Dura Ace BB

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Keven Ruf, Jun 20, 2003.

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  1. Keven Ruf

    Keven Ruf Guest

    It's 2003. Is the Dura Ace bottom bracket still giving people trouble? I searched the newsgroup and
    found a few people complaining. Some responses seemed to sugges that the BB itself is not bad, it's
    just not the cartridge BB like the Ultegra that you crank in hard and forget about until it goes
    bad. You need to actually adjust the Dura Ace model. That does not pose a problem for me since I
    have been using standard cup and cone bb's for a long time. What is the latest word?

    --Keven.
     
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  2. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    "Keven Ruf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > It's 2003. Is the Dura Ace bottom bracket still giving people trouble? I searched the newsgroup
    > and found a few people complaining. Some responses seemed to sugges that the BB itself is not bad,
    > it's just not the cartridge BB like the Ultegra that you crank in hard and forget about until it
    > goes bad. You need to actually adjust the Dura Ace model. That does not pose a problem for me
    > since I have been using standard cup and cone bb's for a long time. What is the latest word?
    >

    Just try overhauling one some time. You'll stick with Ultegra. We won't service them in our shop
    since labor is so high. We recommend a replacement with Ultegra or, if they insist, a new DA. Nobody
    will pay our price for overhaul (I ain't telling!).

    --
    Robin Hubert <[email protected]
     
  3. Pete

    Pete Guest

    On 20 Jun 2003 14:50:37 -0700, [email protected] (Keven Ruf) wrote:

    >It's 2003. Is the Dura Ace bottom bracket still giving people trouble? I searched the newsgroup and
    >found a few people complaining. Some responses seemed to sugges that the BB itself is not bad, it's
    >just not the cartridge BB like the Ultegra that you crank in hard and forget about until it goes
    >bad. You need to actually adjust the Dura Ace model. That does not pose a problem for me since I
    >have been using standard cup and cone bb's for a long time. What is the latest word?

    ---------

    The trick is to >>NEVER<< adjust the bb tight... or even "net".

    Did I mention to >>NEVER, EVER, EVER<< run it tight? <Bg>

    Seriously... the parts in the bb are not overly accurate; if you put the spindle shaft between
    centers, and check all the faces (the ground face the tiny ball bearing races shoulder against, the
    races themselves after they are installed, etc.), you will find they they simply aren't that
    accurate. Very UN-Shimano-like. These parts should be perfect -- they are not.

    Don't forget that since there is really no way to "radially" adjust the bb (since radial movement is
    essentially controlled by the needle bearings, which are not adjustable), the only way to check for
    play is to grab the center of the crankarm on the drive side and move the spindle back and forth
    *axially*. If you grab the crankarms and attempt to "rock" the cranks (as you normally would when
    checking for bb noise, etc) you will get a "false feel" on the adjustment.

    Make sure the bb shell is true (Campy tool), clean even a new bb assembly thoroughly and re-grease
    using a very high-quality ball bearing grease (Chevron makes a good one), and then assemble the bb.

    Do >>NOT<< adjust it tight or even snug (I think I mentioned that before <g>). The axial play will
    not be consistent around the 360 degrees of rotation no matter how perfect your bb shell is. Set
    the *tightest* spot in the rotation to just have a slight, but discernable amount of axial play
    (which means the loosest spot will have noticeable axial play). and run it.

    In my opinion (note qualifier), you will get the BEST life out of the bb using this method.

    And.... hope that the 2004 D/A parts are available very soon!

    PM
     
  4. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:23:54 GMT, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Did I mention to >>NEVER, EVER, EVER<< run it tight? <Bg>
    >
    >Seriously... the parts in the bb are not overly accurate; if you put the spindle shaft between
    >centers, and check all the faces (the ground face the tiny ball bearing races shoulder against, the
    >races themselves after they are installed, etc.), you will find they they simply aren't that
    >accurate. Very UN-Shimano-like. These parts should be perfect -- they are not.

    >And.... hope that the 2004 D/A parts are available very soon!

    Is it just me, or does this sound like a pile-o-crap of a BB, especially for something
    top-of-the-line as DA?

