High intensity training help.

[u23livestrong]

Hello all im Grayson and im 15 years old and i have been cycling for about 6-7 years now and im a road rider so my trainings key at my level. I have competed in nation events and i enjoy cycling as it is. Ok why im here is i have a race in about 4 weeks and i seem to be lacking high intensity when racing and hill climbing i have had past experience in track cycling so i know my stuff but im abit confused on the "high intensity" train of the body.. The race in about 4 weeks is a tt what is 2km pretty easy then a crit what is 15k then the 2nd day we have a hill climb (very steep but short) and the last event is the road race what is 35km with a rise for the finish..

What i need to know is how do i train my high intensity and what exsizes would be good for me todo.

My current training planing is around 2-3 hours aday and on the weekends maby some more.

Thanks again and i will be looking forward to hearing back /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

 

[An old Guy]

A while back some one was going to do a multi-day event and was looking ahead to the time trial on the second day. He crashed out of the event on the first day. Never did the time trial.

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I don't believe in short term gains due to training. Most short term gain is due to your mind suddenly realizing that your body can do more than it has been doing.

I would encourage you to set a goal for one of the races, come up with a plan that uses your current strengths to accomplish that goal, and finally execute the plan on race day. Take the rest of the races easy.

 

[bgoetz]

The best way to train for high intensity short efforts is to do high intensity short efforts in your training. IMO it all really depends on what your game plan is. That 2km prologue is super short, so to do well your effort is going to have to be a very hard violent effort, I would go out and do some 2km intervals pushing yourself until you pop. The hill climb sounds like it will be the same deal as the prologue, except you may want to do your intervals on hills, so you can figure out the right balance of power and cadence that will get you up the hill the fastest. If you focus on these two things, I would almost say that alone will be enough to train the high intensity aspect that you will need in the road race. However, if you feel that your best chance at placing well during the road race is in some type of a breakaway then you could always do some super hard 30 sec intervals followed up by the hardest steady pace you can for 10+ minutes (if you do it right the 1st 2 minutes of this effort should be hell).
.
Most importantly be sure to give yourself plenty of recovery high intensity days and get plenty of recovery prior to race day

 

[An old Guy]

Based on your age I guess you need kid gears.

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I don't really want to say this but, you should ignore bgoetz advice. 4 weeks is a bit short to expect results that will affect your performance in a 4 stage event. Yea, you might be a few places better but, most people will be enjoying the event.

----

I once road a 4 day stage race. My goal was for the 2 pros who had placed 1&2 in every stage of the race for the previous 2 years to not place 1&2 at least once.

The plan was simple. I would go out early on the first stage - 62 miles. The pros would chase me down by 55 miles, while the 1s&2s would sit in and rest. After the catch the fresh 1s&2s would attack. And the pros would not finish 1&2.

It worked so well. I got away early. Stayed away until after 55 miles. The problem was the 1s&2s decided to do the chasing and the pros sat in. As soon as I saw a very tired 1 at my side, I realized that it was over and the pros were about to pass by really fast. And they did. I was toast.

2 days later I was sitting toward the back talking with a lovely young lady, when the 2 pros went on their daily attack. The front of the group started to chase and I was left behind. I looked at the young lady and said: "Sit on my wheel and tell me how hard to work." After an extended period I caught the group off the front. Moved to the front and asked for help. Someone responded: "You caught us. You do the work." I rode tempo (25-27mph) with the young lady on my wheel for 90 minutes or so - to the final mile. Everyone was so tired that no one would come around. I just wanted to hide off the back some place and let anyone else finish 3rd. I think I had to slow to 10mph before people got the hint.

Win, lose, or draw stage races are fun.

 

[bgoetz]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


I don't really want to say this but, you should ignore bgoetz advice. 4 weeks is a bit short to expect results that will affect your performance in a 4 stage event. Yea, you might be a few places better but, most people will be enjoying the event.

.

Of course you would.

4 weeks is more than enough time to see significant results from high intensity training, in fact I would say as little as a week would be sufficient, although you need time for recovery. I am sure someone who knows even more than I will chime in, but two of the 4 events are going to require a unique type of pacing, so not only are you going to benefit from getting an idea of how to pace yourself you are getting valuable training.

