Helmets



Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
> It's surprising how much you can climb with your hands in
> your pockets if you really try. And if allowed a strong
> walking stick with a good crook you can get up a lot more
> without actually placing hands on rock.

You can always use a couple of those funny walking sticks
you see people using in the mountains - ice axes I think
they call them. Just hook the crook on the holds ;-)

Tony
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:03:58 +0100, Gawnsoft
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:33:28 +0100, Gonzalez
><[email protected]> wrote (more or less):
>
>
>>>The comparison between a climber and a cyclist is
>>>probably your best comparison to date since both are
>>>recreational activities which involve the production of
>>>body heat,

I know you qualify your attribution with "(more or less)",
but this is so far on the side of less to be absurd. I
didn't write a single word of the above attribution, and
what is more, I don't believe the statement to be true. I
believe that the closest comparison out of the helmet
wearing groups to be with horse riders, but am perfectly
happy to compare children sailing dinghies and wearing life
jackets/bouyancy aids with children riding bicycles and
wearing helmets. (Neither life jackets or helmets are
compulsory, some sailing clubs insist on life jackets, some
cycling groups insist on helmets, there is anecdotal
evidence that both have saved lives, some say that both are
cumbersome, hot and uncomfortable, some claim to have been
injured as a result of both, the effectiveness of both are
questioned if not correctly fastened.) I'll leave it to
others to list the myriad of ways the two items differ.
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:33:33 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

>Gonzalez <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>However, I will not tell children, "Don't talk to
>>strangers". The incidence of children being harmed by
>>strangers is *very* rare. If in trouble (lost, hurt etc.)
>>they should go to somewhere where there are lots of people
>>and ask (a stranger) for help.
>
>Since they are much more likely to be injured by their
>father than by a stranger, it would make much more sense
>for them to avoid talking to their father.

Not true. Deliberate harm by a biological mother (usually
suffering post natal depression) is more common than
deliberate harm by a biological father. (This doesn't
include harm or injury which while deliberate was not
intensional - eg smacking, where the intension is hurt).
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:15:47 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

>Gonzalez <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:08:23 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
>>family.com> wrote:
>
>>>Gonzalez wrote:
>
>>>> Have you tried running it?
>
>>>I've walked it in summer, winter, sunshine and ice.
>>>Running it does not mean you are running on every single
>>>step of the way. You run where you can and don't where
>>>you can't. That's why its a lot more energetic but not a
>>>lot more difficult to run as to walk.
>
>>And there you have me at an advantage. I have walked it
>>once, Snowdon to Pen-y-pass, in summer but moderately
>>high winds.
>
>>I have, however, walked the Aonach Eagach in winter
>>conditions, and hope to walk the Cuillin in early June for
>>the first time. I will take a helmet.
>
>The record for running the Cuillin Ridge is currently 3
>hrs 32 mins.

I expect to take 2 or 3 days if I do it at all.

How do you run up the In Pin?
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:57:37 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>If helmets "aren't special" then wear one to work and see
>how often anyone asks why you're doing it. Should be
>basically zero if, as you say, they're not in any way
>special outside in a benign environment. You could probably
>get away with the hiking boots, but when you're feet have a
>special smell at the end of the day you'll know why...

I wear a helmet to work daily.
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:08:08 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Gloves are associated with a need for protection, from cold
>or from roughness.

Hi Peter

I agree with you comment but I wear gloves because I have
very little feeling and not much strength in my right hand.
Also, my fingers on both hands tend to cramp after a while
if I don't wear gloves. Padded mits are the style I prefer
as the padding has the effect of making the size of the bars
seem larger.

Strangely, perhaps, even though I can't feel the right side
(front) brake lever particulcaly well, I have no problem
with front braking delicately.

James
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:18:19 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Something like skating and downhill skiing, you *need* the
>extra power because ankles can't really handle it.

Hi Peter

Agreed.

Getting back to the helmet side of things ... I'm absolutely
certain that I've fallen when skiing far more times than I
have ever fallen when riding a bike but I have never
considered wearing a helmet for recreational skiing and I'm
reasonably sure that most pro-helmet cyclists who also ski
don't wear helmets when skiing.

