Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?

dw said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Probably, because you'll be more cautious than someone coming from an
exclusively car-centric background.

The first thing most people who go from bicycle to motorbike notice is
how cold they get. Even greater windchill than a bike and no
corresponding heat-producing effort.

(dw) said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Dear DW,

It depends on what kind of riding is involved and what kind
of skills. Bicycling skills help a little, but they aren't
going to make you a good motorcyclist.

Usually, we learn to ride bicycles as children and then
tackle more complicated machinery after we master the basic
trick of balancing as we roll along on two wheels.

Three things make motorcycles dangerously different from
bicycles: they have much trickier controls, they weigh far
more, and they have engines powerful enough to get you into
far worse trouble.

To ride a motorcycle in a straight line down the road and
stop it, you need to work the throttle with your right hand,
the clutch with your left hand, the gear shift with one
foot, and the front hand brake or the rear foot brake. Both
hands and at least one foot are busy working the controls.

Meanwhile, the rider is busy trying to balance a two-wheeled
vehicle that weighs more than he does. Imagine trying to
learn to ride a bicycle around a parking lot with Lance
Armstrong hog-tied across the rear panniers--well, actually,
Lance doesn't really weigh as much as a motorcycle, but you
get the idea.

A bicycle is so light that you can pick it up with one hand
instead of worrying about being unable to keep it from
falling over even with both hands. The sheer weight of the
motorcycle demands an entirely different attitude--you have
to worry about it getting stuck or falling over on you.

(No one is more embarrassed than a motorcyclist who has to
push his machine backwards out of an awkward downhill
spot--unless it's the same motorcyclist who has to ask for
help because his machine is too heavy and the slope is too
steep.)

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.

But with motorcycles, you can get into far more speed and
cornering trouble in the blink of an eye--the much heavier
and harder to handle machine will happily go far too fast
with just a twist of your wrist. And bicycling teaches us
nothing about throttle control, which is crucial on a
motorcycle in a tricky situation. Outside of our dreams and
perhaps ice and snow, it's hard to pedal hard enough to spin
a bicycle's rear tire.

In general, bicycling is much simpler than motorcycling
because there's so much less to worry about. My daily
bicycle ride for about an hour through the countryside is
pleasant exercise, but it wouldn't tax the skills of a child
on a single-speed with a coaster brake. The same child would
need a good deal more training and experience before
attempting the same gentle path on a motorcycle.

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.
-tom

Quoted message said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

If I'm any indication, the answer is no. And I've raced a couple
hundred crits in my lifetime.

Eric Lambi said:

Quoted message said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Quoted message said:

If I'm any indication, the answer is no. And I've raced a couple
hundred crits in my lifetime.

I agree, although I think the opposite is true. A rider who corners
fast on a moto is fast and that skill is transferable to cornering on
a bicycle. That doesn't mean he'll be a strong bicyclist though.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.
-tom

Dear Tom,

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.

Here's another way to look at it. Cornering is crucial on
the annual Pikes Peak hill climb. No one talks about Lance's
fantastic cornering skill in his lightning ascent at 16 mph
of the Alp d'Huez.

And if Armstrong came back down the same road at speed, he
might be doing some impressive cornering, but he'd have
considerably less braking to do into each corner than a
racer on a motorcycle, whose engine would let it pass on the
straights.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random 🙂 )

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't stop to stomp ants when the elephants are stampeding.

dw said...

Quoted message said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

I've logged over 60,000 miles on motorcycles and logged more than most
people on bikes. There are some similarities and some skills that
transfer, but there are some important differences and some habits that
you may have on a bicycle could be disaster on a motorcycle. The most
likely time to have an accident on a motorcycle is when moving at slow
speeds. True, you won't get splattered at very low speeds, but damage to
the bike and less than life threatening injuries to you are no fun
either. Motorcycles are extremely clumsy at slow speeds. You must
balance them perfectly, and use all of your skills and attention to keep
them perpendicular. You can't slouch around like you can on a bike at
slow speeds, because it is bigger than you are and if it starts going
over, you may not be able to stop it. All of this is related to the
weight of motorcycles, which is profoundly different than bicycles.

Another big difference is power. Motorcycles are amazingly quick and
powerful, even the supposedly slow big hogs. You can't compare the
interplay of power and two-wheels to anything else. That is what makes
motorcycles motorcycles. It is a whole new skill set that must be
learned. Motorcycles also have a control set that is unique, and even
different motorcycles may have slightly different control
configurations. The rider must become very skillful in the use of these
controls in a very short time. I recommend going out onto the lowest
traffic road you can find and practice starting, stopping, shifting,
downshifting and emergency stops. Do it until you are sick of it. It may
very well save your life.