Listen to me, don't listen to me, but all I would say is to look carefully at previous posts of some of the individuals on this forum before you pick a direction....

 

[quenya]

A 2k TT is a VERY short event. It could be a long AWC interval or more likely a short VO2max interval. Either of those systems though respond to training for a very short period. IIRC the famous Tabata study showed substantial improvement in AC and VO2max for 3-4 weeks then a plateau, I'm not recommending that protocol just pointing out that you still have time to 'sharpen'. A 2k TT is a tough test. Practicing that distance, especially pacing and an aero position, for a few weeks will pay off.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .



Of course you would.

4 weeks is more than enough time to see significant results from high intensity training, in fact I would say as little as a week would be sufficient, although you need time for recovery. I am sure someone who knows even more than I will chime in, but two of the 4 events are going to require a unique type of pacing, so not only are you going to benefit from getting an idea of how to pace yourself you are getting valuable training.

Listen to me, don't listen to me, but all I would say is to look carefully at previous posts of some of the individuals on this forum before you pick a direction....

Ok. 2K is 2 minutes. Give us a number. What is a significant result? 5 seconds? 3 places? Does it get him from the back of the pack to the top 3?

You give your Cat4 and internet racing experience to much significance.

 

[jsirabella]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .

I once road a 4 day stage race. My goal was for the 2 pros who had placed 1&2 in every stage of the race for the previous 2 years to not place 1&2 at least once.


2 days later I was sitting toward the back talking with a lovely young lady, when the 2 pros went on their daily attack. The front of the group started to chase and I was left behind. I looked at the young lady and said: "Sit on my wheel and tell me how hard to work." After an extended period I caught the group off the front. Moved to the front and asked for help. Someone responded: "You caught us. You do the work." I rode tempo (25-27mph) with the young lady on my wheel for 90 minutes or so - to the final mile. Everyone was so tired that no one would come around. I just wanted to hide off the back some place and let anyone else finish 3rd. I think I had to slow to 10mph before people got the hint.

Win, lose, or draw stage races are fun.

Win, loose or draw stage races are fun? Interesting goals.

Obviously based upon your post, trying to make others loose and no podium finishes are the goals. Definitely the guy's advice you want to follow. lol.

No more training needed as I can have no podium finishes right now.

-js

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .




Win, loose or draw stage races are fun? Interesting goals.

Obviously based upon your post, trying to make others loose and no podium finishes are the goals. Definitely the guy's advice you want to follow. lol.

No more training needed as I can have no podium finishes right now.

-js

A podium finish and $2 will get you a cup of coffee. But if you can beat the pros, go for it. Oh. Wait. I had a plan to beat the pros. And I went for it.

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I was at the Spenco 500 one year. Helping a Cat2.

Before the start I looked around and realized that the race would be over by mile 10. Sure enough by mile 10 even all the American pros were off the back like kids on tricycles. The third string pros from Europe were up the road doing 30+mph. They never let up.

Before the race those American pros had podium finishes as goals. I had a much better grasp on reality.

Get a grasp on reality.

 

[bgoetz]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .



A podium finish and $2 will get you a cup of coffee. But if you can beat the pros, go for it. Oh. Wait. I had a plan to beat the pros. And I went for it.

---

I was at the Spenco 500 one year. Helping a Cat2.

Before the start I looked around and realized that the race would be over by mile 10. Sure enough by mile 10 even all the American pros were off the back like kids on tricycles. The third string pros from Europe were up the road doing 30+mph. They never let up.

Before the race those American pros had podium finishes as goals. I had a much better grasp on reality.

Get a grasp on reality.

I am not really sure what the point of all of your fictitious stories are, maybe to make you seem like you were something that you were never and will never be. Well I hate to **** in the fake world that you live in, but I don't believe a word that you say for one second, and until you provide some proof that you even own a bike, let alone have ever been on the same piece of pavement as a pro, it will continue that way.

