Espirit de corps

Just zis Guy said:

"Trevor Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMHO there is an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group and it's (probably) similar
in uk.tosspot

Seen the TRL report posted earlier?

trl.co.ukTRL549.pdfOpen ↗

The attitude exists for real on the roads.

I've not read the report but will fetch it next time my link is up.

However, I'm well aware that there is an attitude but I don't think it's one that is confined to
motorists towards cyclists, it's also there towards motorists from cyclists. It is very true,
though, that the motorist is at an advantage in this ongoing hostility - they are after all in their
ton of steel and pretty well invulnerable to anything the cyclist can throw at them, a few
handsignals from behind the handlebars hardly contains the same degree of implicit threat as those
coming from behind the wheel, and a close undertake on the left by a cyclist hardly endangers a
motorist to the point where he's going to tell all his mates how he was nearly killed by a passing
bike on the way into work this morning.

This imbalance alters our perspective of things, though. Many cyclists feel that they are being
targeted agressively by motorists because of the imbalance of risk. If a BMW passes you with 6" to
spare, you're going to feel pretty scared. If you pass a BMW with 6" to spare, the driver's going to
feel pretty annoyed. Result: Cyclist thinks BMW drivers are out to kill him and BMW driver thinks
cyclists are annoying turds out to scratch their shiny new car. Both attitudes arising from the same
lack of care on either side.

Perhaps the word "unjustifiable" was a poor choice. I do think, though, that the behaviour of
cyclists "in general" is no more to be commended than that of motorisits "in general", and that's
why I think it's "unjustifiable". Perhaps I should have chosen a different word, perhaps
"unsanctionable"?

Of course there are extreme positions on either side of the debate, Paul [censored] for example, and
red light jumping pavement cyclists on the other. PS, though, is a stupid, dangerous tosspot who
should be flogged to within an inch of his life before being locked in the deepest, darkest dungeon,
and red-light jumping pavement cyclists should be flogged to within an inch of their lives before
being locked in the deepest darkest dungeon.

Trev

Nick Kew said:

In article <[email hidden]>, one of infinite monkeys at the keyboard of

Trevor Barton said:

IMHO there is an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group and it's (probably) similar
in uk.tosspot, in which in this group (drivers == bad) and (cyclists == good)

The evidence seems to be against you, especially on the second part of that statement. Look at the
blanket-intolerance on this group of cycling misdemeanours - even occasionally jumping to
unjustified anti-cyclist conclusions (pavement cycling isn't necessarily bad or illegal - just
usually).

What blanket intolerance?

Some months ago i posted about two instances of cyclist putting me in danger (one pavement cyclist
who all but hit me travelling at speed and another who almost hit my daughter on a pelican crossing)
there were numerous posts in defence of the pavement cyclist and a good few in mitigation for the
pelican guy.

I'm with Trevor: an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group. "Two unmotorised wheels
good: everything else bad!"

pk

Pete Barrett said:

(dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) said:

But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding assertively is
riding safely.

I ride assertively. You ride aggressively. He (she or it) rides like a complete w*nker.

Isn't that the normal conjugation of the verb? <s>

And, not unrelatedly, one of the Honda adverts, which finishes "aren't we all just trying to get
somewhere"?

Just zis Guy said:

"Trevor Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMHO there is an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group and it's (probably) similar
in uk.tosspot

Seen the TRL report posted earlier?

trl.co.ukTRL549.pdfOpen ↗

The attitude exists for real on the roads.

Just as the attitude of cyclists ignoring pelican crossings, and pedestrians crossing on traffic
lights exists for real on the roads. And cyclists acting aggressively and dangerously to other
cyclists and walkers exists off road.

pk

Just zis Guy said:

"Trevor Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMHO there is an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group and it's (probably) similar
in uk.tosspot

Seen the TRL report posted earlier?

trl.co.ukTRL549.pdfOpen ↗

The attitude exists for real on the roads.