Having said all that, if the fledgling rider survives the learning
curve, motorcycles are an enjoyable and reasonably safe way to travel.
Last but not least beware of the fact that what seems like a warm
temperature may be too cold to comfortably ride a motorcycle. When the
sun sets on a summer day, it may be almost unbearably cold traveling at
speed on a motorcycle without a jacket and long pants.

(Eric Lambi) said:

Quoted message said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

If I'm any indication, the answer is no. And I've raced a couple
hundred crits in my lifetime.

Check me if I'm wrong here, but cycling our main priority through a corner is to
maintain momentum. We've got these feeble 1/2 HP motors. With any motorsport the
idea is more often to get through the corner in the way that best sets you up to
power out of it.

Ron

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random 🙂 )

Dear Benjamin,

True, I'm assuming similar courses.

But the speed of most bicycle riding is limited not by the
curves, but by the feeble motors. I doubt, for example, that
Armstrong got up the Alp d'Huez that fast because of his
cornering technique.

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

I know little about bicycle racing, so I'm curious if I'm
missing something here. I certainly don't see much about
cornering here on rec.bicycles.tech.

Carl Fogel

Some people have good all-around athletic ability, and they will be good on
whatever they ride--horses, jet skiis, road bikes, mountain bikes and
motorcycles. Others will look clumsy on a bicycle, and chances are they
would make dangerous motorcycle riders. Chances are that a person without
natural ability and coordination will not develop any skills to carry over.

dw said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

No.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

Pardon me as I use this same anecdote to derive the opposite
interpretation: Richard Virenque, a very good climber and superb
descender with 7 King of the Mountains jerseys, was able to use his
descending skills to steal a stage from Ullrich, who ultimately backed
off rather than risk a little more on the descent.

Ullrich, a notoriously poor descender, won that Tour de France, has
finished on the GC podium in every Tour he has contested except the last
one, has six TdF stage wins, won a Vuelta, an Olympic road race, and is
generally considered a much stronger rider than Virenque.

So in a circumstance where the prize to be won (a TdF stage) was much
more valuable to Virenque than to Ullrich (who had his eyes on the
yellow jersey, not a stuffed lion), and on a day of difficult
conditions, Virenque was able to use his better descent to put Ullrich
in difficulty. It's clear that on that particular day Ullrich's
descending cost him a prize, but it seems that is one of the few days in
which Ullrich's palmares suffered from his failings.

Quoted message said:

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.

At the lousy levels of racing in which I participate, I think that a
decade of riding motorcycles has given me a lot more confidence in
corners than some of my competitors. When the pack takes a tight corner
2 wide, I have no problem holding the inside line and cutting very tight
on the exit. This is a dreadful line from a cornering-speed point of
view, but the other riders are usually cautious enough that I don't lose
anything by this, because my cornering speed is probably a little closer
to the maximum possible on my line than theirs is on their line.

I think the single biggest advantage to be gained from vehicular
motorcycling to vehicular cycling is the situational awareness gained
from having spent time as a vulnerable but low-footprint form of
traffic. If you've spent much time as either a cyclist or a motorcyclist
around cars, you'll find yourself watching for the same dangerous
situations.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

(dw) said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Yes. And no.

If you are used to riding in traffic as a "vehicular cyclist", obeying
traffic laws etc., then you will have developed that part of the skill
set.

If you have developed awareness of what is going on all around you in
traffic without looking straight at it, then that skill crosses over
as well. Cyclists and motorcyclists face many of the same problems
with being seen by car drivers, and the coping strategies are
analogous.

Likewise an ability to instantly evaluate surface conditions and
traction available is an asset you can take with you to your
motorcycle.

However, the dynamics of a full-sized motorcycle are utterly different
than those of a bicycle. If you ride a motorcycle like you would a
bicycle, you will never approach the handling limits of the machine,
and you will put yourself at a disadvantage by not having that range
of maneuvering options available. A motorcycle can safely lean much
farther into a turn than a bicycle, but it requires some muscle at the
bars to make it do that. The braking power and weight distribution of
a motorbike allow you to brake well beyond what would pitch you over
the bars of a bicycle. The throttle just adds another degree of
freedom that you must coordinate with precision if you wish to ride
without mishap.

As a beginning motorcyclist, I made faulty assumptions about already
having learned everything I needed to know in order to go motorcycling
on the street. I crashed, a lot. Sometimes I got hurt. Everything
has healed except my knees, which are now crunchy and noisy and apt to
become sore if I ride my bicycle too vigorously. Now I wish I had
been more willing to accept the role of a rank beginner when I started
motorbiking.

I have been a regular motorcyclist for nine years now, but I have only
four years of accident-free riding behind me. You can learn your way
like I did, or you can seek instruction and use what may seem for a
while to be too much caution in your motorcycle riding.

Take a basic motorcycling course such as the MSF class before you go
out there. You will never regret having had _more_ instruction than
necessary, but you could easily regret not having taken enough
instruction.

