Feedback appreciated...

Thanks for the video, Olivier.

I have about 190 on my computer, so you've joined the long list, right
near the South African Relay Final in the olymics and Hannah
Stockbauer.

You swim well ! The most noticeable thing about your stroke is the big
midline crossover of your left arm while you breath. You probably do
that to maintain momentum. But it gives your left pull much more of a
scull or sweep. That's not considered the most powerful way to swim -
rather you want your arm shaped like a boomerang which can be used like
a paddle against the water. That would allow you to use the powerful
muscles in your back to then "adduct" your upper arm, which simply
means pull it next to your body. You have a long, slicing motion
instead.

To allow your pull to be more classical on the left side, you would
need to carry more speed at the end of the pull on the right side. A
little surge there would allow you to breath and then get your face
headed back into the water with a boomerang shaped left arm instead of
tucking it under your body and slicing it.

Having said all that, I don't know that I'd change anything. You've
got very shoulder friendly technique. Trying to get higher elbow pulls
has to be pursued gingerly. So try new technique with caution.

Good luck,
Eric

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the video, Olivier.

Thanks for your valuable comments!

Quoted message said:

I have about 190 on my computer, so you've joined the long list, right
near the South African Relay Final in the olymics and Hannah
Stockbauer.

Not sure I am in the same category, but I can understand the value of having
not only the unreachable perfection of elite swimmers as a model, but also
average swimmer counter-examples for learning purpose. It's almost as much
important to know what NOT to do as to know what to do!

Quoted message said:

You swim well ! The most noticeable thing about your stroke is the big
midline crossover of your left arm while you breath. You probably do
that to maintain momentum. But it gives your left pull much more of a
scull or sweep. That's not considered the most powerful way to swim -
rather you want your arm shaped like a boomerang which can be used like
a paddle against the water. That would allow you to use the powerful
muscles in your back to then "adduct" your upper arm, which simply
means pull it next to your body. You have a long, slicing motion
instead.

Yes, this was a shock when I saw the video. I was sure before that that I
had a quite symmetrical stroke under water! It's striking to see how we can
fool ourselves...

Quoted message said:

To allow your pull to be more classical on the left side, you would
need to carry more speed at the end of the pull on the right side. A
little surge there would allow you to breath and then get your face
headed back into the water with a boomerang shaped left arm instead of
tucking it under your body and slicing it.

Thank you very much for this advice. I can imagine that I will not get rid
as easily of a swimming technique ingrained in 30 years of swimming. And I
can imagine that it's not as simple as telling myself: "get your left arm
stroke straight". The fact that this left scull can be related to the end of
the right arm stroke, and to the breath, is enlighting. Will try it next
time.

Quoted message said:

Having said all that, I don't know that I'd change anything. You've
got very shoulder friendly technique. Trying to get higher elbow pulls
has to be pursued gingerly. So try new technique with caution.

Yes. Never got shoulder problems in 30 years of swimming, except 2 years ago
when I tried to switch to bilateral breathing. But OK, I don't swim more
than 4km a week, so that is not really an issue... Will have to try to avoid
this dreaded dropped elbow pull, though.

Quoted message said:

Good luck,
Eric

Thanks again..

-- Olivier

The art of the pull is always interesting. There's actually quite a
few people in my Masters group that have fairly non-classical pulls but
are very fast nonetheless. And yet at the elite level, the number of
people who do not have textbook, boomerang shaped pulls, is quite
small. Elites who bend their elbows during the pull is also quite
small. But one of the best examples of an unorthodox stroke is Tom
Dolan. You can find video of him swimming freestyle about half way
down at the following link.

http://www.buehlerbluemarlins.net/videos/sydney2000/sydney.html

Your style is a little bit like his on the left side. So rather than
go for a classical high elbow on the left, which is tough on shoulders,
you may study what Tom does in the hopes of maximizing the style which
you have naturally gravitated towards.

Eric

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the video, Olivier.

I have about 190 on my computer, so you've joined the long list, right
near the South African Relay Final in the olymics and Hannah
Stockbauer.

You swim well ! The most noticeable thing about your stroke is the big
midline crossover of your left arm while you breath. You probably do
that to maintain momentum. But it gives your left pull much more of a
scull or sweep. That's not considered the most powerful way to swim -
rather you want your arm shaped like a boomerang which can be used like
a paddle against the water. That would allow you to use the powerful
muscles in your back to then "adduct" your upper arm, which simply
means pull it next to your body. You have a long, slicing motion
instead.