    Jasper
     
  5. keven-<< It's 2003. Is the Dura Ace bottom bracket still giving people trouble? >><BR><BR>

    If installed onto a prepped BB shell, with lots of grease, and adjusted well, it is fine. If ridden
    a lot in the wet, it needs a lot of overhauling. Tends to collect water and tends to rust.

    If treated/maintained like a BB from the 70s or 80s, it is fine.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  6. Robin-<< We won't service them in our shop since labor is so high. We recommend a replacement with
    Ultegra or, if they insist, a new DA. Nobody will pay our price for overhaul (I ain't telling!).
    >><BR><BR>

    We will. Add $10 to a normal cup and cone BB overhaul-$30 for an overhaul of the DA or older XTR.
    $20 for cup and cone, $10 for cart bearing ones.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  7. Pete-<< And.... hope that the 2004 D/A parts are available very soon!
    >><BR><BR>

    BUT ya gotta get a whole crankset(lots of $$$). shimano will not be supporting this BB for long. As
    soon as the 2004 BMX road crank gets here, you can say adios to the DA 7700 BB...Ultegras will be
    around until 2005, then it too will be gone...

    Too bad cranks don't wear out cuz in a few years, no 'octolink' BBs will be in existence..shimano
    obsolecence stricks again.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  8. Kenny Lee

    Kenny Lee Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Pete-<< And.... hope that the 2004 D/A parts are available very soon!
    >
    >>><BR><BR>
    >
    >
    > BUT ya gotta get a whole crankset(lots of $$$). shimano will not be supporting this BB for long.
    > As soon as the 2004 BMX road crank gets here, you can say adios to the DA 7700 BB...Ultegras will
    > be around until 2005, then it too will be gone...
    >
    > Too bad cranks don't wear out cuz in a few years, no 'octolink' BBs will be in existence..shimano
    > obsolecence stricks again.
    >
    > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
    Boy, am I glad I went Campy. Phil Wood kicks a lot of booty too!

    Kenny Lee
     
  9. Peter Chisholm looked into his crystal ball and saw:

    >> this BB for long. As soon as the 2004 BMX road crank gets here, you=20 can say adios to the DA
    >> 7700 BB...Ultegras will be around until 2005, then it =

    >> too will be gone...
    >>
    >> Too bad cranks don't wear out cuz in a few years, no 'octolink' BBs=20 will be in
    >> existence..shimano obsolecence stricks again.

    Kenny Lee wrote:

    > Boy, am I glad I went Campy. Phil Wood kicks a lot of booty too!

    Well, don't believe every prediction you hear. If one were to go by=20 recent past history, Shimano
    has a _very_ much better track record than=20 Campagnolo.

    Campagnolo is only just barely supporting their 8-speed stuff. There=20 are no 8-speed hubs or
    shifters in current production, though newer=20 shifters can be modified to 8-speed. There are three
    8-speed cassettes=20 available: 12-23, 13-23 and 13-26. If you want to upgrade an 8-speed=20 system
    you need a new rear wheel. Used to be possible to upgrade the=20 Campagnolo hubs from 8-speed, but
    the parts are no longer available.

    By contrast, Shimano offers several different types of 8-speed shifters, =

    along with 10 different cassette gear combinations ranging from 12-21 to =

    11-34. Shimano 8-speed hubs also accept 9-speed cassettes with no=20 modification.

    Furthermore, unlike Campagnolo, Shimano is still supporting its 7-speed=20 equipment! They still
    make various sorts of 7 speed shifters, offers 14 =

    different 7-speed cassettes ranging from 11-19 to 11-34. Shimano=20 7-speed hubs can be converted to
    8/9-speed by the replacement of the=20 freehub body, a part that costs less than a cassete.