Don't start, like I did, with a bike much more abruptly powerful than
your ability to control it. I chose such a bike (a Honda V65 Sabre)
because it fit my large body well, but I would have done better at
first to tolerate a more crowded fit on a gentler machine.

Have your motorcycle inspected and ridden by an experienced rider or a
motorbike mechanic, or you may be unaware of problems with your bike
due to simple unfamiliarity. My first bike's rear suspension was
dilapidated and barely budged when compressed, but I had no basis of
comparison by which to notice that. I believe that I was bucked off
my bike unnecessarily more than once because of it.

Again, I urge you to take an MSF rider course even before you decide
what sort of motorbike you want. A little experience could weigh
heavily in your decision.

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

I ride both, although over the past twenty years the motorcycling has gone
to near-zero (7500 miles on a 1985 VF500 Interceptor) while my cycling runs
about 6,000 miles/year.

I don't notice that much "skill transfer" between the two, to tell you the
truth, other than the motorcycle helping to provide a lot of awareness of
how much more stopping power you have on the front brake of a two-wheeled
machine.

From a safety standpoint, I find the two quite different. On a motorcycle,
*everything* is about visibility. Your eyes are the most important thing
you've got. Obviously they're essential on a bicycle as well, but I find
that it's my ears (hearing) that lets me know of danger coming up behind me,
while on a motorcycle, it's difficult to hear much of anything, what with
the noise of the engine, wind & the helmet's ability to muffle anything
else.

On the other hand, I think riding a motorcycle makes you a *far* safer
driver. On a motorcycle, you're constantly aware of what's going on to your
sides, and assume that nobody can see you. That mean you're always making
sure you have a way out; that you're never, ever in a position where there's
cars on both sides of you. I find myself driving a car the same way. Trust
no one. But that (making sure there's nobody on either side of you) doesn't
apply to riding a bicycle, because cars are most often passing you on the
left, and you're typically on the right-hand edge of the road with no
opportunities (hopefully!) for somebody to pull up on your right.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning
radius, so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and
motorcycles riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are;
I'm just jumping in at random 🙂 )

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

Ya got me; I probably know less about bicycle racing than you do. From
other posts here I gather that this is not generally a major concern.

For me, I can only think of two or three turns that I ride regularly which
require me to use any "cornering skills". I generally slow down way more
than is necessary... I don't think I'm even close to limits of traction,
but I don't really want to find out the hard way (is there an easy way?)

--
Benjamin Lewis

Il brilgue: les toves libricilleux
Se gyrent et frillant dans le guave,
Enmimes sont les gougebosquex,
Et le momerade horgrave.
-- Lewis Carrol, "Through the Looking Glass"

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Eric Lambi) said:

Quoted message said:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

If I'm any indication, the answer is no. And I've raced a couple
hundred crits in my lifetime.

Check me if I'm wrong here, but cycling our main priority through a corner

is to

Quoted message said:

maintain momentum. We've got these feeble 1/2 HP motors. With any

motorsport the

Quoted message said:

idea is more often to get through the corner in the way that best sets you

up to

Quoted message said:

power out of it.

Ron

After watching the MotoGP races, you can see the difference between the
riding styles of the 125 cc riders ("classical" lines) and the big boys
(point and go.) Now if they only had a 12.5cc class, we might be able to
compete!
Hugh Fenton

Quoted message said:

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.

Are you riding your kids BMX bike on the little hill behind your house?
When I'm descending 8% grades, I sometimes pass motorcyclists at 55 mph.
Bicycling, like what we are talking in this newsgroup (not kids BMX bikes)
takes much more talent. For one, your center of gravity is so much higher
than on a motorcycle.

Cornering in a climb doesn't take much skill on a bicycle, but on a fast
descent it does require good technique. Cornering on a climb with a
motorcycle takes good skills.

The motorcycle brakes three ways, one is to use the mechanical front and
rear brakes, and the other is to use the engine's compression, and third,
one can get out of the tucked position and sit up. On fast sweeping
descents on the motorcycle, I use the engine's compression and sometimes sit
up to brake.

I can also lean the motorcycle more over in a turn than I can a bicycle. At
times, I could touch the knee on the ground in some corners with a
motorcycle, try that on a bicycle.

oh btw Carl, if you want to see some good corning skills on a bicycle, catch
the 1986 Tour on tape, when LeMond and Hinault were descending at 50+ mph.
Pretty awesome, corning skills, the two were going head to head, there were
no other riders that could keep up.
-tom

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear Tom,

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.

Here's another way to look at it. Cornering is crucial on
the annual Pikes Peak hill climb. No one talks about Lance's
fantastic cornering skill in his lightning ascent at 16 mph
of the Alp d'Huez.

And if Armstrong came back down the same road at speed, he
might be doing some impressive cornering, but he'd have
considerably less braking to do into each corner than a
racer on a motorcycle, whose engine would let it pass on the
straights.

Carl Fogel