Happy St. Patrick's Day

"Donal Fagan"

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll play token Irish-American.

Then add me to the list. My people are from Ennistymon,
County Clare.

Quoted message said:

I wish things were happier, though. My condolences to the
Spanish, but congratulations for throwing out the bums
that were trying to shift blame from al-Qaeda. I hope
we'll be that smart in November.

Have you considered that the Spanish vote just might have
given Al Qaeda the idea that they toppled a Western
government by the use of bombs? And that they might---just
might---try it over and over again?

Quoted message said:

I'm reading Counsilman's 'Competitive Swimming Manual',
which has a great front view sequence of Mark Spitz
swimming crawl. Spitz looks forward, but as Counsilman
writes, "Note that the water line is not at the forehead,
but several inches above the hairline." Even looking
forward, Spitz's head is submerged.

Yeah, yeah, great swimmer---but no Irishman.

Pat in Texas

Quoted message said:

Then add me to the list. My people are from Ennistymon,
County Clare.

And Happy St Patrick's day to yourself and Mr Donal Fagan
from me-self...

My people came from Ballybay, County Monaghan and I'm from
Derry. Sure doesn't the whole world become a wee bit smaller
on St. Patrick's day.

-Rob, also in Texas

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll play token Irish-American.

I wish things were happier, though. My condolences to the
Spanish, but congratulations for throwing out the bums
that were trying to shift blame from al-Qaeda. I hope
we'll be that smart in November.

And how do you feel about the IRA, who have killed more
people in terrorist bombings than Al Quieda ? Maybe you've
not heard of them though, the Brits just got on with it, and
didn't declare war on the world the way the USA did when
they got hurt. The IRA, a major terrorist organisation have
been finance primarily from the USA for over 100 years, and
still are. Makes you proud to be Irish- American does it?
Try visiting Northern Ireland sometime and touch reality, it
may change your way of thinking.

don't be obtuse Duncan.

"Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message news:4058bbb0_1@mk-nntp-
2.news.uk.tiscali.com...

Quoted message said:

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll play token Irish-American.

I wish things were happier, though. My condolences to
the Spanish, but congratulations for throwing out the
bums that were trying to shift blame from al-Qaeda. I
hope we'll be that smart in November.

And how do you feel about the IRA, who have killed more
people in

terrorist

Quoted message said:

bombings than Al Quieda ? Maybe you've not heard of them
though, the Brits just got on with it, and didn't declare
war on the world the way the USA did when they got hurt.
The IRA, a major terrorist organisation have been finance
primarily from

the

Quoted message said:

USA for over 100 years, and still are. Makes you proud to
be Irish- American does it? Try visiting Northern Ireland
sometime and touch reality, it may change

your

Quoted message said:

way of thinking.

Look Ma... there's one of Ian Paisley's baboons...

Ain't his butt shiny...

It's got Troll tattoed across his [censored] in big bold letters!

There's no Troll... like an Orange Troll!

ROFLAO! at Duncan 😄

Quoted message said:

And how do you feel about the IRA, who have killed more
people in

terrorist

Quoted message said:

bombings than Al Quieda ? Maybe you've not heard of them
though, the Brits just got on with it, and didn't declare
war on the world the way the USA did when they got hurt.
The IRA, a major terrorist organisation have been finance
primarily from

the

Quoted message said:

USA for over 100 years, and still are. Makes you proud to
be Irish- American does it? Try visiting Northern Ireland
sometime and touch reality, it may change

your

Quoted message said:

way of thinking.

Been there, done that. I don't have anything to do with
thugs. I can only be proud/embarrassed by things I've done--
not things other people have done. I don't believe in
collective guilt.

And, I did visit Northern Ireland. It sure showed me how
the Catholics have been discriminated against, and I'm not
even Catholic!

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Pat said:

Then add me to the list. My people are from Ennistymon,
County Clare.

Some of mine are from Clare, some from Cork.

Quoted message said:

Have you considered that the Spanish vote just might have
given Al Qaeda the idea that they toppled a Western
government by the use of bombs?