    Sheldon "That's A Bum Rap" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------------+
    | The poet Henry O'Meara (1848-1904) was my great-grandfather | I=92ve put his book "Ballads of
    | America and Other Poems" | on the Web at: http://sheldonbrown.com/omeara |
    +---------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  10. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    > Pete-<< And.... hope that the 2004 D/A parts are available very soon!
    >
    >>><BR><BR>
    >>
    >
    > BUT ya gotta get a whole crankset(lots of $$$). shimano will not be supporting this BB for long.
    > As soon as the 2004 BMX road crank gets here, you can say adios to the DA 7700 BB...Ultegras will
    > be around until 2005, then it too will be gone...
    >
    > Too bad cranks don't wear out cuz in a few years, no 'octolink' BBs will be in existence..shimano
    > obsolecence stricks again.

    It depends on what you mean by "wear out". Cranks can certainly fatigue and break. There are many
    reports of the current "hollow" Dura-Ace cranks doing just that. There have also been a few reports
    of the of the spline interfacing wearing out and loosening - not as frequently as some predicted,
    but it does happen.

    Nothing lasts forever.

    Mark McMaster [email protected]
     
  11. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    "Leve fit, quod bene fertur, onus." - Ovid On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:23:54 GMT, Pete
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Seriously... the parts in the bb are not overly accurate; if you put the spindle shaft between
    >centers, and check all the faces (the ground face the tiny ball bearing races shoulder against, the
    >races themselves after they are installed, etc.), you will find they they simply aren't that
    >accurate. Very UN-Shimano-like. These parts should be perfect -- they are not.

    There's little to love about Shimano's 7700 crankbearing, but my experience is not as you recite. If
    what you describe were the norm, I think we'd find complaints about the conspicuous results of such
    inaccuracies (chainrings appearing to wobble and/or be out-of-round) much more prevalent.

    >Don't forget that since there is really no way to "radially" adjust the bb (since radial movement
    >is essentially controlled by the needle bearings, which are not adjustable), the only way to check
    >for play is to grab the center of the crankarm on the drive side and move the spindle back and
    >forth *axially*. If you grab the crankarms and attempt to "rock" the cranks (as you normally would
    >when checking for bb noise, etc) you will get a "false feel" on the adjustment.

    In a correctly installed 7700 bottom bracket, the needle bearings have no significant role in
    locating the spindle in the cups. That function is performed by the spindle cones, cup races and
    ball bearings just as it is with any cup/ball/cone type crankbearing. The needle bearings function
    mainly just to support the long spindle overhangs when loads increase to the point where the spindle
    is subject to bending.

    >Make sure the bb shell is true (Campy tool),

    This is critical if the 7700 bottom bracket will have a full service life. Finding *any* resistance
    to installing a set of Campy's threaded bottom bracket guides (# 724/1 and 724/2) likely means that
    demands will be put on the needle bearings (and the spindle and cup races on which they run) such
    that will shorten the unit's lifespan. It is this hypersensitivity to having both cups oriented so
    precisely in the same axis that causes most of the problems.

    >clean even a new bb assembly thoroughly and re-grease using a very high-quality ball bearing grease
    >(Chevron makes a good one), and then assemble the bb.
    >
    >Do >>NOT<< adjust it tight or even snug (I think I mentioned that before <g>). The axial play will
    > not be consistent around the 360 degrees of rotation no matter how perfect your bb shell is.
    > Set the *tightest* spot in the rotation to just have a slight, but discernable amount of axial
    > play (which means the loosest spot will have noticeable axial play). and run it.

    If the bottom bracket shell is *perfectly* manicured, you can adjust for bearing preload of the
    bearing balls in the time-honored way (no detectable jiggle at the end of the crank). The
    presence of the needle bearings deadens the feel somewhat, but if you're careful the traditional
    method works.

    -------------------------------
    http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
    twentieth year. Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
    -------------------------------
     
  12. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:57:56 GMT, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Furthermore, unlike Campagnolo, Shimano is still supporting its 7-speed equipment! They still make
    >various sorts of 7 speed shifters, offers 14 different 7-speed cassettes ranging from 11-19 to
    >11-34. Shimano 7-speed hubs can be converted to 8/9-speed by the replacement of the freehub body, a
    >part that costs less than a cassete.