To allow your pull to be more classical on the left side, you would
need to carry more speed at the end of the pull on the right side. A
little surge there would allow you to breath and then get your face
headed back into the water with a boomerang shaped left arm instead of
tucking it under your body and slicing it.

Having said all that, I don't know that I'd change anything. You've
got very shoulder friendly technique. Trying to get higher elbow pulls
has to be pursued gingerly. So try new technique with caution.

Good luck,
Eric

^^^^^^
What he said, plus.
Think Teddy Bears: {yes, I'm teaching my kids to swim....} your arm
finishes its pull and comes out pretty straight, and back down in with a
splash, not good. When your arm comes out, bend your elbow and get your
fingers 'walking' on the water, Teddy Bear legs, see? When your hand is
near entry its time to go from Teddy Bear to sock puppet: you want your
hand to enter the water gently and with no splash. That means a nice
extending reach and getting your thumb in first, followed by the rest of
your hand on a nice sideways angle, then into the catch.
To help stop you crossing over, try looking ahead more and taking note
of your hand position as you begin to pull back, keep your hairline
roughly level with the water surface.
Good luck.

That means a nice
extending reach and getting your thumb in first, followed by the rest
of
your hand on a nice sideways angle, then into the catch

Please tell Winnie-the-Pooh to put his hand in PINKY FIRST to lessen
the chance
of getting a boo-boo in his shoulder 🙂

Eric

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What he said, plus.
Think Teddy Bears: {yes, I'm teaching my kids to swim....} your arm
finishes its pull and comes out pretty straight, and back down in with a
splash, not good.

I know I'm making some splash at hand entry, but I could never hear a good
reason why this is bad! Some elite swimmers do that (and all do that in 50m
sprint). I would prefer to swim like Tom Dolan, not like Teddy Bear...

Quoted message said:

When your arm comes out, bend your elbow and get your fingers 'walking' on
the water, Teddy Bear legs, see? When your hand is near entry its time to
go from Teddy Bear to sock puppet: you want your hand to enter the water
gently and with no splash. That means a nice extending reach and getting
your thumb in first, followed by the rest of your hand on a nice sideways
angle, then into the catch.

Well, I have heard so many bad things about "thumb first" techniques here...
According to Larry, and as pointed by Eric, internal rotation can provoke
impingement, and many shoulder problems. I won't try it.

Quoted message said:

To help stop you crossing over, try looking ahead more and taking note of
your hand position as you begin to pull back, keep your hairline roughly
level with the water surface.

Not sure this is a good advice either.
I know that a lot of people recommand to look ahead, but other people
recommend to look down. One of my problem is short DPS (Distance Per
Stroke), and I tend to believe that I could take benefit in listening to TI
advices here. And AFAIK they promote "look down".

Anyway, thank for your time!

-- Olivier

"I know that a lot of people recommand to look ahead, but other people
recommend to look down. One of my problem is short DPS (Distance Per
Stroke), and I tend to believe that I could take benefit in listening
to TI
advices here. And AFAIK they promote "look down". "

Let's be careful here. I've been shortening my stroke recently with
excellent results in speed.

Your "problem", if you want to call it that, is that you're straddling
two styles. You have a kick
with many beats, but not a whole lot of force. If you want to swim
with higher turnover, trying
to work in all those kicks is going to be a problem. If you want to
swim long with glide, you
probably need to kick more vigorously.

So IF maximum speed is your goal, it would seem you need to kick less
and stroke more, or
get a more vigorous kick.

Eric

Quoted message said:

That means a nice
extending reach and getting your thumb in first, followed by the rest
of
your hand on a nice sideways angle, then into the catch

Please tell Winnie-the-Pooh to put his hand in PINKY FIRST to lessen
the chance
of getting a boo-boo in his shoulder 🙂

Eric

No mate, side of thumb in first. Check some of those elite videos....

Silver0l said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What he said, plus.
Think Teddy Bears: {yes, I'm teaching my kids to swim....} your arm
finishes its pull and comes out pretty straight, and back down in with a
splash, not good.

I know I'm making some splash at hand entry, but I could never hear a good
reason why this is bad! Some elite swimmers do that (and all do that in 50m
sprint). I would prefer to swim like Tom Dolan, not like Teddy Bear...