And BTW, a podium finish and $2 gets a lot more than a cup of coffee, if you ever raced or have ever been around racing you would know that races typically pay out down to Cat 4. Granted the OP will only get the satisfaction of standing on the podium since he is a junior, but you can't put a price on that and I would take it over $ any day..

 

[jsirabella]

og->Oh my good friend I have a very firm grasp of reality but reality does not always have a firm grasp on me. I am 47 years old, have a bit of a leaky lower back (put lightly), married, daughter and trying to keep a business and family afloat. For me getting back to my 260 watts, putting a bit of hurt on a few riders in CP on a weekday morning and hoping next year to do a local crit or TT once again will be fine by me.

I do agree that goals need to be set to have a reasonable chance of achievement but you my friend sounds like my wife and dad told me a year ago I sounded, you sound angry and bitter. I was angry and bitter cause I thought a simple slip stole my life away. It was a long couple years but I did not give up and against the odds I made a come back. From a guy who you could see his legs shaking as he walked down the block to now someone who could do 245 watt ftp and I can see the 220 watts for 2 hours in possible in the next month or so, I have already gotten on my podium.

So not sure what is going on in your life and why you are bitter but do not **** on the OP dreams as he does have a chance to reach that podium. Just cause your experience was sour does not mean that his has to be.

-js

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .




I am not really sure what the point of all of your fictitious stories are, maybe to make you seem like you were something that you were never and will never be. Well I hate to **** in the fake world that you live in, but I don't believe a word that you say for one second, and until you provide some proof that you even own a bike, let alone have ever been on the same piece of pavement as a pro, it will continue that way.

And BTW, a podium finish and $2 gets a lot more than a cup of coffee, if you ever raced or have ever been around racing you would know that races typically pay out down to Cat 4. Granted the OP will only get the satisfaction of standing on the podium since he is a junior, but you can't put a price on that and I would take it over $ any day..

You are a real Cat4. Go out and race with the big guys. There are a lot of open events. At least there used to be.

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I recall that you said you were going to ignore me. That would be priceless. ... but so much for truth on the internet.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

og->Oh my good friend I have a very firm grasp of reality but reality does not always have a firm grasp on me. I am 47 years old, have a bit of a leaky lower back (put lightly), married, daughter and trying to keep a business and family afloat. For me getting back to my 260 watts, putting a bit of hurt on a few riders in CP on a weekday morning and hoping next year to do a local crit or TT once again will be fine by me.

I do agree that goals need to be set to have a reasonable chance of achievement but you my friend sounds like my wife and dad told me a year ago I sounded, you sound angry and bitter. I was angry and bitter cause I thought a simple slip stole my life away. It was a long couple years but I did not give up and against the odds I made a come back. From a guy who you could see his legs shaking as he walked down the block to now someone who could do 245 watt ftp and I can see the 220 watts for 2 hours in possible in the next month or so, I have already gotten on my podium.

So not sure what is going on in your life and why you are bitter but do not **** on the OP dreams as he does have a chance to reach that podium. Just cause your experience was sour does not mean that his has to be.

-js

I don't think I am or want to be your "good friend."

This thread is not about you and your problems. It is about a 15 year old who wants to improve.

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I only mentioned my racing experience because people wanted to "know" more. But they really did not want to "know" more. They only want to be viewed as knowledgeable.

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Only 3 more weeks and we will know how that 15 year old trained and how he improved.

 

[jsirabella]

og->Given how bitter you are I doubt you have many friends, let alone good.

As far as the thread goes, the OP would get much more benefit from someone who sets his goals higher than yours.

-js

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

og->Given how bitter you are I doubt you have many friends, let alone good.

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

...putting a bit of hurt on a few riders in CP on a weekday morning ... will be fine by me.

So not sure what is going on in your life and why you are bitter but do not **** on the OP dreams as he does have a chance to reach that podium. Just cause your experience was sour does not mean that his has to be.

-js

You seem to be confused. You seem to want to hurt the guys you train with. I always wanted to help other guys do well - even in races. Around here that would make you the bitter guy.

