Expen$ive Component$ == Bike Bling?

Pinnah asked:

Quoted message said:

Are there discernable differences between expensive components like
Campy or DuraAce and less expensive stuff like Shimano Sora?

The biggest differences will be in ease of use. Higher end gets you
smoother, quicker, more reliable shifting than Sora. Some people find
the thumb shifter thing on Sora to be awkward; you can't use these from
the drops. There's no trim adjustment on the Sora. The plastic on Sora
won't last as long as higher-priced metal components. The finish on
Sora doesn't look all that great.

That said, there's about 5000 miles on my 2003 Sora equipped commuter
bike and it's all performed almost flawlessly. My only complaint is
that it takes some effort and lots of "throw" on the front derailer to
push the chain from the granny ring up to the middle ring. The weight
penalty is only important if you're racing.

RFM

pinnah said:

Are there discernable differences between expensive components like
Campy or DuraAce and less expensive stuff like Shimano Sora?

Aside from the effects on the wallet from their purchase, the
differences are discernable to those who know what they're looking
for, but the visible differences might not have compelling
significance to someone who was examining them dispassionately. The
performance differences are minimal if any in most (but not all)
cases.

Quoted message said:

If so, what are they and how good of a rider do you need to be to able
to tell the difference?

A very picky and observant poor rider might notice them more readily
than a tolerant, uncritical enthusiast or racer.

Quoted message said:

NOTE: This is a follow-up to a recent inquiry I made about upgrading
components for increased speed that I (a recreational cyclist) might
be able to notice. There were several helpful suggestions (which I
appreciate) but the overall concensus is that component quality is not
linked to speed. The possible exceptions was that lighter weight
stuff might be noticable on longer climbs.

So, this begs an obvious question. Is there *any* advantage to more
expensive components other than weight?

IMO, in most cases, no.

Quoted message said:

To get the juices going, here is a starting point...

+ Wheels, spokes and rims?
- Weight, durability, braking smoothness, braking power?

32 or 36 conventional spokes will do the job.

Quoted message said:

+ Hubs?
- Speed/efficiency, durability, lower maintenance?

I am unable to articulate an advantage that would make a difference in
speed due to hub design.

Quoted message said:

+ Bottom brackets?
- Speed/efficiency, durability, lower maintenance?

Aside from "avoid cheap [censored]", BB design just needs to be appropriate
for the type of cranks in use. Durability varies, but not always as a
function of price. (And some "cheap [censored]" works pretty well, for that
matter.)

Quoted message said:

+ Brake calipers?
- Braking power, braking feel, adjustability, durability?

Pad material has as much of an effect as anything else.

Quoted message said:

+ Brake levers/brifters?
- Braking power, braking feel, repairability, durability,
adjustability?

No opinion.

Quoted message said:

+ Crank sets?
- Shifting performance, weight, durability, stiffness (power)?

Lighter is weaker, in my experience.

Quoted message said:

+ Front derailleurs?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

This is the one place where I've found that buying good stuff may be
worth a few bucks, but I wouldn't go above 105 with my own money.

Quoted message said:

+ Rear derailluers?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Avoid cheap [censored]; match the der to the shifter. Mid-range price
levels contain many good choices.

Quoted message said:

+ Bars, stems and posts?
- Weight, stiffness, shock absorbtion/comfort, adjustability,
suspension?

IME, little difference outside weight except for a few that are flexy
(sometimes not cheap ones), though on seat posts there can be some
nasty surprises if you shop too cheap.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

IME, little difference outside weight except for a few that are flexy
(sometimes not cheap ones), though on seat posts there can be some
nasty surprises if you shop too cheap.

Examples, please.

My two cents: single-bolt seatposts, especially on mountain bikes, are to be
avoided.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article <[email hidden]>,

pinnah said:

Are there discernable differences between expensive components like
Campy or DuraAce and less expensive stuff like Shimano Sora?

A frameset built up to your specifications will fit and suit your tastes
better than an off the shelf bike. Machined rims provide better braking
when wet. Hand built wheels stay true better. Butted spokes build into
stronger wheels. Ball bearing brake calipers work better. Campy brifters
have a better user interface than Shimano and are rebuildable for a few
dollars.

--
<a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/">Home Page</a>
In 1913 the inflation adjusted (in 2003 dollars) exemption for single people
was $54,567, married couples' exemption $72,756, the next $363,783 was taxed
at 1%, and earnings over $9,094,578 were taxed at the top rate of 7%.

"pinnah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Are there discernable differences between expensive components like
Campy or DuraAce and less expensive stuff like Shimano Sora?

For the racer, sure. For the average rider, depends. Dura Ace and Record are
lighter and supposedly shift faster and work better. However, I ride a $300
Ibex with a no-name Shimano triple, and it works flawlessly. YMMV.

pinnah said:

Are there discernable differences between expensive components like
Campy or DuraAce and less expensive stuff like Shimano Sora?