Ok, you want to swim in Triathlons? Believe me, you don't want to waste
effort by making a splash on entry during the swim leg of a 5 hour
event, ask me how I know.....🙂
Cut the splashing right out, it's for sprinters alone: They can
sacrifice form for turnover rate, you most definitely cannot.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When your arm comes out, bend your elbow and get your fingers 'walking' on
the water, Teddy Bear legs, see? When your hand is near entry its time to
go from Teddy Bear to sock puppet: you want your hand to enter the water
gently and with no splash. That means a nice extending reach and getting
your thumb in first, followed by the rest of your hand on a nice sideways
angle, then into the catch.

Well, I have heard so many bad things about "thumb first" techniques here...
According to Larry, and as pointed by Eric, internal rotation can provoke
impingement, and many shoulder problems. I won't try it.

Yeah you will. But full credit to you for being sensitive about what can
cause injury.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To help stop you crossing over, try looking ahead more and taking note of
your hand position as you begin to pull back, keep your hairline roughly
level with the water surface.

Not sure this is a good advice either.
I know that a lot of people recommand to look ahead, but other people
recommend to look down. One of my problem is short DPS (Distance Per
Stroke), and I tend to believe that I could take benefit in listening to TI
advices here. And AFAIK they promote "look down".

I'd say you need to look more forward to help equal your stroke out, it
is badly out of shape. When you get a more even stroke, then you can
move onto what works best in head position.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, thank for your time!

No problem.
Of course it's up to you what you do with my advice, but I was coached
by world record holders, swam for my county, and *almost* got into the
British age group qualifying times for Triathlon.
Think Teddy Bears eh?

Quoted message said:

-- Olivier

Quoted message said:

"I know that a lot of people recommand to look ahead, but other people
recommend to look down. One of my problem is short DPS (Distance Per
Stroke), and I tend to believe that I could take benefit in listening
to TI
advices here. And AFAIK they promote "look down". "

Let's be careful here. I've been shortening my stroke recently with
excellent results in speed.

Your "problem", if you want to call it that, is that you're straddling
two styles. You have a kick
with many beats, but not a whole lot of force. If you want to swim
with higher turnover, trying
to work in all those kicks is going to be a problem. If you want to
swim long with glide, you
probably need to kick more vigorously.

So IF maximum speed is your goal, it would seem you need to kick less
and stroke more, or
get a more vigorous kick.

I think the first option would suit a Triathlete better tbh.

Quoted message said:

Eric

didgerman said:

Quoted message said:

That means a nice
extending reach and getting your thumb in first, followed by the rest
of
your hand on a nice sideways angle, then into the catch

Please tell Winnie-the-Pooh to put his hand in PINKY FIRST to lessen
the chance
of getting a boo-boo in his shoulder 🙂

Eric

No mate, side of thumb in first. Check some of those elite videos....

Check out all the scars on the shoulders of those elite swimmers.
Babar is really better off Pinky first to avoid that boo-boo. I've been
working on/with Larry's Popeye Pull with considerable success and my
ouch is much better.

rtk

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know I'm making some splash at hand entry, but I could never hear a
good reason why this is bad! Some elite swimmers do that (and all do that
in 50m sprint). I would prefer to swim like Tom Dolan, not like Teddy
Bear...

Ok, you want to swim in Triathlons? Believe me, you don't want to waste
effort by making a splash on entry during the swim leg of a 5 hour event,
ask me how I know.....🙂
Cut the splashing right out, it's for sprinters alone: They can sacrifice
form for turnover rate, you most definitely cannot.

Well, I'm not sure that swimming a triathlon is an issue here. After the
swim leg, I don't really need my arm muscles anymore. The last time I raced
(a 2.8km / 82km / 23km event - I ranked 50th/345 after the swim), I really
couldn't put the blame for my poor bike performance on my exhausted arms - I
just need legs! Getting my arms completely exhausted is a price I am ready
to pay to win a few precious minutes. I simply want the fastest arm stroke.
And I never could see a convinving explanation why making a splash is
slower, or even more energy consuming, that a smooth hand entry. On the
contrary, I have the feeling that a relaxed, straight, ballistic arm
recovery is LESS exhausting than a controlled move. And it's better for the
fight at the buoy! Ask me how I know... ;-)

-- Olivier

Silver0l said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know I'm making some splash at hand entry, but I could never hear a
good reason why this is bad! Some elite swimmers do that (and all do that
in 50m sprint). I would prefer to swim like Tom Dolan, not like Teddy
Bear...