Of course I've read that interpretation by conservative
columnists in the local rag. And al-Qaeda will certainly
choose to believe that. But here is a letter from a Spanish
lady that is posted on beautifulhorizons.typepad.com-beautifulhorizons.typepad.com-Open ↗
/weblog/2004/03/arrogance_to_th.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

I was watching TV this afternoon and there was footage
showing how the railway service affected by the attack is
working as usual since early this morning. It showed a
trainful of commuters, some of them with tears in their
eyes, some of them with an openly defiant expression on
their faces. Some recognised they had felt a tingle in
their stomach when boarding the train, but all said they
were not going to change their life because of, and give in
to, the assassins who had committed the atrocity. I can
assure you that appeasement doesn't come into the equation.
Those who think otherwise forget that we have thousands of
PP and PSOE councillors, old and young, who are risking
their lives on a daily basis in the Basque country,
sometimes getting killed for it, precisely because they
refuse to appease the ETA thugs.

And they forget a very simple thing: Aznar had huge support
for his hardline policy of non-appeasement of the ETA
terrorists and their supporters, however, there was
discontent about his lap-dog act towards Bush's war on
'global terror' which, wrong or right, was perceived as
inefficient and counterproductive. Discontent extended to
other pressing domestic issues, he had antagonised
practically all other political parties and more than a few
regional governments due to his "you-are-with-me-or-against-
me" attitude, his arrogance and his intolerance. However,
there was a degree of apathy in the socialist camp, as
Rodríguez Zapatero was thought not to have enough
experience just yet.

So, the PP knew that their antiterrorist policy (against
ETA) was one of its main winning cards, and they didn't
hesitate to blatantly manipulate the 11-M attack,
suppressing information, calling people to demonstrate
against ETA, knowing all the while that the Antiterrorist
Information Brigade had as good as discarded ETA authorship
a few hours after the attack. The antiterrorist police heads
even threatened to resign at the madness of it all, and this
was leaked to the opposition and the press. And all the
while the state TVE showing documentaries about ETA
activities right until late Saturday night, on the eve of
the election, and failing to report live on Minister Acebes
informing about the Al-Q line of investigation which he had
been forced to acknowledge - forced by his own angered
police heads and by the media which had all the information
but was withholding it just long enough for the Minister to
do the decent thing. This heartless manipulation of the dead
for political gain clinched it - it was the last straw, it
galvanised a portion of apathetic socialist voters who would
have otherwise abstained, galvanised first-time voters, and
galvanised Izquierda Unida voters (which include communists)
who opted for heaping their vote on the PSOE for a higher
chance of defeating Aznar (IU lost 5 seats because of that).
In Spain, government change has always been heralded by a
higher participation of voters. In a nutshell, many
Spaniards felt badly abused, and acted accordingly. So, yes,
11-M influenced the vote, but not because we are overcome by
fear, or because we think that we can avert further attacks,
but because we will only put up with so much lying and
manipulation, and especially not when it is the dead and
their families that are being heartlessly and shamelessly
manipulated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:25:51 -0000, "Duncan

Heenan said:

And how do you feel about the IRA, ...

I've been to Ireland, and some of them were not shy about
hating the Brits. I don't know how you go back and undo all
the crimes committed by one group against another, but that
seems to be the aim of many groups on the losing end of
history. There doesn't seem to be much future in it, though.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

On 17 Mar,

Duncan Heenan said:

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll play token Irish-American.

I wish things were happier, though. My condolences to
the Spanish, but congratulations for throwing out the
bums that were trying to shift blame from al-Qaeda. I
hope we'll be that smart in November.

And how do you feel about the IRA, who have killed more
people in terrorist bombings than Al Quieda ? Maybe you've
not heard of them though, the Brits just got on with it,
and didn't declare war on the world the way the USA did
when they got hurt. The IRA, a major terrorist
organisation have been finance primarily from the USA for
over 100 years, and still are. Makes you proud to be Irish-
American does it? Try visiting Northern Ireland sometime
and touch reality, it may change your way of thinking.

What a very well stated case. The hypocrisy of the USA on
terrorism, having been the biggest funder of terrorism in
Ireland, and probably many other places I have no connection
with, to then declare war on terrorism (their narrow minded
definition of terrorism) is more multi faceted than most
town hall clocks. They were /not/ interested in any measures
to prevent terrorism elsewhere, until they had the full fury
of a terrorist atrocity inflicted on them.

Facts:

Many of the Israeli leaders over the last thirty years were
"terrorists" in the forties.

