HAT 50K

Doug Freese said:

Hinte_Anderson 50k, Aberdeen, Md.

who's hinte anderson?

Quoted message said:

Another one bites the dust. Compared to last years
mudfest, yesterday was a walk in the park. We were teased
with some pre race rain but only a little mud. Loss of
traction was minor, the first lap.

cool. i do remember your mud-report from last year.

Quoted message said:

The race is a two top loop course with the first leg 16
miles and second 15. I followed my race technique of an
easy the first lap and work the second. Just at the start
of the second lap it rained some more. Just enough to
drive me to uneven sides of the trail to get some
traction. Of course with the sides comes rocks and roots.

what happened to your screws? couldn't they have helped?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, my initial goal was 5:15 and finished in 5:22.
Considering the slop I was pleased. The first lap was 2:46
and second 2:36. Ten

nice effort. though, lap makes it sound a bit too
trivial. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I have no idea where I placed overall or within age. Next
year I get to compete with the real old farts.

holy saturn! are you telling us you're going to be 60?! man,
i remember when i first came here, you were like a 55-56
year old kid.

Quoted message said:

I went through three bottles of clip plus some water,
Coke, Mountain Dew and three slimfasts and felt fine the
entire time. I took an S!CAP every hour and a half since
the temps were much higher than I was acclimated

do they have water/fuel stations at each mile? or is this
one of those fat-ass ultras?

Quoted message said:

So number seven in the bank with a 50 mile race in three
weeks. Legs are little sluggish this morning but no limps
or pain. What training I'll do between now the 50 is
dependent upon my recovery time.

job well done. looks like you had a good time too. enjoy
your recovery.

regards jobs

Quoted message said:

what happened to your screws? couldn't they have helped?

The screws were in my head. When I took off for the second
lap the trail was drying nicely and decided not to change
shoes. About 15 minutes into the run it rained. I threw the
dice and lost( a few minutes)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, my initial goal was 5:15 and finished in 5:22.
Considering the slop I was pleased. The first lap was 2:46
and second 2:36. Ten

nice effort. though, lap makes it sound a bit too
trivial. 🙂

Just like any race you focus on smaller increments be it
mile markers, aid stations or laps. In my races it's aid
stations and or loops.

Quoted message said:

holy saturn! are you telling us you're going to be 60?!
man, i remember when i first came here, you were like a
55-56 year old kid.

Yup new decade. Like increments of races I'm just get from
year to year.

Quoted message said:

do they have water/fuel stations at each mile? or is this
one of those fat-ass ultras?

There is a restaurant every mile. Just kidding. A friend
came along and crewed for us. I could have managed
without his help but as long as he wanted to help I
accepted his offer. Yes, help is allowed at aid stations
that allow a crew.

It was a legit race with aid stations very 5-6 miles and in
the heat that was large bottle between stops.

Quoted message said:

job well done. looks like you had a good time too.

I had a great time and it's all part of a bigger
building block. The 50k is long run for the 50 and the
50 is one on my long runs for july 100. There is a rest
break after the 50.

Quoted message said:

enjoy your recovery.

My recover started at the finish line with a Heineken. I
claimed the back seat of the car(close to the cooler) on the
way back home and continued my carbo reloading. We stopped
to eat/stretch/potty breaks every 45 minutes. I had three
dogs and a cup of chili after the race. On the way home a
whopper with cheese and fries and Dove bar later. I can see
Donovan cringing. 🙂

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese said:

Hinte_Anderson 50k, Aberdeen, Md.

Just at the start of the second lap it rained some
more. Just

Quoted message said:

enough to drive me to uneven sides of the trail to get
some traction. Of course with the sides comes rocks
and roots.

Aww, you know you just wanted to play with the rocks and
roots since you haven't had that much chance on your
training runs 😉

Quoted message said:

Anyway, my initial goal was 5:15 and finished in 5:22.
Considering the slop I was pleased.

Congratulations!

Quoted message said:

Next year I get to compete with the real old farts.

and you'll be at young end of ag again!

Quoted message said:

The other reason I passed so many people, this race
appeals to first time trail runners at the 50k distance. I
ran the first lap with people that finished 2-4 hours
after I did.

ouch! that's almost 50% to 100% longer. I hope this was
early when you ran with these folks.