Weight is the most major difference. Expensive components are not always
more durable, especially where more delicate designs or materials are used
to save weight. Steel is strong and hard-wearing as well as being cheap.
However, some of the best of the best is both lightweight and highly
durable thanks to clever design and expensive technology.

Quoted message said:

If so, what are they and how good of a rider do you need to be to able
to tell the difference?

You don't have to be a good rider to appreciate and enjoy a light bike or
to find any extra gears or twiddly bits useful. The weight difference is
noticeable when climbing and accelerating, and the handling will just feel
that bit nicer in general.

However, your own weight is a big big factor, of course (re bike : person
ratio), and just having lightweight gears & brakes is not enough to make
your bike lightweight anyway..........

Quoted message said:

NOTE: This is a follow-up to a recent inquiry I made about upgrading
components for increased speed that I (a recreational cyclist) might
be able to notice. There were several helpful suggestions (which I
appreciate) but the overall concensus is that component quality is not
linked to speed. The possible exceptions was that lighter weight
stuff might be noticable on longer climbs.

So, this begs an obvious question. Is there *any* advantage to more
expensive components other than weight? If so, what are they and
can a recreational rider actually feel them?

To get the juices going, here is a starting point...

+ Wheels, spokes and rims?
- Weight, durability, braking smoothness, braking power?

Variables: weight, strength and fatigue resistance. Machined rims provide
better braking at first. More expensive rims are not necessarily
stronger, but often are. Aero rims cost more, too.

Quoted message said:

+ Hubs?
- Speed/efficiency, durability, lower maintenance?

Forget speed when it comes to hubs as any drag will be minute compared to
other factors that /really/ affect your speed, like aerodynamics of riding
position and rolling resistance of tyres.
Durability: debatable.
Some cheaper hubs with cartridge bearings are maintenance free (eg.
Campag Mirage). On the other hand, some high end hubs (like Campag
Chorus) are easier to service than traditional Shimano hubs. And some
hubs (of various prices) have more weather-proof seals than others. Top
end hubs have grease ports.
Yet again, weight is the major difference.

Quoted message said:

+ Bottom brackets?
- Speed/efficiency, durability, lower maintenance?

Similar to hubs above, although most BBs are now maintenace-free.
Durabilty can be dodgy with some cheap ones.

Quoted message said:

+ Brake calipers?
- Braking power, braking feel, adjustability, durability?

More money buys nicer and more adjustable brake pads, and nicer cable
adjusters. But low-end dual-pivot calipers (from the major brands) have
the same sort of stiffness and mechanical advantage as the more expenive
ones.
Tip: buy Mirage/Sora/105 calipers and upgrade by fitting Kool Stop
Dura shoes.

Quoted message said:

+ Brake levers/brifters?
- Braking power,

No.

Quoted message said:

braking feel, repairability, durability,

Shifting feel, more gears. ShimaNO STIs generally are not repairable; All
Campag Ergos are.

Quoted message said:

adjustability?

No, in fact, Sora is one of the few drop-bar levers with adjustable reach.

Quoted message said:

+ Crank sets?
- Shifting performance, weight, durability, stiffness (power)?

More expensive rings (forged & machined) last longer than cheap ones which
are pressed. Weight yes. Stiffer sometimes (eg. Chorus verses Centaur).

Quoted message said:

+ Front [& rear] derailleurs?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Performance, durabilty & adjustability is not a problem for modern low-end
Campag & Shimano mechs, IME.

Quoted message said:

+ Bars, stems and posts?
- Weight, stiffness, shock absorbtion/comfort, adjustability,
suspension?

With traditional type drop bars for instance, the more expensive ones tend
to use thinner tubing so are lighter and more flexible. Not always the
case, though, due to oversizing or special butting/materials or whatever.

How about tyres: Faster tyres will make more difference to performance
than a more expensive groupset. Concentrate on the basics and the things
that affect ergonomics and comfort -- like bars, riding position, saddle,
tyres -- then after that, simply spend the most you can comfortably afford
on the groupset and don't worry about it. Gear ratios are very important
too, but most low-end ones can be tweaked as well (ie. rings & cassettes
can be replaced).

One factor you don't mention is appearance. Definitely /some/ of the
extra money you spend on more expensive stuff is purely for a shinier
finish or a fancier shape, and for a badge with more cred.

~PB

pinnah said:

Are there discernable differences between expensive components like
Campy or DuraAce and less expensive stuff like Shimano Sora?

Sora has a poorly-designed STI shifter, specifically for the low end of
their line. But the brakes and derailleurs are fine.

Quoted message said:

If so, what are they and how good of a rider do you need to be to able
to tell the difference?