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So far this week while bicycling:

I caught up to a young lady. I guess she was taking a respite. For the next 4 or 5 miles it was difficult for me to keep up as I tried to take pace off of her. I could say I was tired and near the end of my ride, but I am not as strong as she is.

A fellow with aero bars and shaved legs passed me. I took pace off of him for a while, 250-300w. (450w to catch up initially.) Fortunately our routes diverged before he dropped me.

A couple of the faster ladies stopped and asked my name. It appears that many people regard me as fast and they wanted to use my name in referring to me.

I can do a sub 6 hour century now. And I really do not want to get in good enough shape to ride any faster.

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I have told people how to improve in races: Bring (or make) friends. Work with them. (When I was racing, I would work for my friends. My friends doing good would make me happy. But then so does riding in last with my friends. And last happens.)

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

og->Given how bitter you are I doubt you have many friends, let alone good.

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

...putting a bit of hurt on a few riders in CP on a weekday morning ... will be fine by me.

So not sure what is going on in your life and why you are bitter but do not **** on the OP dreams as he does have a chance to reach that podium. Just cause your experience was sour does not mean that his has to be.

-js

You seem to be confused. You seem to want to hurt the guys you train with. I always wanted to help other guys do well - even in races. Around here that would make you the bitter guy.

---

So far this week while bicycling:

I caught up to a young lady. I guess she was taking a respite. For the next 4 or 5 miles it was difficult for me to keep up as I tried to take pace off of her. I thanked her for the pacing. I could say I was tired and near the end of my ride, but I am not as strong as she is.

A fellow with aero bars and shaved legs passed me. I took pace off of him for a while, 250-300w. (450w to catch up initially.) Fortunately our routes diverged before he dropped me. I thanked him for the pacing.

A fellow tried to sprint up a hill after he noticed I was some distance behind. He had a positional and speed disadvantage. But it took 450w to catch him. I caught him just as he ran out of power. I shut it down and finished the climb at 350w. I thanked him for the challenge he presented.

A couple of the faster ladies stopped and asked my name. (I was at a water fountain filling my bottles.) It appears that many people regard me as fast and they wanted to use my name in referring to me.

I can do a sub 6 hour century now. And I really do not want to get in good enough shape to ride any faster. I think some of the people I see during the week want to ride the fall century with me. I hope they don't want to go fast.

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I have told people how to improve in races: Bring (or make) friends. Work with them. (When I was racing, I would work for my friends. My friends doing good would make me happy. But then so does riding in last with my friends. And last happens.) It appears that you have contributed no ideas how the OP should train to achieve his goal.

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Years ago. We were doing our fast weekend rides and the local "racing" team showed up - Cat3s, Cat2s, and a Cat1. They wanted to race. We settled on a hilly 12 mile course. So I led 50 miles at an easy tempo, 19-20mph, to the course. We took a short break. Our ride leader told the racers it would be hard and that the weaker riders should start before the stronger riders. We sent our weaker riders out early and enjoyed a more leisurely break. Our ride leader, who was in his words "old and out of shape," rode tempo - 25mph, to the first hill. He was still doing 25mph at the top. The "racers" were well off the back already. No need to go into more detail.

He embarrassed the "racers." (The 62 miles back home (I rode tempo at the front) was long for them.) If they were hurt, they did it to themselves.

Is that a better story?

 

[Felt_Rider]

Okay, I see we are telling stories again today.

I'll give it a shot.

Just the other day I passed by a guy cooling his neck with the local water hose by the path. He must have been a pro because he was wearing a full Garmin Cervelo kit. He saw me go by at a 45 mph conversation pace and thought that he would hang on my wheel so I calmly ramped up my sustained wattage to 1200.

It was a shame to see a pro level rider struggle the way he was so I slowed down to 35 mph and asked if he would rather pull a while. There were white elephants on the side of the road and 20 circus clowns stuffed into a VW so I thought maybe I should stop again at the next house and cool my neck with a water hose.

