Hills killing me



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>My ratio's are 53/39 on the front and 21-19-17-16-15-14-13-12 Yip - ita a roadbike.

Concurring with the smart others, that gearing is terrible for hills. You have to be a serious
rider to hack a meaningful hill in 39/21. Those of us who are recreational to middle level riders
cannot do it.

Doug
 
Greg wrote:
> My gear ratio's are 53/39 on the front and 21-19-17-16-15-14-13-12

I strongly suggest next trying a 13-26, and then consider a triple crankset if the hills are steep
and you like to spin seated with a high cadence up them*. Borrow a bike with true granny gears to
see if that style suits you. It does me, and I wouldn't be without a triple (or touring-double
maybe) for non-competitive cycling in hilly areas.

* These two are not mutually exclusive so the cassette would not be wasted. You might find you like
a 13-26 WITH a triple! BTW, starting at 13 teeth helps keep the ratios close and 53x12 is hardly
required by most riders.

~P "28x27" B
 
"Benjamin Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I don't do Randonneurs, because, my ride are done at my pace. People I ride with, ride at
> > my pace.
>
> Nothing wrong with that; I just want to point out that most randonneur rides are done in the
> "allure libre" style these days, meaning you can go at whatever pace you want (as long as your
> average speed including stops
is
> above about 9.4 mph).
Yup that is the reason; 340/40 =8.5 , this is with no sleep and four food/ potty stops. I envy
riders who can do the Radonneur. With more training and not carring a complete repair kit, one day,
I still may try a Radonneur. My friend and club member Dave Johnson let the cat out of the bag about
my age. I am blesses and lucky to still bicycling at seventy. However, I still get carded when I
flash my medicare card carying my bicycle on the subway (free) or regional rail(half fare). I
started adult bicycling when my daugthers got their bicycles and I was about 35. I have never rode
consistly above 12 mph. My weight has creep up to 220 pound at one time. My current touring bicycle
without pannier, but with racks and front bag, weigh in at 40 pounds. Last year after much peer
preasure from the faster riders in our club, I bought a used R600. weight 21 pounds with tools in
the seat bag. Both bicycles are Cannondale tripple, touring front 50-40-28 rear 13-34. Road front
52-42-42 rear 12-26. Apprently the weight matter, I am better on hills with the road bicycle. I live
near an annual bicycle course and entertianed thoughts of entering next year. I trained for a while
and was up to 15 mph average on that 30 mile course (10, 3 miles loops). I wanted to enter for all
of us seniors, but it wasn't fun just looking at the road and pedalling away. Winter is here and I
am riding the touring bicycle with insulated dress boots and toe clip for warmth. Who know, come
spring maybe I will attack the course again, or tour east to west across the country.
>
> --
> Benjamin Lewis
>
> Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
> -- Mark Twain
--
// Bill Cotton: Latitude N40° 03.756' W75° 06.192' / / Phone 215 663-8363 Data 215 663-8364 //
[email protected] [email protected] // [email protected] [email protected] //
www.billcotton.com
 
[email protected] (Claire Petersky) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> > Three words Training, Training and Training.
>
> I can only agree. I used to be a really lousy hill climber until I started regularly riding with
> "Luvs Hills" Lester. After week after week of doing rides that mostly consisted of powering up one
> hill and whipping down another, I became a better climber. It's not a matter of technique, I don't
> think (although you do learn to shift into gears at more opportune times) and it isn't a matter of
> the mechanics of the bike. It's just a matter of going out there and throwing yourself at hills,
> over, and over, again.
>
> Claire Petersky ([email protected])

Or Psychology, Psychology, Psychology.

For years I <knew> that I'd never get better on hills unless I did a lot more - and more consistent
- training, but I never managed to follow though. I wound up with this whole complex of being
nervous about unknown routes because I knew I'd have a hard time on the hills and never getting
better on hills because I only rode on the flats.

Then I took up touring again (after a lapse of some twenty years) and got myself a bike with
absurdly low gears (sub 20"). I almost never go to the granny, and never to the bottom gear, but the
comfort that "there's plenty more [gears] where that came from" calmed me down a lot so that I could
just take each hill as it came, without getting all balled up in my own inadequacies or what I
"should" be able to do.

That, in turn, brought me to my second "breakthrough". You're SUPPOSED to go slower uphill (well
DUUUH!). Before, I had been trying to maintain at least my cadence (isn't that why we have gears?)
and I fought the deceleration uphill. That left me thrashing around, winded, achy and discouraged.
Then one day, I found my sweet spot -- a cadence that's well under my normal one, but that I can
sustain at length going uphill.

Am I fast? No. But I do climb better (faster with less obvious effort) than many people I know who
are in better shape, weigh less and are on lighter bikes. On tour last Spring, I had to work to keep
up with some of my friends on the flats, but I found I actually looked forward to resting a bit on
the climbs. Mind-blowing.

Peter Storey
 
David Damerell at [email protected] wrote on 1/20/03 1:02 PM: <snipped>
> I have a 52/39 on the front (why a 39? They don't come any smaller in 130mm BCD), but a 13-34 on
> the rear - much more useful.

Actually, you can get a Sugino 38T that'll fit. I did that on my cross bike.
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:A2k*[email protected]...
> Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> >My gear ratio's are 53/39 on the front and 21-19-17-16-15-14-13-12 - is
this
> >normal?
>
> Is it normal? Yes. Is it good? No. What are you (or any normal non-racer) going to do with a
> 53/12, eh?