A recent winner of the Nobel peace prize, well respected
world wide, was imprisoned for very many years as a
"terrorist".

The US record (even now) on human rights (even for it's own
citizens of some races) is atrocious. It certainly was much
worse in the sixties than many countries it criticises.

Sort out the root causes of terrorism, (and it's funding),
thus removing the fuel to produce the next generation of
terrorists. The US activities since
11/9 have done more to make the world a less safe place, and
create more terrorists.

--
BD add 1 to from address to reply [13435]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Try visiting Northern Ireland sometime and touch reality,
it may change

Some time ago we bicycled through 1000 beautiful miles of
Ireland. Up the west coast, across, and into a bit of
Northern Ireland before going south and completing sort of a
square. The short visit north was just enough to sense the
tension that is always present. There was an incident, tiny
and inconsequential, so that no one would ever hear of
it. But I thought it was very telling. There was a bang.
Two policemen began running in its direction. One fell
down, got up quickly, but embarrassed, of course, and
even more so when he recognized the bang was only a car
back-firing. It was nothing and here we would have
quickly recognized it for what it was. The extremely
high state of tension was alarmed me,too. Imagine
living like that all the time, for years and years,
your senses so primed for something horrible that even
a back-firing car can trip up the pursuing cop. I think
it was a touch of reality, especially because of the
smallness of it. I've lived in bad neighborhoods of big
cities, but it would take more than a back-firing car
to trigger my fight/flight reaction. This was worse,
perhaps because it seemed even more random.

Ruth Kazez

Donal Fagan said:

I can assure you that appeasement doesn't come into the
equation. Those who think otherwise forget that we have
thousands of PP and PSOE councillors, old and young, who
are risking their lives on a daily basis in the Basque
country, sometimes getting killed for it, precisely
because they refuse to appease the ETA thugs.

Another bicycling episode, again 1000 miles, this time
Portugal. Our return flight got sidetracked to Madrid. We
were kept waiting on the plane for 2 hours before we saw all
our luggage pulled quickly onto the tarmac and the dogs
brought to sniff. We thought it could be a drug bust until
we were asked to file quickly out of the plane. Immediately
the plane was hauled to the outskirts of the airport while
we were generously fed and then taken to the fanciest hotel
I've ever been in. The room's mini bar was free, so our
concerns became minimal when we were unexpectedly bussed
back, returned to our seats and sent up flying back to New
York. The next day's headlines: 4 bombs planted by Basques;
3 go off, but the one on the airplane was removed.

Ruth Kazez

On 18 Mar,

rtk said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Try visiting Northern Ireland sometime and touch
reality, it may change

Some time ago we bicycled through 1000 beautiful miles of
Ireland. Up the west coast, across, and into a bit of
Northern Ireland before going south and completing sort of
a square. The short visit north was just enough to sense
the tension that is always present. There was an incident,
tiny and inconsequential, so that no one would ever hear
of it. But I thought it was very telling. There was a
bang. Two policemen began running in its direction. One
fell down, got up quickly, but embarrassed, of course, and
even more so when he recognized the bang was only a car
back-firing. It was nothing and here we would have quickly
recognized it for what it was. The extremely high state of
tension was alarmed me,too. Imagine living like that all
the time, for years and years, your senses so primed for
something horrible that even a back-firing car can trip up
the pursuing cop. I think it was a touch of reality,
especially because of the smallness of it. I've lived in
bad neighborhoods of big cities, but it would take more
than a back-firing car to trigger my fight/flight
reaction.

I was once chased home once by three helicopters after
my car had (alledgedly) backfired whilst passing the
Maze prison.

Quoted message said:

This was worse, perhaps because it seemed even more
random.

One of the more depressing thing I saw was when leaving
where I lived during a thunderstorm some pre school children
were playing barricades, and assumed the thunder was bombs
going off. (about 12 went off that day in Belfast, we were
about 8 miles away). Children of that age ought to be
thinking of other things.

--
BD add 1 to from address to reply [13435]

Pat said:

"Donal Fagan"

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll play token Irish-American.

Then add me to the list. My people are from Ennistymon,
County Clare.

Quoted message said:

I wish things were happier, though. My condolences to the
Spanish, but congratulations for throwing out the bums
that were trying to shift blame from al-Qaeda. I hope
we'll be that smart in November.