I always amazes me that so many

Quoted message said:

people have such a poor idea about pace. I guess this is
one way to learn although not fun.

For curiosity, would you attribute this to
1. people getting sucked into other people's paces
2. 1st trail race and clueless about differences between
trail and road or treadmill paces
3. inexperience at running without mile markers or other
clues as to pace (fits in with 1st trail race, sorta)
4. just plain didn't respect the distance - only a little
farther than marathon 😉
5. relatively flat course (iirc) and didn't take appropriate
walk breaks and hadn't trained for the distance / effort
they ran (or started to run)
6. other?

Just curious. I may be slow, but I'm usually consistently
slow - regardless of terrain, hills, snow, etc 😉

Quoted message said:

The weather got into low 70's but stayed cloudy the
entire time. I did not eat any solid food during the
race. I had my normal very large breakfast - french
toast, eggs, and bacon.

I didn't notice what time the race started, but where do you
find a real breakfast early in the morning. 24-hr
restaurant? McD's, where they exist, opens at 6 most places
where I've been, but otherwise many places up here don't
open until 7am (unless a 24-hr operation, which tend to be
disappearing). Some hotels might provide continental
breakfast for visitors going on wildlife tours or something
else special.

I went through three bottles

Quoted message said:

of clip plus some water, Coke, Mountain Dew and three
slimfasts and felt fine the entire time. I took an S!CAP
every hour and a half since the temps were much higher
than I was acclimated for. When all you long runs are 0-30
degrees, 70 is sharp increase.

ouch! Very nice time, but esp. if dealing with heat as well
as some mud.

Quoted message said:

So number seven in the bank with a 50 mile race in three
weeks. Legs are little sluggish this morning but no limps
or pain. What training I'll do between now the 50 is
dependent upon my recovery time.

Congrats! Enjoy your recovery. That must've been an
interesting ride home if stopping every 45 min.

Dot considering snowshoe running this week for the short
runs, but we didn't get as much as Anchorage

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

For curiosity, would you attribute this to
1. people getting sucked into other people's paces
2. 1st trail race and clueless about differences between
trail and road or treadmill paces
3. inexperience at running without mile markers or other
clues as to pace (fits in with 1st trail race, sorta)
4. just plain didn't respect the distance - only a little
farther than marathon 😉
5. relatively flat course (iirc) and didn't take
appropriate walk breaks and hadn't trained for the
distance / effort they ran (or started to run)

Probably some or all the above. I caught up to one guy about
mile 5 or 6 that likely weighed 240 and breathing heavy like
a pit bull was about to bite his ass.

6. other?

As for "other?", possibly running without water bottle and
not eating, drinking and forgetting about electrolytes(salt)
at the aid stations. It was only 70 but still an
unseasonably warm day. In most trail races only a small
percentage of people run without at least one bottle or
small camel back. It is so much smarter to constantly sip
then guzzle at an aid station. At this distance or longer
running without a bottle to save weight is dumb.

Quoted message said:

Just curious. I may be slow, but I'm usually consistently
slow - regardless of terrain, hills, snow, etc 😉

But you have to exposed through books, forums and other
people experiences and if anything will go out extra slow to
avoid a burn out.

Quoted message said:

I didn't notice what time the race started, but where do
you find a real breakfast early in the morning. 24-hr
restaurant?

The race started at 9 am and the hotel was 10 minutes from
the start. Basically up at 6, breakfast at 7, checkout and
off to the race by 8:15. There happens to be a 24 diner
very close and why I chose that motel. There was also some
great restaurants just a few miles away on the Chesapeake
Bay. We had a great lunch and dinner the day/night before.
I don't eat pre race dinners even if the meal comes with
the entry fee.

< Some hotels might provide continental breakfast for

Quoted message said:

visitors going on wildlife tours or something else
special.

In most motels and hotels you get a continental breakfast
but it's pastry and maybe an english muffin or cold cereal.
In any case not what I like to eat.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Macelroy would have run the entire thing with no fluid, no
carbs, no support, in record time. While coaching several
other world class runners.

BTW, Doug, another nice report and finish. Congrats.

M1ahearn said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had three dogs and a cup of chili after

the race. On the way home a whopper with cheese and fries
and Dove bar later. I can see Donovan cringing. 🙂 <<

Not to mention his boy macElroy!