Ok, you want to swim in Triathlons? Believe me, you don't want to waste
effort by making a splash on entry during the swim leg of a 5 hour event,
ask me how I know.....🙂
Cut the splashing right out, it's for sprinters alone: They can sacrifice
form for turnover rate, you most definitely cannot.

Well, I'm not sure that swimming a triathlon is an issue here. After the
swim leg, I don't really need my arm muscles anymore. The last time I raced
(a 2.8km / 82km / 23km event - I ranked 50th/345 after the swim), I really
couldn't put the blame for my poor bike performance on my exhausted arms - I
just need legs! Getting my arms completely exhausted is a price I am ready
to pay to win a few precious minutes. I simply want the fastest arm stroke.
And I never could see a convinving explanation why making a splash is
slower, or even more energy consuming, that a smooth hand entry. On the
contrary, I have the feeling that a relaxed, straight, ballistic arm
recovery is LESS exhausting than a controlled move. And it's better for the
fight at the buoy! Ask me how I know... ;-)

-- Olivier

Well after that all I can say is you need to book some time with a
serious coach. You've a pretty bad stroke, and it needs a lot of work.
Why on earth you'd think a gentle entry back into the water isn't
something to be strived for is beyond me. As for not needing your arms
in the bike and run, are you mad?
Let's not get into the usual newsgroup slanging match, but really,
you've shown here that you have a limited knowledge of what's going on,
so I reckon you need some time with a coach and/or in a decent Tri'
club.....
Have a nice life.

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well after that all I can say is you need to book some time with a serious
coach. You've a pretty bad stroke, and it needs a lot of work. Why on
earth you'd think a gentle entry back into the water isn't something to be
strived for is beyond me.

Well, I agree that I have a bad stroke, and I agree that I have a very bad
left arm underwater pull (hence my posting), and I am ready to listen to any
advice / drill suggestion to try to fix that, starting with the excellent
recommendation of Eric, but I will certainly not devote time and efforts
right now to try to fix some secondary features that are still subject of
controversy among experts, like the straight arm recovery, the "look up
head" position, or the limited splash at hand entry.

Quoted message said:

As for not needing your arms in the bike and run, are you mad?

Do you seriously think that arm muscles are the limiting performance factor
in the bike or run legs of a triathlon? Get real!

Quoted message said:

Let's not get into the usual newsgroup slanging match, but really, you've
shown here that you have a limited knowledge of what's going on, so I
reckon you need some time with a coach and/or in a decent Tri' club.....

Well, I have the privilege of age and experience, and already some good
coaching, even though I recognize that my stroke is far from perfect!

Quoted message said:

Have a nice life.

U2.

-- Olivier

Silver0l said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well after that all I can say is you need to book some time with a serious
coach. You've a pretty bad stroke, and it needs a lot of work. Why on
earth you'd think a gentle entry back into the water isn't something to be
strived for is beyond me.

Well, I agree that I have a bad stroke, and I agree that I have a very bad
left arm underwater pull (hence my posting), and I am ready to listen to any
advice / drill suggestion to try to fix that, starting with the excellent
recommendation of Eric, but I will certainly not devote time and efforts
right now to try to fix some secondary features that are still subject of
controversy among experts, like the straight arm recovery, the "look up
head" position, or the limited splash at hand entry.

Experts are arguing about limiting splash on hand entry? For long
distance swimming? Are you sure?
It's always been pretty clear cut to me.....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for not needing your arms in the bike and run, are you mad?

Do you seriously think that arm muscles are the limiting performance factor
in the bike or run legs of a triathlon? Get real!

I didn't say they were the limiting factor, but your arm/upper body
muscles certainly play a huge part in cycling and running.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's not get into the usual newsgroup slanging match, but really, you've
shown here that you have a limited knowledge of what's going on, so I
reckon you need some time with a coach and/or in a decent Tri' club.....

Well, I have the privilege of age and experience, and already some good
coaching, even though I recognize that my stroke is far from perfect!

Quoted message said:

Have a nice life.

U2.