    Shimano even still make over-the-bar shifters for 5,6,7[1], and at least 7 and possibly even 6
    freewheels. Now in a way, this is hardly surprising, with the fact that Shimano has *so* much of the
    market, they also have a much bigger market share in Old Stuff, and thus also the threshold for
    continuing/stopping production is reached much more easily.

    Jasper

    [1] Assuming, there, since you still stock 'em.
     
  13. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On 20 Jun 2003 14:50:37 -0700, [email protected] (Keven Ruf) wrote:
    > >It's 2003. Is the Dura Ace bottom bracket still giving people trouble? I searched the
    > >newsgroup and found a few people complaining. Some responses seemed to sugges that the BB
    > >itself is not bad, it's just not the cartridge BB like the Ultegra that you crank in hard and
    > >forget about until it goes bad. You need to actually adjust the Dura Ace model. That does not
    > >pose a problem for me since I have been using standard cup and cone bb's for a long time. What
    > >is the latest word?

    "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > The trick is to >>NEVER<< adjust the bb tight... or even "net".
    >
    > Did I mention to >>NEVER, EVER, EVER<< run it tight? <Bg>
    >
    > Seriously... the parts in the bb are not overly accurate; if you put the spindle shaft between
    > centers, and check all the faces (the ground face the tiny ball bearing races shoulder against,
    > the races themselves after they are installed, etc.), you will find they they simply aren't that
    > accurate. Very UN-Shimano-like. These parts should be perfect -- they are not.
    >
    > Don't forget that since there is really no way to "radially" adjust the bb (since radial movement
    > is essentially controlled by the needle bearings, which are not adjustable), the only way to check
    > for play is to grab the center of the crankarm on the drive side and move the spindle back and
    > forth *axially*. If you grab the crankarms and attempt to "rock" the cranks (as you normally would
    > when checking for bb noise, etc) you will get a "false feel" on the adjustment.
    >
    > Make sure the bb shell is true (Campy tool), clean even a new bb assembly thoroughly and
    > re-grease using a very high-quality ball bearing grease (Chevron makes a good one), and then
    > assemble the bb.
    >
    > Do >>NOT<< adjust it tight or even snug (I think I mentioned that before <g>). The axial play will
    > not be consistent around the 360 degrees of rotation no matter how perfect your bb shell is.
    > Set the *tightest* spot in the rotation to just have a slight, but discernable amount of axial
    > play (which means the loosest spot will have noticeable axial play). and run it.
    >
    > In my opinion (note qualifier), you will get the BEST life out of the bb using this method.
    >
    > And.... hope that the 2004 D/A parts are available very soon!

    When you write: ">>NEVER<< adjust the bb tight... or even "net" " I have no idea what "net" means in
    this context. Could you elucidate?

    And "never adjust the BB tight"?? Well, _too_ tight would be inadvisable, of course, but a slight
    preload is completely appropriate to a crank bearing assembly. Just snug enough to take up the
    sideplay will exhibit uneven wear under load. A slight preload precludes that, giving even wear and
    longer service life.

    That question is one of degree.

    Back to the OP's question, the overly-complex DA BB takes more time to clean and assemble than the
    traditional loose-bearing design without any offsetting advantages. That would be IMHO a disservice
    to the consumer, who pays more for the part, pays lots more for service, and gets no better
    performance nor longer life. It was Robin, IIRC, who pointed out the service time, and concomitantly
    the service charges, can be surprisingly steep .

    All those things leave one chary to recommend this component over simpler, cheaper units
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  14. Richard Chan

    Richard Chan Guest

    Even though the DA BB is cup & cone, there is no doubt the installation and adjustment are more
    tedious due to the tight tolerance. There should be two camps: lazy or frugal. For me, I get them
    cheap (buy them at the right price). I install it once, use plenty of grease and forget them. If you
    want to maintain it, leave the fixed cup in place, remove the assembly from the left side, clean all
    parts with solvent, lay the frame on its side (fixed cup down) and flush out the gunk. Reinstall and
    adjust. This should last you a long time.
     
  15. Just a reminder that the problems mentioned only apply to the D-A double BB. The D-A triple BB is a
    nice sturdy cartridge type like all other splined Shimano BBs.
     
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