I've not read the report but will fetch it next time my link is up.

However, I'm well aware that there is an attitude but I don't think it's one that is confined to
motorists towards cyclists, it's also there towards motorists from cyclists. It is very true,
though, that the motorist is at an advantage in this ongoing hostility - they are after all in their
ton of steel and pretty well invulnerable to anything the cyclist can throw at them, a few
handsignals from behind the handlebars hardly contains the same degree of implicit threat as those
coming from behind the wheel, and a close undertake on the left by a cyclist hardly endangers a
motorist to the point where he's going to tell all his mates how he was nearly killed by a passing
bike on the way into work this morning.

This imbalance alters our perspective of things, though. Many cyclists feel that they are being
targeted agressively by motorists because of the imbalance of risk. If a BMW passes you with 6" to
spare, you're going to feel pretty scared. If you pass a BMW with 6" to spare, the driver's going to
feel pretty annoyed. Result: Cyclist thinks BMW drivers are out to kill him and BMW driver thinks
cyclists are annoying turds out to scratch their shiny new car. Both attitudes arising from the same
lack of care on either side.

Perhaps the word "unjustifiable" was a poor choice. I do think, though, that the behaviour of
cyclists "in general" is no more to be commended than that of motorisits "in general", and that's
why I think it's "unjustifiable". Perhaps I should have chosen a different word, perhaps
"unsanctionable"?

Of course there are extreme positions on either side of the debate, Paul [censored] for example, and
red light jumping pavement cyclists on the other. PS, though, is a stupid, dangerous tosspot who
should be flogged to within an inch of his life before being locked in the deepest, darkest dungeon,
and red-light jumping pavement cyclists should be flogged to within an inch of their lives before
being locked in the deepest darkest dungeon.

Trev

Trevor Barton said:

I do it by second nature, really,

Me too, Trevor

Politeness doesn't hurt, IMO.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

Pete Barrett said:

(dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) said:

But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding assertively is
riding safely.

I ride assertively. You ride aggressively. He (she or it) rides like a complete w*nker.

Isn't that the normal conjugation of the verb? <s>

And, not unrelatedly, one of the Honda adverts, which finishes "aren't we all just trying to get
somewhere"?

you know? said:

Seen the TRL report posted earlier?

trl.co.ukTRL549.pdfOpen ↗

Those graphs roughly two thirds through the report are quite interseting. They seem to suggest that
a cyclist, riding confidently near the kerb, is treated most kindly by motorists. I would have
preferred cyclists riding in an assertive manner to be treated more kindly, but so be it.

I also found it curious that "commercial drivers" or whatever the phrase used was are the most
anti-cyclist when they are, IME and that of others in this NG, AFAIK, think that HGVers, and the
like, are some of the better drivers around.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

Trevor Barton wrote:
! I do it by second

Quoted message said:

nature, really, my mother trained me as a teenager by just stopping in front of doors and looking
at me expectantly until I remembered :-)

ar you my brother?

pk

Trevor Barton said:

I do it by second nature, really,

Me too, Trevor

Politeness doesn't hurt, IMO.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

Just zis Guy said:

"Trevor Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMHO there is an unjustifiable "us and them" attitude in this group and it's (probably) similar
in uk.tosspot

Seen the TRL report posted earlier?

trl.co.ukTRL549.pdfOpen ↗

The attitude exists for real on the roads.

I've not read the report but will fetch it next time my link is up.

However, I'm well aware that there is an attitude but I don't think it's one that is confined to
motorists towards cyclists, it's also there towards motorists from cyclists. It is very true,
though, that the motorist is at an advantage in this ongoing hostility - they are after all in their
ton of steel and pretty well invulnerable to anything the cyclist can throw at them, a few
handsignals from behind the handlebars hardly contains the same degree of implicit threat as those
coming from behind the wheel, and a close undertake on the left by a cyclist hardly endangers a
motorist to the point where he's going to tell all his mates how he was nearly killed by a passing
bike on the way into work this morning.