My second worst head injury was caused when I fell
following a pre-release on an icy mogul field. Although my
chin, face, nose and forehead looked a bit of a mess the
actual injuries were really no worse than quite serious
gravel rash. Oh, I bust a rib or several as well. Cure =
neither cough nor laugh!

I have noticed that many children, especially young ones,
wear protection when learning to ski. I wonder what the
stats comparing skiing and cycling suggest.

As a point of fact, I last skied about ten years ago on
30/04/1994, the day before Senna's death.

James
 
Jon Senior wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> > But you don't have to give monet back to all the
>> > punters. Just make sure that all biggish wins are well
>> > advertised.
>>
>> Sounds familiar. Every Wednesday and Saturday night The
>> National Lottery does precisely this!
>
> Exactly. If you ever go into a casino (Or indeed pub)
> which has some of the electronic irritating, bleepy, games
> machines, check the side or back of them for a label which
> states their payout. It's normally less than 20%. ie. 80%
> of what the punters put in goes to the operator / owner.

In my experience, the most common payout figure is 78%. If
the payout was 20%, people wouldn't play them.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/ Turning rebellion
into money
 
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:05:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>
>> I thought you were anti, I'm glad I was right. The
>> legions of the clueless, of course, refers to Fat Eric
>> and the Swamp Monster.
>
>Oi!
>

At least he didn't insult the Honey Monster.

James
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:56:07 +0100, "Simonb"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> that all biggish wins are well advertised.
>
>Sounds familiar. Every Wednesday and Saturday night The
>National Lottery does precisely this!

Hi Simon

Indeed. However, one must bring greed into the equation. One
has to balance the probable wasting of £2.00 per week
against the very unlikely chance of winning a great deal
more. As I spend far more on wine and used to spend on
ciggies each week, I'm prepared to chuck a couple of quid
down the drain.

I've become semi-hooked on internet poker recently. I enjoy
pitting my wits against other players. However, I don't
gamble as such because I don't play for money. I merely
enjoy the game itself.

James
 
Keith Willoughby wrote:
>
> In my experience, the most common payout figure is 78%. If
> the payout was 20%, people wouldn't play them.

High 70's to low 80's was the figure I was told

Tony
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:41:48 +0100, Gonzalez
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>I believe that the closest comparison out of the helmet
>wearing groups to be with horse riders

Despite evidence to the contrary and without any good
reason.

>but am perfectly happy to compare children sailing dinghies
>and wearing life jackets/bouyancy aids with children riding
>bicycles and wearing helmets.

Despite evidence to the contrary and without any good
reason.

>I'll leave it to others to list the myriad of ways the two
>items differ.

The list is indeed much longer than the list of similarity
(which runs to one item: you recommend special protective
equipment).

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
"James Hodson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:56:07 +0100, "Simonb"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> that all biggish wins are well advertised.
> >
> >Sounds familiar. Every Wednesday and Saturday night The
> >National Lottery does precisely this!
>
> Indeed. However, one must bring greed into the equation.
> One has to balance the probable wasting of £2.00 per week
> against the very unlikely chance of winning a great deal
> more. As I spend far more on wine and used to spend on
> ciggies each week, I'm prepared to chuck a couple of quid
> down the drain.

You could also put it as: £2/week = about £100/year or £5000
over your lifetime => no major effect on your life (as you
say, most people waste more on other things anyway). But if
you win, it alters everything.

I have to applaud you for understanding this, especially
because of the sheer number of people who are smug about not
understanding risk/reward strategies (and often parade it in
their signatures).
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

| Patrick Herring wrote:
|
| >> Now give us your reasons why two groups of people
| >> engaged in human-powered transportation, whose injury
| >> severity ratios and head injury proportions are
| >> comparable, and who are both most likely to die or be
| >> seriously injured when encountering a motor vehicle,
| >> should be treated completely differently?
|
| > There is an easy (devils-advocate) answer to that: "we
| > have to start somewhere and there already is a purpose-
| > designed helmet familiar to cycling culture". What would
| > you reply to that?
|
| 1. Compulsory helmet use has been tried in several places
| and failed in every one.