Mike

Leo said:

Macelroy would have run the entire thing with no fluid, no
carbs, no support, in record time. While coaching several
other world class runners.

I know, I'm a speck of dust in his shadow. If I ever grow up
I want to be loved and revered just like him. 😉

Quoted message said:

BTW, Doug, another nice report and finish. Congrats.

Thanks...

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Nice one Doug!

Usual reliable pacing and splits.

Good luck for the upcoming 50-miler.

Anthony.

Doug Freese said:

Dot wrote:

Quoted message said:

I caught up to one guy about mile 5 or 6 that likely
weighed 240 and breathing heavy like a pit bull was about
to bite his ass.

geez. I woulda thought people woulda figured out some
basics like recognizing aerobic efforts for distance by the
time he tried a 50k. Unless he lost a bet with someone or
got talked into it.

Quoted message said:

6. other?

As for "other?", possibly running without water bottle and
not eating, drinking and forgetting about
electrolytes(salt) at the aid stations. It was only 70 but
still an unseasonably warm day. In most trail races only a
small percentage of people run without at least one bottle
or small camel back. It is so much smarter to constantly
sip then guzzle at an aid station. At this distance or
longer running without a bottle to save weight is dumb.

That is spooky that people know so little about their fluid
consumption.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just curious. I may be slow, but I'm usually consistently
slow - regardless of terrain, hills, snow, etc 😉

But you have to exposed through books, forums and other
people experiences and if anything will go out extra slow
to avoid a burn out.

I've also had to haul myself back to camp at the end of
long, wet field day or on backpack trips with zippo energy
in the distant past (but not out of memory). While my
running may not be that far along, I have a great respect
for distance and recognizing the agony (at best) of crashing
25 miles from trail head (actually, the last 12 are on
dirt/gravel road where a person could be rescued).

Quoted message said:

There was also some great restaurants just a few miles
away on the Chesapeake Bay.

For some reason, never associated HAT with being close to
Chesapeake, but now that you mention it, yea, Aberdeen is in
that neck of woods. BTW, did you see any cherry blossoms?

Quoted message said:

We had a great lunch and dinner the day/night before. I
don't eat pre race dinners even if the meal comes with the
entry fee.

ok, thanks.

Quoted message said:

In most motels and hotels you get a continental breakfast
but it's pastry and maybe an english muffin or cold
cereal. In any case not what I like to eat.

I agree. I'm a breakfast eater also, although not quite as
large as your pre-race breakfast 🙂

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese said:

Hinte_Anderson 50k, Aberdeen, Md.

<snip>

Not bad for an old man! When are you going to stop doing
these short lap races? ;-)

Of course I'll be looking to beat your time (on a much
faster course I think) in 2 and a bit weeks. I'm not
taking anything for granted though, specially with David's
dnf in mind.

Best of luck with the 50 miler. Is that one going to be a
multi-lap affair too?

Cheers.

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email. Please support
rheumatoid arthritis research! Visit
justgiving.comspeysideOpen ↗ or
justgiving.comspeysideOpen ↗ if you're a UK tax payer.

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hinte_Anderson 50k, Aberdeen, Md.

Another one bites the dust. Compared to last years
mudfest, yesterday was a walk in the park. We were teased
with some pre race rain but only a little mud. Loss of
traction was minor, the first lap.

The race is a two top loop course with the first leg 16
miles and second 15. I followed my race technique of an
easy the first lap and work the second. Just at the start
of the second lap it rained some more. Just enough to
drive me to uneven sides of the trail to get some
traction. Of course with the sides comes rocks and roots.

Anyway, my initial goal was 5:15 and finished in 5:22.
Considering the slop I was pleased. The first lap was 2:46
and second 2:36. Ten minutes faster but a mile less so I'd
say I ran even splits. Without the mud I would have been
negative. I can tell when I'm running well as no one
passed me the second lap and I picked up a [censored] load of
slots. They have only posted the top 11 men and women.
Whew! It does

good race report, doug. by the way folks, the mcnaughton
park 100, 50, 30, 10 milers are this saturday/sunday in
pekin, il. for anyone in the midwest that likes trail
running/ultras, this one is well worth
it. awesome trail, maybe the best in illinois. highly
recommended...