Have you considered that the Spanish vote just might have
given Al Qaeda the idea that they toppled a Western
government by the use of bombs? And that they might---just
might---try it over and over again?

We already know they are going to do it again, because they
have been doing it again for many years. The election didn't
change that. Given that the bombing occurred only a few days
before the election, no matter how the Spanish voted, the
result would be seen by some people as having been "caused"
by Al Qaida.

It doesn't matter. Spain has been fighting terrorism for
decades, and the first statement from the new government was
that its top priority would be to fight terrorism. Even if
Al Qaida intended to influence the election, how can the
outcome be a victory for them? The new government is not pro
Al Qaida, and the threat to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq
is not what Al Qaida wants. One of Al Qaida's stated goals
was to involve the west in a great war. It makes more sense
to argue that President Bush starting the war in Iraq was a
victory for Al Qaida. It was one of their stated goals.

martin

Quoted message said:

This isn't either anti-Bush or pro-Kerry or even left vs. right; just an
observation and opinion:

Too many columnists and talking heads (and talk radio
boors) are tossing out words like "appeasement,"
"capitulation," "negotiation," and "surrender."

Bill O'Reilly said one day on his radio show that the
Republican National Committee sends out a memo each day
to all of the talk show hosts detailing what the RNC
wants to be put out--as "spontaneous thoughts" by the
talk show hosts. That is why you are seeing unanimous
agreement by them.

Quoted message said:

Show me a single serious politician anywhere (Right, Left,
Spanish, French, whatever) who has suggested either
"capitulation" or "negotiation," much less "appeasement"
or "surrender." This is a straw man with no basis in
reality.

I think what you and Donal are overlooking is the
fundamentalist Islamist "man in the street." These are not
exactly "thinking people" but those who are excited that
their leaders' plans have worked so well.

Quoted message said:

What the world needs to do, however, is to realize that
the Arab national boundaries put in place after WWI
(Balfour) are artificial. What is going on in the mid-East
is basically a long-term, pan-Arab civil war, with the
thorny problem of Israel (product of post WWII Zionism)
put into the middle, and complicated by the meddling of
Western nations hungry for the natural resource of the
region. Terrorists want the West out of the region, so
that Islamic fundamentalism can prevail.

Israel aside, I tend to think what is going on is a battle
against modernity and a battle for total control according
to fundamentalists interpretation of the Koran.

Quoted message said:

The West needs to decide whether cheap oil and support for
Israel are worth the fallout which comes from inserting
itself (the West) into what is going to be a 100 year
civil war, during which Islamic Arabia will work out its
own problems.

Oh, if only it were that simple!

Quoted message said:

Islamic fundamentalism probably needs to see its day in
the region, in the same way that communism had to have its
defining moment in the sun. Communism burned out because
of its fatal flaws, as will Islamic fundamentalism. But
Karl Marx had his champions until he had his 15 minutes of
fame (in world history time), and so Islamic
fundamentalism is seeking its own 15 minutes of existence.
Its just not worth the aggravation to be involved in this
colossal mess. Not when the price to be paid is the
nuclear immolation of an American city.

But, the western "world" still needs the oil supply. You
didn't address that. If we could break the need for that
oil, things could be different. And, I don't believe people
will ever abandon Israel.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

We already know they are going to do it again, because
they have been doing it again for many years. The election
didn't change that. Given that the bombing occurred only a
few days before the election, no matter how the Spanish
voted, the result would be seen by some people as having
been "caused" by Al Qaida.

It doesn't matter. Spain has been fighting terrorism for
decades, and the first statement from the new government
was that its top priority would be to fight terrorism.
Even if Al Qaida intended to influence the election, how
can the outcome be a victory for them? The new government
is not pro Al Qaida, and the threat to pull Spanish troops
out of Iraq is not what Al Qaida wants. One of Al Qaida's
stated goals was to involve the west in a great war. It
makes more sense to argue that President Bush starting the
war in Iraq was a victory for Al Qaida. It was one of
their stated goals.

martin

I think that we are discussing it here on a much higher
level than the average Al Qaeda supporter would even
consider. They aren't looking at the subleties but at the
gross cause and effect ideas.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

What a very well stated case. The hypocrisy of the USA on
terrorism,

having

Quoted message said:

been the biggest funder of terrorism in Ireland, and
probably many other places I have no connection with, to
then declare war on terrorism (their narrow minded
definition of terrorism) is more multi faceted than most

town

Quoted message said:

hall clocks. They were /not/ interested in any measures
to prevent

terrorism

Quoted message said:

elsewhere, until they had the full fury of a terrorist
atrocity inflicted

on

Quoted message said:

them.