-- Olivier

Hi Olivier,

I've been studying swim video so I took another look at your swim. I
think I've got you figured out 🙂

There's lots of ways to swim - one technique I've seen used is
something I call the "big-bang" theory. (That's derived from
motorcycle engines, not notions about the start of the universe).
Practictioners of the big-bang theory of swimming really hammer one
side of their stroke, and then do their best to maintain the velocity
achieved on that side. They can do this by kicking or stroking almost
instantly after the big-bang side. One of the best pratictioners of
this type of swimming is the great Canadian swimmer, Rick Say. You can
see his video here:

http://www.buehlerbluemarlins.net/videos/athens2004/athens2004.html

His entry his about 10 down.

The video is best after the turn. Now the big-bang side is always
going to be opposite of the breathing side. That's because while
breathing, body rotation is usually maximum, and that provides a lot of
potential energy - a coiled spring. And with a kick to aid rotation,
some swimmers will really rip this side. In the case of Rick Say,
that's his left handed pull since he breaths right. He loads it up
big, and unleashes with a big left kick. On his right side, he
instantly goes to catch to maintain his velocity. His hand goes
outward ... thumb-down 🙁 hard on shoulders and he's HAS had shoulder
problems) So his right side is nothing like his left - very little
rotation, no kick. He's simply trying to maintain his big-bang
velocity from the left side.

I've recently starting looking at where the swimmers toes are pointed
at the end of the final kick. Usually on the non-breathing side, the
toes are pointed towards the center of the body or downward, due to the
bigger rotation while breathing. On the non-breathing side, the toes
are often pointed out - the swimmer is flatter on this side so at the
end of the pull on the breathing side, the toes kick out.

So what does all this mean to you?

You breath right, but your left side pull is actually the weaker of
your two sides. And then your kick actually is most vigorous on your
right side. But you've got very little speed and momentum to maintain
so why bother? Plus at the end of your big-bang left side, your left
kick actually goes to the left. You don't want that - you should be
ripping back to horizontal with a big kick that should be to the right
or down.

I recommend rotating more to the left while breathing, keep your arm
straight and have it dive for depth. Then as you fire back to the
horizontal, big kick with the left foot, and somewhere in there you
flex and then extend your elbow. It's not completely classical, but
you WILL get velocity out of that tecnique and then have some momentum
to maintain on the right side - which you can do by kicking or going to
catch immediately.

Regards,
Eric

PS We often have assymetries in our strengths, balance, flexibility,
etc. Another you can do is try breathing to the right instead of the
left. I'm convinced that if a swimmer has a weaker side for whatever
reason, that should be the breathing side.

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PS We often have assymetries in our strengths, balance, flexibility,
etc. Another you can do is try breathing to the right instead of the
left. I'm convinced that if a swimmer has a weaker side for whatever
reason, that should be the breathing side.

Interesting post. Will check everything and test carefully. I was not a big
fan of assymetry, but I have to deal with the fact that my swim is very
assymetrical. And the same goes with elites.
This said, I think I remember that Larry advocated the contrary, breathing
to the strong side. Will try to Google this.
As for the PS, you mean breathing to the left, I suppose?

-- Olivier

Silver0l said:

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PS We often have assymetries in our strengths, balance, flexibility,
etc. Another you can do is try breathing to the right instead of the
left. I'm convinced that if a swimmer has a weaker side for whatever
reason, that should be the breathing side.

Interesting post. Will check everything and test carefully. I was not a big
fan of assymetry, but I have to deal with the fact that my swim is very
assymetrical. And the same goes with elites.
This said, I think I remember that Larry advocated the contrary, breathing
to the strong side. Will try to Google this.
As for the PS, you mean breathing to the left, I suppose?

-- Olivier

I suppose most people have some "hard" asymmetry, eg scoliosis, that
it would be pointless to fight. I have a scoliosis probably caused by
many years of playing baseball, especially as a growing boy. The
result is that my left side is much stronger than my right, and
strengthening my right side has not eliminated the scolisosis. I
breath on the right side, and I don't enjoy swimming at all when I
breath on the left.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suppose most people have some "hard" asymmetry, eg scoliosis, that
it would be pointless to fight.

No.

The incidence of scoliosis is generally thought very low - propably under 1%
of the population. For those who have it, spontaneous improvement
(reduction in curvature) is seen, especially frequently in those with
initial diagnoses of curvature less than about 10 degrees. For those with
greater curves, treatment is widely available and usually successful.