Princess and the pea good.

Quoted message said:

So, this begs an obvious question. Is there *any* advantage to more
expensive components other than weight? If so, what are they and can a
recreational rider actually feel them?

The oohs and aahs of the groupies.

Quoted message said:

+ Wheels, spokes and rims?
- Weight, durability, braking smoothness, braking power?

If you avoid anodized rims, or at least anodized braking surfaces, all
rims are fine. there is a caution due about ceramic rims (a solution in
search of a problem, BTW), in that you _have_ to use the special brake
pads with them. Since the rims cost the earth and don't do anything that
plain rims do, avoid them.

Quoted message said:

+ Hubs?
- Speed/efficiency, durability, lower maintenance?

Really high-priced hubs like Phil Wood and the like are lower-maintenance
than your basic Shimano or Campy, but are not faster.

Quoted message said:

+ Bottom brackets?
- Speed/efficiency, durability, lower maintenance?

Get the cheapest cartridge bottom bracket that will fit your bike.

Quoted message said:

+ Brake calipers?
- Braking power, braking feel, adjustability, durability?

Stick with major brands: Shimano, Campagnolo, Ritchey, Avid.

Quoted message said:

+ Brake levers/brifters?
- Braking power, braking feel, repairability, durability,
adjustability?

Shimano are totally non-serviceable. I really prefer Campy for that
reason. Both wear out after roughly the same mileage. Campy levers
require a $3 part to get back up to snuff. Shimano requires total
replacement.

Quoted message said:

+ Crank sets?
- Shifting performance, weight, durability, stiffness (power)?

Never notice anything.

Quoted message said:

+ Front derailleurs?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Stick with major brands and it will be fine.

Quoted message said:

+ Rear derailluers?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Ditto

Quoted message said:

+ Bars, stems and posts?
- Weight, stiffness, shock absorbtion/comfort, adjustability,
suspension?

The lighter you go, the more often you will need to replace them. Not
real bright IMNSHO to have bars or stems be so near the bleeding edge in
terms of reliability, but they are closer to that edge. Go a bit heavier
and save some skin.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

+ Crank sets?
- Shifting performance, weight, durability, stiffness (power)?

More expensive rings (forged & machined) last longer than cheap ones which
are pressed.

Yeah, but the "more expensive" is the relevant variable. I replace rings
fairly regularly. I usually pay $5 per at swap meets. "High quality"
rings can cost 10-15 times that. Go figure the best deal.

Quoted message said:

How about tyres: Faster tyres will make more difference to performance
than a more expensive groupset.

Absolutely. But faster is not the same as pricier. Look for very
flexible casing, and thin rubber layer. Ignore tread design. Pay
attention to "TPI" threads per inch, but beware that many companies
basically lie about that. Don't believe numbers over 200, don't buy less
than 100.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is
_`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.
(_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

Squid-in-Training said:

Quoted message said:

IME, little difference outside weight except for a few that are flexy
(sometimes not cheap ones), though on seat posts there can be some
nasty surprises if you shop too cheap.

Examples, please.

My two cents: single-bolt seatposts, especially on mountain bikes, are to be
avoided.

Agreed.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You
_`\(,_ | soon find out the pig likes it!
(_)/ (_) |

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message

Quoted message said:

My two cents: single-bolt seatposts, especially on mountain bikes, are to
be avoided.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

I'll second that.

-NC

Quoted message said:

pinnah said:

+ Front derailleurs?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Werehatrack said:

This is the one place where I've found that buying good stuff may be
worth a few bucks, but I wouldn't go above 105 with my own money.

Can you say what you've liked about better FDs in more detail? Do
they shifter faster or more cleanly?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

+ Rear derailluers?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Avoid cheap [censored]; match the der to the shifter. Mid-range price
levels contain many good choices.

Same question here. What is it about better RDs that you notice?
Shifting performance? Durability?

Thanks a ton. The feedback is very helpful.

-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

(Drew Eckhardt) said:

Machined rims provide better braking
when wet. Hand built wheels stay true better. Butted spokes build into
stronger wheels.

Helpful stuff.

Quoted message said:

Ball bearing brake calipers work better.

In what way? Do they give you better feel? Better control of braking
pressure? Do they last longer? BTW, who makes such calipers and how
can you tell? This isn't a feature that I've noticed in the write up
on the parts.

Many thanks for the input.

-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

Pete Biggs said:

Machined rims provide better braking at first.

Does this feature go away with wear?

Quoted message said:

Forget speed when it comes to hubs as any drag will be minute compared to
other factors that /really/ affect your speed, like aerodynamics of riding
position and rolling resistance of tyres.

This seems to be the concensus opinion. Thanks. It is helpful.

Quoted message said:

Durability [of higher quality hubs]: debatable.