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

Doug Freese said:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The other reason I passed so many people, this race
appeals to first time trail runners at the 50k distance.
I ran the first lap with people that finished 2-4 hours
after I did.

ouch! that's almost 50% to 100% longer. I hope this was
early when you ran with these folks.

I always amazes me that so many

Quoted message said:

people have such a poor idea about pace. I guess this is
one way to learn although not fun.

For curiosity, would you attribute this to
1. people getting sucked into other people's paces
2. 1st trail race and clueless about differences between
trail and road or treadmill paces
3. inexperience at running without mile markers or other
clues as to pace (fits in with 1st trail race, sorta)
4. just plain didn't respect the distance - only a little
farther than marathon 😉
5. relatively flat course (iirc) and didn't take
appropriate walk breaks and hadn't trained for the
distance / effort they ran (or started to run)
6. other?

Just curious. I may be slow, but I'm usually consistently
slow - regardless of terrain, hills, snow, etc 😉

Hmm. 3 year anniversary of my one and only ultra, and it
was this one. My splits were something like 2:45 - 3:15,
so not quite poster child for even pacing, though better
than the folks Doug is talking about. (But the weather was
better, probably, my year.) Certainly I did very little
passing on the second loop, and was passed by quite a
number of folks. In context, not good pacing.

I'll second:
* Getting sucked in to other people's paces.

Quoted message said:

2. 1st trail race and clueless about differences between
trail and road or treadmill paces

I don't think so. Few folks I met who were first timers
were going straight from all road (much less treadmill) to
trail. Though for some this was the first long race.

Quoted message said:

3. inexperience at running without mile markers or other
clues as to pace (fits in with 1st trail race, sorta)

More so, more by way of getting sucked in to other
people's paces.

Quoted message said:

4. just plain didn't respect the distance - only a little
farther than marathon 😉

Not uncommon. It _is_ only a little farther than a
marathon. And HAT is an 'easy' course. (For track and road
runners: Bwahaha!)

Variation on this theme relevant to me: Insufficient
experience with the _duration_ of the race. Roughly
speaking, a 3:30 marathoner is looking at a 5:15 HAT, a
4:00 marathoner is in for 6:00. The extra
1:45+ is a _huge_ difference in preparation. Getting out to
a 3 hour run is a good mark in marathon training, and, if
you know your water/ electrolyte/calorie needs, probably
sufficient for the ultra as well.

You can bull through the 30-60 minutes beyond 3:00 in
running a marathon with only 'discomfort'. For the 50k,
you're looking at another 2-3 hours beyond that mark. Guts
alone won't get you far compared to that. For those
durations, you need knowledge and experience.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Tim Downie said:

Not bad for an old man! When are you going to stop doing
these short lap races? ;-)

In July when I do a 100 mile loop. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Of course I'll be looking to beat your time (on a much
faster course I think) in 2 and a bit weeks. I'm not
taking anything for granted though, specially with David's
dnf in mind.

I love it when the young bucks saddle up for one of these
short races.

Quoted message said:

Best of luck with the 50 miler.

Thanks!!!

< Is that one going to be a multi-lap affair

Quoted message said:

too?

Not a lap course per se. A 8 mile out-n-back with 34
mile loop.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Dot said:

For some reason, never associated HAT with being close to
Chesapeake, but now that you mention it, yea, Aberdeen is
in that neck of woods. BTW, did you see any cherry
blossoms?

Actually Havre de Grace, where we stayed, is is noted as the
place where the Susquehanna River meets the Chesapeake Bay.

No cherry blossoms. The trees were budding but a week or so
from blossoms or leaves.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <VeM9c.31800$tY6.941427@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Hmm. 3 year anniversary of my one and only ultra, and it
was this one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. just plain didn't respect the distance - only a
little farther than marathon 😉

Not uncommon. It _is_ only a little farther than a
marathon. And HAT is an 'easy' course. (For track and
road runners: Bwahaha!)

We see a lot of this in the RW forums where there are
separate forums.

Quoted message said:

Variation on this theme relevant to me: Insufficient
experience with the _duration_ of the race. Roughly
speaking, a 3:30 marathoner is looking at a 5:15 HAT, a
4:00 marathoner is in for 6:00. The extra
1:45+ is a _huge_ difference in preparation. Getting out
to a 3 hour run is a good mark in marathon training,
and, if you know your water/ electrolyte/calorie needs,
probably sufficient for the ultra as well.

