 7 years for Amphetmine importing/trafficking
Hence his loss of weight.
S
Shane Stanley
Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
> How do we know, once positive results stop being found,
> that the athletes haven't simply discovered a non-
> detectable drug?
None of the current "scandals" involve positive drug tests
anyway -- they're all based on admissions, phone taps,
searches, etc. The expression "I've never tested positive"
is becoming one of the most meaningless in sport.
--
Shane Stanley
hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
> How do we know, once positive results stop being found,
> that the athletes haven't simply discovered a non-
> detectable drug?
None of the current "scandals" involve positive drug tests
anyway -- they're all based on admissions, phone taps,
searches, etc. The expression "I've never tested positive"
is becoming one of the most meaningless in sport.
--
Shane Stanley
Most drugs are non-detectable over a certain time-frame. Exogenous EPO can't be detected by any current test after about 2 weeks. Riders go to Spain, or Mexico, South America or Asia, shoot up and train, and come back in a little while to race and test totally clean. Athletes don't need to discover non-detectable drugs when they can second guess the testers and it clears their system quickly anyway. And don't think that because the drugs leave their system they are no longer an advantage - drug takers increase their capacity to train, and so get fitness benefits that last much longer than the time it takes the drugs to leave their body.
And then there are the 'non-detectables' like insulin-like growth factors and human (and other forms of) growth hormones. There are also many other borderline cases like testosterone and some anabolics which are detectable in certain dosages over certain timeframes.
I say blood and urine test every athlete once a week every week from 6 weeks out from Athens until they have competed, and see who wins then. Maybe that's not practical, but if the testers want to get smart, pre-competition testing for some athletes is essential in the 6-1 week prior time period.
>Originally posted by Roadie_scum
<snip>
>I say blood and urine test every athlete once a week every >week from 6 weeks out from Athens until they have competed, >and see who wins then. Maybe that's not practical, but if the >testers want to get smart, pre-competition testing for some >athletes is essential in the 6-1 week prior time period.
With a seemingly impossible task like this, would it be better to
just let athletes free-for-all?
If it's so easy to cheat and "test clean" - why spend all this
money on testing? Why not just let them all do whatever they
want and risk their own lives?
They are still catching people so maybe druggie prep isn't quite
at 100% yet - the athletes need more practice with quantities
and timeframes? Once they start pooling data though, they are
going be totally undetectable and then it'll take huge dollars to
reveal the cheats..
It's all so frustrating (for me at least!) to see some people getting
away with it and some being caught. Either test them so often
there is no chance of cheating or don't test at all! Arr!
Maybe all future Olympics should be like Big Brother... lock all the athletes in a building with enough food and drink for a year and
don't let anything else in. They train for 12 months with what they've got 'inside' and then they compete. It would be similar to
having control tyres and control engines as in some forms of car
racing...
<snip>
>I say blood and urine test every athlete once a week every >week from 6 weeks out from Athens until they have competed, >and see who wins then. Maybe that's not practical, but if the >testers want to get smart, pre-competition testing for some >athletes is essential in the 6-1 week prior time period.
With a seemingly impossible task like this, would it be better to
just let athletes free-for-all?
If it's so easy to cheat and "test clean" - why spend all this
money on testing? Why not just let them all do whatever they
want and risk their own lives?
They are still catching people so maybe druggie prep isn't quite
at 100% yet - the athletes need more practice with quantities
and timeframes? Once they start pooling data though, they are
going be totally undetectable and then it'll take huge dollars to
reveal the cheats..
It's all so frustrating (for me at least!) to see some people getting
away with it and some being caught. Either test them so often
there is no chance of cheating or don't test at all! Arr!
Maybe all future Olympics should be like Big Brother... lock all the athletes in a building with enough food and drink for a year and
don't let anything else in. They train for 12 months with what they've got 'inside' and then they compete. It would be similar to
having control tyres and control engines as in some forms of car
racing...
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