The mistake you are making and have made is to assume that
there is one monolithic idea in the US on any problem in the
world. If some Irish Americans send money to the IRA, it
doesn't mean that is the face of US policy. People are
individuals in this country, not robots in lockstep with any
one ideology or government position. And, a blanket "they
were not interested in any measures to prevent terrorism" is
just childish boasting. Why? Because you simply do not know
what is going on in this huge country.

Quoted message said:

Facts:

Many of the Israeli leaders over the last thirty years
were "terrorists"

in

Quoted message said:

the forties.

So? Doesn't that depend upon one's interpretation of the
word?

Quoted message said:

A recent winner of the Nobel peace prize, well respected
world wide, was imprisoned for very many years as a
"terrorist".

Are you talking about Myanmar? And, who called her a
terrorist? You?

Quoted message said:

The US record (even now) on human rights (even for it's
own citizens of

some

Quoted message said:

races) is atrocious. It certainly was much worse in the
sixties than many countries it criticises.

Ah, you have now proved your ignorance.

Quoted message said:

Sort out the root causes of terrorism, (and it's funding),
thus removing

the

Quoted message said:

fuel to produce the next generation of terrorists. The US
activities since
11/9 have done more to make the world a less safe place,
and create more terrorists.

--

Quoted message said:

BD

And that wouldn't appease terrorists who are using religion
as their raison d'etre, now would it?

Pat in TX

Pat said:

I think what you and Donal are overlooking is the
fundamentalist Islamist "man in the street." These are not
exactly "thinking people" but those who are excited that
their leaders' plans have worked so well.

What would you have me do? Vote for someone I don't trust
just to [censored] the Islamic man in the street? That would
be a victory for al Qaeda.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think what you and Donal are overlooking is the
fundamentalist Islamist "man in the street." These are
not exactly "thinking people" but those who are excited
that their leaders' plans have worked so well.

What would you have me do? Vote for someone I don't trust
just to [censored] the Islamic man in the street? That would
be a victory for al Qaeda.

Donal Fagan AIA

no, of course not. I was referring to the belief that
people who examine the issue would not, perhaps, give much
credence to the belief that the Islamists' bombs brought
down a government. it is my belief that the common fundamentalist--
or even those on the sidelines in those countries just watching--
would take a different meaning out of the episode. IOW,
don't give those common people too much credit for
critical thinking.

Pat in TX

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This isn't either anti-Bush or pro-Kerry or even left vs.
right; just an observation and opinion:

Too many columnists and talking heads (and talk radio
boors) are tossing out words like "appeasement,"
"capitulation," "negotiation," and "surrender."

Show me a single serious politician anywhere (Right, Left,
Spanish, French, whatever) who has suggested either
"capitulation" or "negotiation," much less "appeasement"
or "surrender." This is a straw man with no basis in
reality.

What the world needs to do, however, is to realize that
the Arab national boundaries put in place after WWI
(Balfour) are artificial. What is going on in the mid-East
is basically a long-term, pan-Arab civil war, with the
thorny problem of Israel (product of post WWII Zionism)
put into the middle, and complicated by the meddling of
Western nations hungry for the natural resource of the
region. Terrorists want the West out of the region, so
that Islamic fundamentalism can prevail.

The West needs to decide whether cheap oil and support for
Israel are worth the fallout which comes from inserting
itself (the West) into what is going to be a 100 year
civil war, during which Islamic Arabia will work out its
own problems.

Islamic fundamentalism probably needs to see its day in
the region, in the same way that communism had to have its
defining moment in the sun. Communism burned out because
of its fatal flaws, as will Islamic fundamentalism. But
Karl Marx had his champions until he had his 15 minutes of
fame (in world history time), and so Islamic
fundamentalism is seeking its own 15 minutes of existence.
Its just not worth the aggravation to be involved in this
colossal mess. Not when the price to be paid is the
nuclear immolation of an American city.

TE Laurence gave up on 'the Arabs' in the end, because he
concluded late in life that there was not nation of 'Arabs',
just tribes.