That's a good point I hadn't thought about. Most of my
information gets absorbed from various internet places and
local ultra group, who routinely do 2-4 hr runs (not sure
what they do for long runs). So I seldom think in terms of a
3-hr run being the max, as is often suggested here. Many
people are doing at least 4-5 hr runs in training. I'm
figuring on 12-14 hrs (couple years yet), so I know I'm not
going to try it on 3 hr runs.

Good to see you posting again!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Quoted message said:

Variation on this theme relevant to me: Insufficient
experience with the _duration_ of the race. Roughly
speaking, a 3:30 marathoner is looking at a 5:15 HAT, a
4:00 marathoner is in for 6:00. The extra
1:45+ is a _huge_ difference in preparation. Getting out
to a 3 hour run is a good mark in marathon training,
and, if you know your water/ electrolyte/calorie needs,
probably sufficient for the ultra as well.

That's a good point I hadn't thought about. Most of my
information gets absorbed from various internet places and
local ultra group, who routinely do 2-4 hr runs (not sure
what they do for long runs). So I seldom think in terms of
a 3-hr run being the max, as is often suggested here.

Personally I find 3 hours a little lean for a 50k but I've
always been an advocate of 24-28 miles for a marathon.
Three hours runs will get you to the finish line but likely
a long day and a long recovery. As I've often said, time is
important but quality is equally important. As a silly
example three hours on a flat course for a hilly race is
not ideal.

Quoted message said:

Many people are doing at least 4-5 hr runs in training.
I'm figuring on 12-14 hrs (couple years yet), so I know
I'm not going to try it on 3 hr runs.

I agree as long as you can stay off the injured list. 4-5 is
ideal for a 50k-50 miles but not enough for 100k to 100
miles, at least for me. As you know from reading the ultra
list many do the longer distances on 4-5 hour runs. They are
also running close to the cutoffs and being pulled.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

Robert Grumbine said:

Variation on this theme relevant to me: Insufficient
experience with the _duration_ of the race. Roughly
speaking, a 3:30 marathoner is looking at a 5:15 HAT, a
4:00 marathoner is in for 6:00. The extra
1:45+ is a _huge_ difference in preparation. Getting out
to a 3 hour run is a good mark in marathon training,
and, if you know your water/ electrolyte/calorie needs,
probably sufficient for the ultra as well.

That's a good point I hadn't thought about. Most of my
information gets absorbed from various internet places and
local ultra group, who routinely do 2-4 hr runs (not sure
what they do for long runs). So I seldom think in terms of
a 3-hr run being the max, as is often suggested here. Many
people are doing at least 4-5 hr runs in training. I'm
figuring on 12-14 hrs (couple years yet), so I know I'm not
going to try it on 3 hr runs.

You keep good company.

Quoted message said:

Good to see you posting again!

It's good to be back. It's going to be a while before I
get back to the over-2 hour runs, as in at least a year by
current thinking and intent. But there are interesting
short distances. My current target race for 'serious'
preparation is a 10 miler late next February. A hilly (to
road runners) course. I'll use a difficult 8k cross
country course in November as an earlier training point.

Good to see that you're still getting out for your hours
of fun romping through the hinterlands.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freese said:

Dot wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many people are doing at least 4-5 hr runs in training.
I'm figuring on 12-14 hrs (couple years yet), so I know
I'm not going to try it on 3 hr runs.

I agree as long as you can stay off the injured list. 4-5
is ideal for a 50k-50 miles but not enough for 100k to 100
miles, at least for me. As you know from reading the ultra
list many do the longer distances on 4-5 hour runs. They
are also running close to the cutoffs and being pulled.

Personal variation is an amazing thing. A guy I know runs
marathons
and ultras (to 100k). For his 50 (and 50-ish -- London-
Brighton) milers
and the recent 100k (through the Egyptian desert), I don't
think he went
over 4 hours in training. Yet he brought home hardware
from the 100k.

He's also a reminder that personal variation applies to
form. I don't think he runs on a 180 cadence, and he
doesn't look like a gazelle in motion. But he has no
problem knocking off marathons and up, very fast recovery,
and runs a pretty quick race when he chooses to. We talked
about form, and his approach is simple -- one foot in
front of the other, repeat quickly.