This imbalance alters our perspective of things, though. Many cyclists feel that they are being
targeted agressively by motorists because of the imbalance of risk. If a BMW passes you with 6" to
spare, you're going to feel pretty scared. If you pass a BMW with 6" to spare, the driver's going to
feel pretty annoyed. Result: Cyclist thinks BMW drivers are out to kill him and BMW driver thinks
cyclists are annoying turds out to scratch their shiny new car. Both attitudes arising from the same
lack of care on either side.

Perhaps the word "unjustifiable" was a poor choice. I do think, though, that the behaviour of
cyclists "in general" is no more to be commended than that of motorisits "in general", and that's
why I think it's "unjustifiable". Perhaps I should have chosen a different word, perhaps
"unsanctionable"?

Of course there are extreme positions on either side of the debate, Paul [censored] for example, and
red light jumping pavement cyclists on the other. PS, though, is a stupid, dangerous tosspot who
should be flogged to within an inch of his life before being locked in the deepest, darkest dungeon,
and red-light jumping pavement cyclists should be flogged to within an inch of their lives before
being locked in the deepest darkest dungeon.

Trev

Trevor Barton wrote:
! I do it by second

Quoted message said:

nature, really, my mother trained me as a teenager by just stopping in front of doors and looking
at me expectantly until I remembered :-)

ar you my brother?

pk

Pete Barrett said:

(dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) said:

But I wouldn't describe assertive cycling as being aggressive. Riding assertively is
riding safely.

I ride assertively. You ride aggressively. He (she or it) rides like a complete w*nker.

Isn't that the normal conjugation of the verb? <s>

And, not unrelatedly, one of the Honda adverts, which finishes "aren't we all just trying to get
somewhere"?

Trevor Barton said:

I do it by second nature, really,

Me too, Trevor

Politeness doesn't hurt, IMO.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.

chris harrison said:

It's a small gene pool 🙁

Gene puddle?

I'll get me coat...

--
Guy
===
WARNING: May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Trevor Barton wrote:
! I do it by second

Quoted message said:

nature, really, my mother trained me as a teenager by just stopping in front of doors and looking
at me expectantly until I remembered :-)

ar you my brother?

pk

chris harrison said:

It's a small gene pool 🙁

Gene puddle?

I'll get me coat...

--
Guy
===
WARNING: May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

chris harrison said:

It's a small gene pool 🙁

Gene puddle?

I'll get me coat...

--
Guy
===
WARNING: May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Richard Goodman said:

"Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Thompson" <[email hidden] (change warm for

hot)>typed

Quoted message said:

If you wheel your bike past a red light, you *are* breaking the law...

Weell, it depends how you do it. If you get off before the stop line, lift it onto the pavement,
pass the stop line on the pavement, put it back on the road after passing the stop line and then
cross as a pedestrian you're not.

I always understood you had to pick your bike up too or you would still be in charge of a vehicle,
instead of carrying a heap of bike bits. I've heard it so many times its perhaps a myth.

John B

Michael MacClancy said:

"Vincent Wilcox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Trevor Barton wrote:

<extreme snipping>

Quoted message said:

Motorists don't deliberately target cyclists, irrespective

of the stories that are often told here - those same stupid

Quoted message said:

motorists who star in anecdotes in here will be acting just as

aggressively towards all other road users.

Quoted message said:

Don't believe it.

Is that a command or a statement?

Anyway if you honestly believe that "those same stupid motorists who star in anecdotes in here
will be acting just as aggressively towards all other road users" is untrue you must be so
paranoid that a visit to the quack is in order.
___
Michael MacClancy

Do you honestly believe that "those same stupid motorists who star in anecdotes here" would behave
in that manner to say a chapter of Hells Angels or an armoured vehicle?

I would tend towards paranoia as being healthier on the road than optimism. "Oohh maybe this car
pulling close to me want's to congratulate me for cycling and say hello."