When I got back on the pathway I was real friendly to a few Cat 1's & 2's and thought maybe I could help them but I really did not feel like riding down at their 25 mph pace and I felt embarassed that they could not hold my incredible 1000 watt conversation paced tempo, but they did enjoy the dolphins were swimming next to us and a pink fairy that was hovering real close next to a fluffy cloud. The fairy asked me if I had seen a VW with 20 circus clowns and I said, "yes, they are back a few miles." The Cat 1's & 2's were not impressed that I could have a conversation with a pink fairy while they were struggling to hold me wheel.


Is that a better story?

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

Okay, I see we are telling stories again today.

I'll give it a shot.

Just the other day I passed by a guy cooling his neck with the local water hose by the path. He must have been a pro because he was wearing a full Garmin Cervelo kit. He saw me go by at a 45 mph conversation pace and thought that he would hang on my wheel so I calmly ramped up my sustained wattage to 1200.

It was a shame to see a pro level rider struggle the way he was so I slowed down to 35 mph and asked if he would rather pull a while. There were white elephants on the side of the road and 20 circus clowns stuffed into a VW so I thought maybe I should stop again at the next house and cool my neck with a water hose.

When I got back on the pathway I was real friendly to a few Cat 1's & 2's and thought maybe I could help them but I really did not feel like riding down at their 25 mph pace and I felt embarassed that they could not hold my incredible 1000 watt conversation paced tempo, but they did enjoy the dolphins were swimming next to us and a pink fairy that was hovering real close next to a fluffy cloud. The fairy asked me if I had seen a VW with 20 circus clowns and I said, "yes, they are back a few miles." The Cat 1's & 2's were not impressed that I could have a conversation with a pink fairy while they were struggling to hold me wheel.


Is that a better story?

You are a much stronger rider than I. If you can do what you claim, I am sure you can get a good contract to ride next year.

 

[quenya]

 

Ok. 2K is 2 minutes. Give us a number. What is a significant result? 5 seconds? 3 places? Does it get him from the back of the pack to the top 3?
 
You give your Cat4 and internet racing experience to much significance.

According to the study I mentioned above, Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermittent Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max, commonly referred as 'Tabata' subject's VO2max showed an increase of 5+- 3 ml/kg/min over 3 weeks and 7 ml/kg/min over the full 6 weeks. They also showed a 28% increase in anaerobic capacity (over 6 weeks) Regardless of the physiologic benefits of training supra-maximally to sharpen for the event, practicing position and pacing (which would qualify as supra-maximal training specific to the event) would provide a huge benefit even in a short time. As aerodynamics and pacing are two aspects of the pursuit that can affect overall time a great deal (see The individual pursuit: demands and preparation, by Dr. Coggan). As far as how many seconds and places can be gained by preparing specifically for the event... It seems that if the fields are competitive a 5 second total improvement could be the difference between standing on the podium or not, that could be gained, or at least not lost from pacing alone.

 

[lanierb]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .

I don't believe in short term gains due to training. Most short term gain is due to your mind suddenly realizing that your body can do more than it has been doing.

I'm with bgoetz on this one. It's pretty well established that high intensity work immediately prior to a race period is very effective. It might be partly due to what OG is saying: that you are basically resetting your perceived exertion but, having experienced it many times, IMO it is not that simple. Four weeks is definitely enough time to see some gains in my experience.

Also, in case you don't believe me and bgoetz, here is a reference to a well known paper that shows rapid short term gains in VO2Max from high intensity training:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/838658

More details on how to implement this: in the weeks before the race I would add some L5 intervals into your training, maybe twice per week. Start easy -- say three 4 minute intervals in a training session, in the middle of a longer ride. Hold an approximately constant power during each interval and don't quite kill yourself -- choose the pace so that the first minute isn't bad, the second and third ones you start to feel it, and the fourth one takes good concentration to hold the pace and you are somewhat gasping for air by the very end. Make sure there are no stop lights or stop signs during the interval. Rest for 4 minutes between intervals. On the very last interval of the session you can go for it if you want. Build up so that you can do 6-8 of these intervals in a session. Make sure you warm up for about 15-30 minutes beforehand and maybe also ride another 15-30 minutes afterward. Also, make sure to ride on the easy side the next day. Don't go hard two days in a row.