While I wouldn't emulate his form or training, given
what I know doesn't work for me, it certainly does
work for him.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

In article said:

He's also a reminder that personal variation applies to
form. I don't think he runs on a 180 cadence, and he
doesn't look like a gazelle in

I saw Chad Johnson at the 8k championships. The guy looked
to me like he was overstriding. He just sort of loped along
-- at a 4:30 or so pace. He's 6 foot 2, so maybe his extra
height changes the tradeoffs associated with cadence.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Doug Freese said:

Dot wrote:

Quoted message said:

Personally I find 3 hours a little lean for a 50k but I've
always been an advocate of 24-28 miles for a marathon.
Three hours runs will get you to the finish line but
likely a long day and a long recovery. As I've often said,
time is important but quality is equally important. As a
silly example three hours on a flat course for a hilly
race is not ideal.

Right. Last year when I first started to build, I was
following conventional wisdom by building duration first,
then adding hills. Then came to the realization, that these
things use different muscles, so why worry about building
totally flat time first (other than AT considerations).
Steep hills weren't appropriate for my AT at the time, but
gently rolling ones were far better training and also
better for AT. And plain flat hurts also. The twists and
turns of single track actually seem to be the most
therapeutic this year.

This year I'm just including hills as I go and including
walk breaks for bad-footing snow, hills, or whatever. As I
get stronger weekly, I either increase number or size of
hills (not that big anyway, but they are the xc ski trail
ones) and/or decrease the walk breaks and/or a slight
increase in distance/time. What my body thinks it's ready
for I give it (actually, what really happens is I forget to
walk some of the hills). If it balks, I walk that portion.
My body is much happier with this approach - both mentally
and physically. When I get home, I feel like I've had a
workout, *slight* DOMS (the good kind that says I did
something) the next morning, rarely any after that. At least
so far it's working (knock on wood), and I am backing down
this weekend just for safety's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many people are doing at least 4-5 hr runs in training.
I'm figuring on 12-14 hrs (couple years yet), so I know
I'm not going to try it on 3 hr runs.

Clarification. Others, must faster than I, are doing at
least 4-5 hrs in traininng (not sure of what their long
runs actually are since weekly runs are 2-4 hrs). I'm
figuring that a unsupported 50-miler with 5000+ ft up
(maybe a little more down) on USFS trails (12 mi
dirt/gravel road at end, but it's up) (same race some of
these folks are likely training for) would take me about
12-14 hr (what the slowest ones take now, but would like to
make it more toward 12 hr) likely take me much more than 3
hr training runs to prepare the way *I* would like to
prepare to minimize pain on race day.

I haven't given a thought to length of longest training
runs, other than I'm sure they'll be longer than 4 hrs
(including walking) - including a few thousand feet of
hills. I suspect a lot will depend on how much confidence I
have in foot, which hopefully won't be bothering me at that
time or I wouldn't be considering the distance. If I can't
do adequate training runs, I'm not planning on doing it on 3
hrs long-training run and hope a magic carpet appears to
whisk me to the finish (my opinion of undertraining for
marathons) or with the anticipation of it being a pain fest
- more than would normally be involved for a 1st-time 50-
miler 😉 I may like a challenge, but I *do* have a little
sanity in what I pick for races and *will* do the
appropriate preparation. (I just can't imagine having the
AT/PF pain I had 5 yr ago and having to hobble another 25
miles to the finish or worse, expecting somebody to rescue
me. Recent past pain history is a good motivator to not
skimp on training. Although that was 5 yr ago, I can still
very vividly remember the pain from the worst days, and that
wasn't running related. I *will* train for and respect the
distance.)

Quoted message said:

I agree as long as you can stay off the injured list. 4-5
is ideal for a 50k-50 miles but not enough for 100k to 100
miles, at least for me.

I'm thinking I probably want at least half the duration -
and doing it solidly - or maybe many runs of 5 hrs - enough
so it's comfortable, not just surviving it. Maybe some back-to-
backs of 3-4 hrs.

As

Quoted message said:

you know from reading the ultra list many do the longer
distances on 4-5 hour runs. They are also running close to
the cutoffs and being pulled.

yep. Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope