Headset lifetime?

Quoted message said:

That is not the reason these bearings fail. You may think this is the cause, but it is not. If it
were, the dimples in a tightly adjusted bearing would cease to grow as soon as they generated the
slightest clearance.

This assumes that, once the "slightest clearance" occurs, that the rider isn't going to continue to
adjust his headset too tightly. Why would you make that assumption? If somebody started out by
adjusting a headset too tightly, why would they not continue that practice down the road?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden].> > The
key is adjustment. Most (nearly all?) threaded headsets start

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their life out adjusted too tightly, and this kills 'em. A new headset can be easily
overtightened and still feel smooth. The *only* way I've found to adjust a headset properly is
with the "bounce" test. Loosen the headset until you hear an extra vibration when you bounce the
front wheel on the ground (a couple inches will
do), and then tighten it ONLY ENOUGH SO THAT SOUND GOES AWAY. No more. You'll have to do this in
very small increments, and tighten the locknut against the cone each time. But it doesn't
take long, and will result in a headset that will last longer than you'd imagine.

That is not the reason these bearings fail. You may think this is the cause, but it is not. If it
were, the dimples in a tightly adjusted bearing would cease to grow as soon as they generated the
slightest clearance. In fact the pictures we just saw of rollers deeply indented in the races

belie that scenario... Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I've destroyed a Shimano 1055 headset in 500 miles. They just weren't very good.

Quoted message said:

Several of my bikes over the years came with el-cheapo-bastardo headsets (much lower quality
than the '105 you had) which I said I'd get around to upgrading when they wore out. Trouble is,
even the very cheapest headset, when properly adjusted, will take forever to wear out. If I had
a headset that wore out in less than 30k miles, I don't remember it.

It's the design of the bearing that makes the difference. Campagnolo Record head bearings failed
as fast as any mainly because they were rigidly mounted bearings. The ones I mentioned, have
spherical alignment that allows the bearing to take up fork crown swivel in a plain bearing,
leaving the ball bearings to do the steering rotation only. That is where the difference lies.

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Jobst Brandt said:

Quoted message said:

If that were so, what causes dimpled head bearings, and why would King, Cane Creek and Shimano
spend so much design work to introduce compound bearings for this purpose?

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Not to be cynical, but when you ask why somebody would come out with a new, often more expensive
design... I dunno, could it be that they want to differentiate themselves and make money?

None of these companies even mention compound bearings in their marketing material. And the compound
bearing is what differentiates their product. So hype is obviously not their aim.

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

That is not the reason these bearings fail. You may think this is the cause, but it is not. If it
were, the dimples in a tightly adjusted bearing would cease to grow as soon as they generated the
slightest clearance.

Quoted message said:

This assumes that, once the "slightest clearance" occurs, that the rider isn't going to continue
to adjust his headset too tightly. Why would you make that assumption? If somebody started out by
adjusting a headset too tightly, why would they not continue that practice down the road?

The adjustment is made once and probably not again. This is not something the average rider adjusts
on a routine basis, as you explained is the case with your own bicycles. I look after mine once a
year before taking off for the Alps every summer. I've had my Shimano Dura Ace head bearing for
probably 30000 miles and clean and grease the cartridge bearing once a year.

Before that I rode fixed race Campagnolo Record head sets that continued to get worse and worse
until I couldn't stand it, knowing full well that it wasn't a repair job but a replacement. These
head sets did not stop getting worse as they got looser. As you know, I've been doing this stuff for
a long time and don't leave things a mystery when they occur.

You were once a visitor on Wednesday evening tubular repair sessions with the other bikies back in
the 60's and 70's. We did more than patch tires and took care of mechanical flaws as well. This
routine gave me a larger sample than the average rider sees and having a technical interest in these
things I gleaned more information than others from it.

Meanwhile, it's snowing on the Stelvio and getting deeper:

stelvio.webcam.popso.itstelvio five.htmlOpen ↗

I love it when the first snow plow tracks appear in the spring, but before that, snow mobiles make a
reconnaissance. In winter the Stelvio summit is illuminated 24hrs a day.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, it's snowing on the Stelvio and getting deeper:

stelvio.webcam.popso.itstelvio five.htmlOpen ↗

I love it when the first snow plow tracks appear in the spring, but before that, snow mobiles make
a reconnaissance. In winter the Stelvio summit is illuminated 24hrs a day.

I hate it when you do that. Try to distract me with images of awesome places to ride.

Works every time.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Do you include shimano in that design work when they raised the stack height by 5mm making a whole
ocean of forks obsolete??

Boy did that [censored] me off as I have two bikes that use the short stack height...fortunately there
substitutes.

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

If that were so, what causes dimpled head bearings, and why would King, Cane Creek and Shimano
spend so much design work to introduce compound bearings for this purpose?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you need to face up to the cause of these failures and not rely on failed practices.

Quoted message said:

Thanks Jobst, kind as always. I can only speak from my experience with a NR headset I used for 16
years or so... that didn't fail, was well maintanned.

I can't reconcile years with distance. A length dimension is missing.

Quoted message said:

Do you include Shimano in that design work when they raised the stack height by 5mm making a whole
ocean of forks obsolete?

I didn't notice such a change as I switched from Campagnolo to Shimano. The Dura Ace unit fit my
fork with no change. Since I don't do this sort of repair much anymore, I don't get into changes in
stack height although I'm planning on getting a threadless fork one of these days.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

What's so magical about my bike, or my riding, that my cheapie headsets last forever?

* I ride (quite a bit) in the rain.
* I rarely take apart my headset and regrease it; on average, probably once every two years.
* I have frequently used not only the supplied cheapie headset, but also faced the headtubes,
relying on the factory installation (heaven forbid!).

And yet my headsets roll on and on and on and on. The current one on my 5900 doesn't count, since
that's a semi-pressed-in job with cartridge bearings. But every other headset I've used (except for
an A9 on my tandem) has been regular old caged bearing, including a couple $10 Tange jobs. And ever
since I started properly adjusting them (using the bounce test) way back in... '76? No more worn
headsets.

This mirrors my experience as well. I still have the original Stronglight Delta headset in my
primary road bike I built back in '95. I think it's been apart 2 or 3 times, and I may have replaced
the bearing in it once (don't remember for sure). But it's lasted many 10's of thousands of miles,
with much of the riding done in the rain and along the ocean. I've had similar success with other
"non-botique" headsets and have long since stopped being excited about any headset.

Quoted message said:

Since I don't think there's anything magical about how I ride, I draw the conclusion that proper
adjustment is the key, and that most bad headsets out there were probably too tight at some point.

One thing that I do is to add copious amounts of grease to my headsets
- enough that some migrates to the fork crown during the first couple months. Perhaps this is the
key to the longevity of my headsets?

Quoted message said:

PS: Not to be cynical, but when you ask why somebody would come out with a new, often more
expensive design... I dunno, could it be that they want to differentiate themselves and make
money? That they think it's a lot more profitable to come out with an expensive product than
to tell people they don't need something new, they just need to learn how to properly adjust
what they have?

I think it must have something to do with the graphics. The more expensive a headset it, the gaudier
the graphics tend to be. I suspect that's really why road bikes have 1-1/8" headsets now (more room
for gaudy graphics).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think it must have something to do with the graphics. The more expensive a headset it, the
gaudier the graphics tend to be. I suspect that's really why road bikes have 1-1/8" headsets now
(more room for gaudy graphics).

I've always suspected this is a major reason for large tubed frames as well. A lot of modern frames
are not that light, having gone well beyond the point of optimal tube size and wall thickness.

Matt O.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, it's snowing on the Stelvio and getting deeper:

stelvio.webcam.popso.itstelvio five.htmlOpen ↗

I love it when the first snow plow tracks appear in the spring, but before that, snow mobiles
make a reconnaissance. In winter the Stelvio summit is illuminated 24hrs a day.

I hate it when you do that. Try to distract me with images of awesome places to ride.

Works every time.

Yep, got that webcam bookmarked. Have the tickets to Venice already, and will abuse myself with the
Dolomites on the way to Stelvio .... sigh, still 6 months to go. Might have to use Sonora pass as a
tune-up before departing the bay area ;-)

- rick

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm said:

Do you include Shimano in that design work when they raised the stack height by 5mm making a
whole ocean of forks obsolete?

I didn't notice such a change as I switched from Campagnolo to Shimano. The Dura Ace unit fit my
fork with no change. Since I don't do this sort of repair much anymore, I don't get into changes in
stack height although I'm planning on getting a threadless fork one of these days.

With how many inches of travel?

Rick Warner said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, it's snowing on the Stelvio and getting deeper:

stelvio.webcam.popso.itstelvio five.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I love it when the first snow plow tracks appear in the spring, but before that, snow mobiles
make a reconnaissance. In winter the Stelvio summit is illuminated 24hrs a day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hate it when you do that. Try to distract me with images of awesome places to ride. Works
every time.