<devil's-advocate> They haven't made it worse and have
arguably raised awareness of safety issues in cyclists, else
why would so many no longer cycle? There are many people
alive now who wouldn't have been had they not been made
aware of the dangers of cycling. </devil's-advocate>

| 2. Helmets also do not prevent a substantial proportion of
| serious and fatal cyclist injuries, and may (on the
| evidence form around the world) increase the risk of
| crashing. The jury is still out on whether helmets
| worsen the most serious brain injuries (which would
| also help explain the failure of helmet laws).

<d-a> Preventing just one is sufficient reason to compel
helmets. I'll wait until the jury's in on the other aspect,
which doesn't make sense anyway. </d-a>

| 3. There is no evidence to suggest that cycling is
| uniquely dangerous or uniquery productive of head
| injuries.

<d-a> But bikes are inherently unstable, compared to feet
and cars. You'll be telling me next that unicycles are as
easy to ride as bicycles. Cyclists have no protection around
them and travel amongst fast vehicles, unlike pedestrians
who have their own space, so the risk is more present. Gotta
be more dangerous than all other modes of road-use. </d-a>

| Ultimately, if there was a universally obeyed helemt law
| which delivered the Government's predictions for serious
| injury savings without causing risk compensatory behaviour
| or reducing the levels of cycling (and that is two very
| big ifs), it could reduce the child road fatality toll by
| around 1%. Home zones, traffic calming and other measures
| aimed at reducing danger at source have far greater
| potential to reduce risk, and as a side benefit they
| encourage active travel.

<d-a> Sounds like we should do both. Anyway the more people
see helmets as normal the more it won't put people off.
People ought to be made more aware of obesity generally so a
little thing like helmets won't stop them. </d-a>

I'm trying to point out that in Reason v Fear the latter has
much the best track record of winning, particularly when
Reason is mostly talking about something not existing. It's
one thing to win the argument in a committee meeting,
another to win it around the water-cooler.

I suppose I'm suggesting that as well as your sterling
efforts in getting the facts under the noses of those that
need them, there is another way of arguing the case: I think
we need banner headline sound-bites here.

For example, my own view, that helmets are on balance more
dangerous than not in urban traffic, due to driver risk
compensation, would be expressed by "Because you might think
you can get away with it", or "So you /know/ you'd kill me",
or similar.

I see a range of t-shirts in the offing: "No helmet?" on the
front, slogan du jour on the back.

--
Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK http://www.anweald.co.uk
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:43:48 GMT, [email protected] (Patrick Herring)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

><devil's-advocate> They haven't made it worse and have
>arguably raised awareness of safety issues in cyclists,
>else why would so many no longer cycle? There are many
>people alive now who wouldn't have been had they not been
>made aware of the dangers of cycling. </devil's-advocate>

Except in Australia dna Alberta, for example, where they
have made it worse. And they have raised false awareness of
the dangers of cycling to the point wheere large numbers of
people have abandoned a safe and healthy activity.

><d-a> Preventing just one is sufficient reason to compel
>helmets. I'll wait until the jury's in on the other aspect,
>which doesn't make sense anyway. </d-a>

And what about the ones which may or may not have been
caused? And the fact that, by pretending they prevent almost
all injuries, you actively encourage risk compensation?

><d-a> But bikes are inherently unstable, compared to feet
>and cars. You'll be telling me next that unicycles are as
>easy to ride as bicycles. Cyclists have no protection
>around them and travel amongst fast vehicles, unlike
>pedestrians who have their own space, so the risk is more
>present. Gotta be more dangerous than all other modes of
>road-use. </d-a>

Which fails to explain why over half of all head injuries
are sustained due to trips and falls without the aid of a
bicycle....

><d-a> Sounds like we should do both. Anyway the more people
>see helmets as normal the more it won't put people off.
>People ought to be made more aware of obesity generally so
>a little thing like helmets won't stop them. </d-a>

Except that the mandation causes drop in cycle use which in
and of itself reduces cyclist safety, as well as bringing
substantial other disbenefits.

>I'm trying to point out that in Reason v Fear the latter
>has much the best track record of winning,

Too true.

>I suppose I'm suggesting that as well as your sterling
>efforts in getting the facts under the noses of those that
>need them, there is another way of arguing the case: I
>think we need banner headline sound-bites here.