If find this interesting but can accept it.

Quoted message said:

More money buys nicer and more adjustable brake pads, and nicer cable
adjusters. But low-end dual-pivot calipers (from the major brands) have
the same sort of stiffness and mechanical advantage as the more expenive
ones.
Tip: buy Mirage/Sora/105 calipers and upgrade by fitting Kool Stop
Dura shoes.

Did that last year.

Quoted message said:

Shifting feel, more gears.

Could you expound on the issue of shifting "feel". Is Ultegra or 105
noticably more crisp in its shifting compared to Sora/RSX level stuff?
And to be clear, you are talking about Brifters here, not RDs, right?
Note: I canned my RSX brifters (which failed) and replaced with
Ultegra Barcons (which suit me fine).

Quoted message said:

More expensive rings (forged & machined) last longer than cheap ones which
are pressed.

This is very helpful.

Weight yes. Stiffer sometimes (eg. Chorus verses Centaur).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

+ Front [& rear] derailleurs?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Performance, durabilty & adjustability is not a problem for modern low-end
Campag & Shimano mechs, IME.

Interesting. Is it your experience that Sora level stuff will shift
as cleanly and crisply as 105 or Ultegra stuff?

Quoted message said:

One factor you don't mention is appearance. Definitely /some/ of the
extra money you spend on more expensive stuff is purely for a shinier
finish or a fancier shape, and for a badge with more cred.

Heh!! If it was all about appearance, I would still be riding lugged
steel!!!

Thanks for the help

-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

Squid-in-Training said:

Quoted message said:

IME, little difference outside weight except for a few that are flexy
(sometimes not cheap ones), though on seat posts there can be some
nasty surprises if you shop too cheap.

Examples, please.

My two cents: single-bolt seatposts, especially on mountain bikes, are to be
avoided.

Some single-bolt posts work OK, others will allow the seat to slip
just when you *really* don't want that to happen. Some two-bolt types
won't allow the seat to be mounted far enough aft for some riders,
though. There are gotchas with various types.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

pinnah said:

Quoted message said:

pinnah said:

+ Front derailleurs?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Werehatrack said:

This is the one place where I've found that buying good stuff may be
worth a few bucks, but I wouldn't go above 105 with my own money.

Can you say what you've liked about better FDs in more detail? Do
they shifter faster or more cleanly?

Faster? No. Mostly, it's just been my impression that they don't
require trimming as much or as critically to get the job done.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

+ Rear derailluers?
- Shifting performance, weight, durabiltiy, adjustability?

Avoid cheap [censored]; match the der to the shifter. Mid-range price
levels contain many good choices.

Same question here. What is it about better RDs that you notice?
Shifting performance? Durability?

Consistency. Adjusted for dead-center, they shift just as well at
both ends of the cassette. One caveat: The best der in the world can
be made to perform like [censored] if the cable isn't free-moving and/or the
housing is crappy. If you have a cheap der and a good cable, you're
more likely to get satisfactory results than with a DA and a Bell
cable.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

pinnah said:

Same question here. What is it about better RDs that you notice?
Shifting performance? Durability?

Werehatrack said:

Consistency. Adjusted for dead-center, they shift just as well at
both ends of the cassette. One caveat: The best der in the world can
be made to perform like [censored] if the cable isn't free-moving and/or the
housing is crappy. If you have a cheap der and a good cable, you're
more likely to get satisfactory results than with a DA and a Bell
cable.

This is very, very helpful. Thanks a bunch!

-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

pinnah said:

Pete Biggs said:

Machined rims provide better braking at first.

Does this feature go away with wear?

Rapidly. I installed a machined rim on one of my bikes a month ago.
After very little riding (some in the rain), it's easy to see where the
brake shoes are wearing on the rim.

Jeff

JeffWills said:

pinnah said:

Pete Biggs said:

Machined rims provide better braking at first.

Does this feature go away with wear?

Rapidly. I installed a machined rim on one of my bikes a month ago.
After very little riding (some in the rain), it's easy to see where
the brake shoes are wearing on the rim.

Wearing through anodizing takes a while, especially if one rides exclusively
in the dry. If the brakes squeal during this period, it is easy to see how
machined rims can be beneficial for oneself and everyone around.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

pinnah said:

(Drew Eckhardt) said:

Machined rims provide better braking
when wet. Hand built wheels stay true better. Butted spokes build
into stronger wheels.

Helpful stuff.

Quoted message said:

Ball bearing brake calipers work better.

In what way? Do they give you better feel? Better control of braking
pressure? Do they last longer? BTW, who makes such calipers and how
can you tell? This isn't a feature that I've noticed in the write up
on the parts.

Current Campagnolo Chorus & Record calipers have bb's. (I've not used
them).

~PB