I believe it's measured via incremental load testing, i.e. not the typical testing one could do solo by a max effort or by reviewing ride data. This thread may contain some helpful starting info: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/317885/peak-power-output-ppo-determination
Thanks for that. For clarity, here's the relevant bit from the other thread:
Using that protocol, I would guesstimate my PPO power at ~290-300w which would make 80% PPO ~235w. I would be surprised if 5 min on and 1 min off at 235w did anything more for me than 2x20 at ~225w which is my SST level. So either that's not the PPO in the table posted above, or I'm way off my estimate, or a 5:1 work:rest at threshold does what any other work at/around threshold does (no surprise there!)
Not knowing your true PPO, and taking a super wild guess at your FTP being ~250 (if you are using 90%), I would tend to agree. Since the studies mention "trained" cyclists (>60mg/kgVO2) I'm guessing these riders already do (or did) some steady work around threshold.
My FTP taken by the usual "AP for an hour" method is nowhere near 250w though to be fair I've never raced uphill for 60 min so wouldn't be far off that in my peak of the season. I've got it set at 240w right now through a combination of SST work, testing, IF values of hard rides, and the other usual stuff. I have logged about 60,000kms with power over 5 years so basically it's just experience that tells me my FTP more than anything else -- it is an arbitrary number after all and consistency in measuring is most important, rather than the actual real number.
If I ride as hard as I can for a minute, I cannot ride again for a number of hours, I absolutely have to crawl home at no higher than 60-70% of threshold, so I don't get what the 3 minutes is really about. Presumably it really means you should do the first minute actually bearing in mind you're going to do more?
16 intervals is a lot. Granted if I calculated correctly it's only at slightly over 120%FTP which is the intensity anaerobic intervals should start with (depending on which schema one is using <120% is still L5 and VO2 territory where intervals should run anywhere from 3-8mins). I did one of Chris Carmichael's interval heavy plans a few years ago and if I remember correctly he called for something like 3x(3x2min interval) for a total of nine intervals at anaerobic intensity with 5 or 6 minutes between sets. It gets a bit convoluted to nail down a precise intensity mapping against a %of FTP as while he uses a % based on a field test, the test is a much shorter duration, something like 10 minutes, so one is going a lot harder during the test than one would for go for an hour (or even the popular 20min field test), i.e. his 101%+ is very different than 101%+ of FTP.
And while you believe you may collapse in a heap after one set of the above, and indeed it often feels like the grim reaper is knocking on the door when in the middle of one of these workouts, very often that rest between sets is enough to recoup for another go. A lot of that depends on the quality of the base before such a strategy is undertaken as when fitness is high and the athlete is relatively fresh, recovery should come quickly.
Did you see Jesus?
I generally have a good base of fitness - certainly if I ever consider doing a max 1 minute effort I would have, regularly having CTL's over 100 (Power profile is ~4.6w/kg FTP, 5w/kg 20 minute, 6w/kg 5 minute, 9w/kg 1 minute) mind you to get close to that 1 minute I have to start with a sprint, partly I'm sure to take advantage of my good neuromuscular power, but presumably also to help buffer the anaerobic energy that comes after. Over 620w requires me to go home, 550w without a sprint start is repeatable, for me I'd say anyone who could even begin to complete that workout is not anywhere near delivering on their 1 minute potential. But of course, not everyone is likely the same as me, and it's possible some people can isopower a max 1 minute effort, I can't after 45seconds I'm doing the same watts as if I started at 1000w or 500 for the first 10 seconds.
Very nice numbers JibberJim. Maybe his suggestion to ride as hard as you can for a minute shouldn't be taken too literally, especially in your case
I too may be guilty of over simplifying things when saying one should be able to carry out a repeatable attack at 100%. I think for fledgling racers without power meters his advice isn't bad. It's a tough thing to quantify a training effort in words. But when training without a power meter as many racers still do trial, error, and general perception is really all there is.