And if you can come up with some you will be very popular.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:15:47 +0000 (UTC),
> [email protected] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:
>
> >Gonzalez <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >>On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:08:23 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
> >>family.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>Gonzalez wrote:
> >
> >>>> Have you tried running it?
> >
> >>>I've walked it in summer, winter, sunshine and ice.
> >>>Running it does not mean you are running on every
> >>>single step of the way. You run where you can and don't
> >>>where you can't. That's why its a lot more energetic
> >>>but not a lot more difficult to run as to walk.
> >
> >>And there you have me at an advantage. I have walked it
> >>once, Snowdon to Pen-y-pass, in summer but moderately
> >>high winds.
> >
> >>I have, however, walked the Aonach Eagach in winter
> >>conditions, and hope to walk the Cuillin in early June
> >>for the first time. I will take a helmet.
> >
> >The record for running the Cuillin Ridge is currently 3
> >hrs 32 mins.
>
> I expect to take 2 or 3 days if I do it at all.
>
> How do you run up the In Pin?
>
You don't, you run down it :)

Cuillins is a long day really, 2 to 3 days means either
going up and down unnessecerily, or staying over night up
there. wouldn't want to do the former, the later however
sounds positivly bonkers. IMHO of course. Oh and a helmet'll
be a waste of time, if you fall off there, concusion will be
the last of you problems. A woolie hat howerver is
obligotory. ;0)
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.
 
> I propose to stick to the cycling-is-as-dangerous-as-
> walking point

It's the tack I've started taking too. If they really want
to get into a debate about it I can start throwing arguments
backed up by figures, but launching into the whole tirade
just seems to bore people (can't think why
:) and the rest is completely counter intuitive so not
:really suitable for
the casual conversation, apart from maybe the 'not working
well against serious injuries anyway' bit.
 
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:41:48 +0100, Gonzalez
<[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:03:58 +0100, Gawnsoft
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:33:28 +0100, Gonzalez
>><[email protected]> wrote (more or less):
>>
>>
>>>>The comparison between a climber and a cyclist is
>>>>probably your best comparison to date since both are
>>>>recreational activities which involve the production of
>>>>body heat,
>
>I know you qualify your attribution with "(more or less)",
>but this is so far on the side of less to be absurd. I
>didn't write a single word of the above attribution, and
>what is more, I don't believe the statement to be true. I
>believe that the closest comparison out of the helmet
>wearing groups to be with horse riders, but am perfectly
>happy to compare children sailing dinghies and wearing life
>jackets/bouyancy aids with children riding bicycles and
>wearing helmets. (Neither life jackets or helmets are
>compulsory, some sailing clubs insist on life jackets, some
>cycling groups insist on helmets, there is anecdotal
>evidence that both have saved lives, some say that both are
>cumbersome, hot and uncomfortable, some claim to have been
>injured as a result of both, the effectiveness of both are
>questioned if not correctly fastened.) I'll leave it to
>others to list the myriad of ways the two items differ.

Woops - sorry - The attribution should be to Jon Senior, not
Gonzalez. My error when editing the thread down to the
relevant point. Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft:
http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr Symbian/Epoc wiki:
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:19:02 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote (more or less):

>"Just zis Guy, you know?"
><[email protected]> writes:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:49:25 +0100, Gonzalez
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>><[email protected]>:
>
>>>For hill walking I wear walking boots,
>
>>But no helmet? Christ alive, man, don't you /know/ that
>>half of all head injury admissions are due to walking?
>
>I often argued in the presence of a friend of mine, a fan
>of cycle helmets, that walking was statistically more
>dangerous to the head than cycling, especially walking down
>stairs or in rough country.
>
>I didn't know what to say when she turned up for a country
>hike quite seriously wearing a cycle helmet.

Proving what a good listener she is, or how persuasive
you were! :)

Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:55:53 +0100, Gonzalez
<[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:57:37 +0100, Peter Clinch
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>If helmets "aren't special" then wear one to work and see
>>how often anyone asks why you're doing it. Should be
>>basically zero if, as you say, they're not in any way
>>special outside in a benign environment. You could
>>probably get away with the hiking boots, but when you're
>>feet have a special smell at the end of the day you'll
>>know why...
>
>I wear a helmet to work daily.

Okay, continue to wear it after you have arrived, for the
duration of your working day...</pedant>

Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
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