Quoted message said:

Yep, got that webcam bookmarked. Have the tickets to Venice already, and will abuse myself with
the Dolomites on the way to Stelvio .... sigh, still 6 months to go. Might have to use Sonora pass
as a tune-up before departing the bay area ;-)

I think you'll find the Stelvio easy compared to Sonora Pass. Although it's longer, it is less steep
and has its scenic wonders to distract from the work of climbing. Besides, you can look back and see
all the elevation gained.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Above all ant rest that has been said in this thread . . .

Dear Sheldon,

I'm baffled by your opening phrase.

A foreign language? A pun? Anagram? Typo? Cut-and-paste oops?

A mis-spelled, sluggish relative?

True insect lethargy?

Everyone else may understand, but please take pity on me and explain it.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, got that webcam bookmarked. Have the tickets to Venice already, and will abuse myself with
the Dolomites on the way to Stelvio .... sigh, still 6 months to go. Might have to use Sonora
pass as a tune-up before departing the bay area ;-)

I think you'll find the Stelvio easy compared to Sonora Pass. Although it's longer, it is less
steep and has its scenic wonders to distract from the work of climbing. Besides, you can look back
and see all the elevation gained.

So far, the only climb I've found similar (in toughness) to Sonora Pass has been Ventoux. But I'm
always looking for something tougher!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rick Warner said:

Quoted message said:

> Meanwhile, it's snowing on the Stelvio and getting deeper:

stelvio.webcam.popso.itstelvio five.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I love it when the first snow plow tracks appear in the spring, but before that, snow mobiles
> make a reconnaissance. In winter the Stelvio summit is illuminated 24hrs a day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hate it when you do that. Try to distract me with images of awesome places to ride. Works
every time.

Quoted message said:

Yep, got that webcam bookmarked. Have the tickets to Venice already, and will abuse myself with
the Dolomites on the way to Stelvio .... sigh, still 6 months to go. Might have to use Sonora
pass as a tune-up before departing the bay area ;-)

I think you'll find the Stelvio easy compared to Sonora Pass. Although it's longer, it is less
steep and has its scenic wonders to distract from the work of climbing. Besides, you can look back
and see all the elevation gained.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, got that webcam bookmarked. Have the tickets to Venice already, and will abuse myself with
the Dolomites on the way to Stelvio .... sigh, still 6 months to go. Might have to use Sonora
pass as a tune-up before departing the bay area ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you'll find the Stelvio easy compared to Sonora Pass. Although it's longer, it is less
steep and has its scenic wonders to distract from the work of climbing. Besides, you can look
back and see all the elevation gained.

Quoted message said:

So far, the only climb I've found similar (in toughness) to Sonora Pass has been Ventoux. But I'm
always looking for something tougher!

I haven't been there but I can't imagine the Ventoux has long sections of 20% grades as Sonora does.
If you want a tough climb, you have them nearby on Fillmore Street in SF and Marin Avenue in
Berkeley. Of course Filbert Street is the ultimate challenge for 50 yards in SF. However, you could
ride up the Muro di Sormano of which I recall the GdI, including Eddie Merckx walking. Only the
great hill climber Massignan rode, and to no great advantage.

Just walking your bicycle up to Rifugio Sennes from Peder? in the Dolomites is a challenge on
30%-60% grades, paved. To make up for it, the high country reached is worth every bit of effort.
It's magnificent.

cycling.uk.netvedla1.htmOpen ↗ oscartext.comRifugioSennes.htmOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So far, the only climb I've found similar (in toughness) to Sonora Pass has been Ventoux. But
I'm always looking for something tougher!

I haven't been there but I can't imagine the Ventoux has long sections of 20% grades as
Sonora does.

As much as I like to glorify Sonora Pass, the "long" sections of 20% grade are "only" 1km or so.
It's their placement that seems to make it so tough, particularly the first one up to the window,
just out of Dardanelle. There's simply nothing before it that prepares you for what you see when you
round that corner; thank goodness your mind doesn't work quite right so it actually looks steeper
than it feels (as if that's possible).

But Ventoux? It's the relentless nature of Ventoux that gets to you. For mile after mile after mile
it maintains a grade that runs within a narrow range of 9-10%. It's truly bizarre. And the views?
Until you get above the tree line, there are virtually no views of the surrounding area, just the
narrow corridor you're riding up. Most people say the worst part is the upper section, after it
clears the tree line. For me, that's where it gets interesting and fun! The grade eases off just a
bit, and you finally get incredible views of the entire region. Yes, you're out in the elements,
yes, it gets windy, but that's what makes it worthwhile. At least to me.

My guess is that you haven't ridden Ventoux because it's isolated from the rest of the mountain
ranges? Being all by itself makes it difficult to put together truly epic rides. Still, it's
possible to enjoy the rolling terrain that connects Ventoux (and Provence in general) with the
French Alps.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