I don't know if you have actually tested this type of workout, but I regularly do repeats of AWC efforts to exhaustion with 5min recovery durations. AWC has two parts, the larger of which recovers with a 30sec half-life, so that part is virtually fully recovered after 5mins. The smaller part of AWC has a much longer recovery half-life, hence the declining performance of track performances over the course of multiple heats. My protocol is to pick a constant power target that will give me an initial duration of ~3min, although one could choose a power target to target any duration from ~30sec to 3min. I ride the first one to exhaustion, ride at a recovery pace for 5min, then repeat for as many sets as I want (usually 10). Due to the fact that one of the two parts of AWC has a long recovery half-life, the durations will progressively decline. One of the reasons I do these sets is to measure the size of my AWC Part B. I use this data to supplement my MP/duration curve, for various purposes.
A ~2-3 minute interval rep is quite common for me, max efforts on the hills when the cars are not in the way in our local park leads to quite a bit of that, equally 30second reps I can repeat well, but 1 minute is flattening, knocks me out completely, I've done over 600 watts on quite a few occasions, and every time I've had to crawl home, so it's quite rare for me to attempt it. I will do lots shorter than 1 minute though, and loads of 4-8 minute max efforts (the duration of the hills near me). The only way I ever managed to do any sort of 1 minute intervals is to do them at much less than my max 1 minute power, I could do a lot better with 45second intervals, but the 50-60 second part is just debilitating.
You're not supposed to ride it like the first 2/3rds of a kilo.JibberJim said:
If you're coming to the sport fairly late on or you've not done any very high intensity efforts in a very long time, it does take a while to get fit enough to do it. Just because a L5 effort is supposed to be just that, if you can only do 1 effort in that range then a bit of experimentation will be required to see what you can manage for the number of intervals you need to do. You'll never be able to do a flat out 1 minute effort. Ever. Even the world champ at the Kilo TT can't do a full gas 58 second effort - pacing is required or you'll fall flat on your ass around 40 seconds and change. Give it a couple of months and you'll get there - like with all training it takes time, a ton of sweat and the feeling you're gonna puke a couple of times...
I know exactly what I can do repeatable 1 minute efforts at, and they are nowhere near my max 1 minute power. It's perfectly reasonable to say you should do them at a lower power so you can repeat them, but then the description of "ride as hard as you can for a minute" disappears, and it would be better to describe the workout how it is.Originally Posted by swampy1970
You're not supposed to ride it like the first 2/3rds of a kilo.
If you're coming to the sport fairly late on or you've not done any very high intensity efforts in a very long time, it does take a while to get fit enough to do it. Just because a L5 effort is supposed to be just that, if you can only do 1 effort in that range then a bit of experimentation will be required to see what you can manage for the number of intervals you need to do.
If you haven't trained for it (i.e. you're a L2, 3 and 4 guy) the don't expect L6 to be something you can achieve within the first couple of months of trying. It takes time. If you need to lower the power down to do the number of repeats or find a compromise, then do so. L6 ventures into the territory of "the f**king grim." It's a horrible place where you need to relax yet put out ungodly watts. It takes time to learn how to turn everything on, especially if you're trying to do this at an rpm that you don't normally ride at.
I agree with you.
You have deep experience with a power meter, tons of data to review, and are applying these "scientific" observations/parameters to the nuances of the English language as being applied to descriptive terms a coach may use to define intensity zones to a rider training without a power meter.
I see what you're saying, but I don't understand it. Anaerobic work capacity is made up of two parts, the larger of which recovers with a 30sec half-life, so that part of your AWC is virtually fully recovered very quickly (e.g., 5mins). The other, smaller part, does have a long recovery half-life, so it's probably not fully recovered until the next day. So, yes, an AWC effort that exhausts your AWC (whatever the duration) is not 100% repeatable in the short-term due to the smaller part of AWC that has a long recovery half-life, but one can do near-repeats based on the larger part of AWC that has a 30sec recovery half-life. Unfortunately, little research has been done in this area, to isolate the relative sizes of Part A and Part B and the recovery half-life of Part B, although one can draw some general conclusions from studying track cyclists' performances over the course of multiple heats in the same day. I have done my own research on myself, to understand these relationships in order to develop optimal power management models, but I have no idea if my metrics are representative of a larger population. FWIW, my tests suggest that my Part A is ~90% of total AWC.
Everything you say is true about training with power. One size has never fit all.