I agree. A 52x13 is sufficient for most.

> I have a 52/39 on the front (why a 39? They don't come any smaller in 130mm BCD), but a 13-34 on
> the rear - much more useful. I don't have the teeny jumps you do, but they are not really useful
> for normal riding.

Those teeny jumps are nice. For the heck of it, I put a 13-21 7sp cassette on my tourer/commuter,
with 48/36/26 triple. I like it *alot* better than a wide-ranging cassette on the back. I think if
you must have wide range gearing, go wide in front and narrow in back. It turns out you rarely need
those low, low gears, so I'd rather have to deal with it occasionally up front.

> However, if your machine came with a 'road' derailleur it probably will not accommodate a rear
> sprocket larger than _about_ 28t. That would still effect an improvement.
> --
> David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
>

Robin Hubert
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:A2k*[email protected]...
> Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> >My gear ratio's are 53/39 on the front and 21-19-17-16-15-14-13-12 - is
this
> >normal?
>
> Is it normal? Yes. Is it good? No. What are you (or any normal non-racer) going to do with a
> 53/12, eh?
>
> I have a 52/39 on the front (why a 39? They don't come any smaller in 130mm BCD), but a 13-34 on
> the rear - much more useful. I don't have the teeny jumps you do, but they are not really useful
> for normal riding.

Well, you can get a 38, but that doesn't make alot of difference. The other option is to get a
110bcd crankset, that'll give you more options. Try www.rivendellbicycles.com for the old
Ritchey double.

> However, if your machine came with a 'road' derailleur it probably will not accommodate a rear
> sprocket larger than _about_ 28t. That would still effect an improvement.
> --
> David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
Thanks guys for all the posts. Looks like its definately a trip to the cycle shop :)

"Jim Edgar" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:BA51FE01.35D0B%[email protected]...
> Greg who started this thread at [email protected] returns:
> > Thanks for all the feedback.
> >
> > My gear ratio's are 53/39 on the front and 21-19-17-16-15-14-13-12 - is
this
> > normal?
> >
> > I've tried various combinations of gears but find when I go into the
hill I
> > just loose all momentum - the legs just strain to turn over :) Did a 10km hill on the weekend
> > which was sheer hell.
>
> Yikes....
>
> At least slap a 12-25 on that thing and save your knees.
 
Robin Hubert <[email protected]> wrote:
>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>I have a 52/39 on the front (why a 39? They don't come any smaller in 130mm BCD), but a 13-34 on
>>the rear - much more useful. I don't have the teeny jumps you do, but they are not really useful
>>for normal riding.
>Well, you can get a 38, but that doesn't make alot of difference.

I am told that with a 38 there's a risk of the chainring retaining botls fouling the chain slightly.

>The other option is to get a 110bcd crankset, that'll give you more options.

Indeed; that's on my list of more long-term possibilities, along with eliminating the front
derailleur altogether and having a single 52 and a Schlumpf Mountain Drive driving a 13-28 in the
rear, which is still nominally 14 speeds but with 14 actual usable distinct gears and a *******-low
stump puller.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
Don't need the 12??? The 12 is my favorite gear! except when I have an 11-28 on my bike in which
case the 11 is my favorite gear.

I am not a racer just a recreational rider but I like to descend my local mtn road at 46-48 which I
can't do in the 12. I also like to roll along for a while at 30-35 mph on the level sometimes esp if
there is a slight downhill or tailwind.

I think I use the 12 and even 11 a lot at speeds under 30, too.

I just bought a used wheelset which came with a cassette with a low of 13. Dunno how anyone can
stand it! Maybe that's why that's the one which he sold with the wheel.

-Doug

David^2 wrote:

>anyway. But I also repeat that you do not need that 12. Finally, depending on the brand of
>derailleur, you may not be able to handle a 28.

> Is it normal? Yes. Is it good? No. What are you (or any normal non-racer) going to do with a
> 53/12, eh?
 
"Bill in Indiana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You could always get at Greenspeed Trike... I have one. You can tackle ANY hill. Any.
> www.greenspeed.com.au
>
>
"Everywhere is walking (or biking) distance if you have the time." - Steven Wright, comedian (1955-
) adapted by Peter Cao

...an obscure observation on the climbing speed of recumbent tricycles. Mark Lee
 
The Pomeranian <[email protected]> wrote:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>I don't have the teeny jumps you do, but they are not really useful for normal riding.
[But people do]
>The nice thing about 10 cogs and indexed triple fronts is that the compromises begin to vaporize.
>Shall we feast on cake?

Except that here you are tolerating large wheel dish and expensive components, which is itself
a penalty.

I'm not saying that small jumps aren't a nice thing; but when the choice is between small jumps and
a wide overall range, and small jumps will mean walking up hills (as seems to be the case for the OP
here), I know what I'll take.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
 
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>Me, I'm looking forward to the day when the entire space between the rear dropouts is filled with
>thin little cogs. I bet they're working on that right now. And when they get it in production,
>people will realize having only ten cogs (or - gasp! - nine!) is almost unrideable.

Gee, that's so 2032. The new thing this year is having sideways pelvis extensions so your legs can
span more front chainrings.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:GAE*[email protected]...
> Robin Hubert <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>I have a 52/39 on the front (why a 39? They don't come any smaller in 130mm BCD), but a 13-34 on
> >>the rear - much more useful. I don't have the teeny jumps you do, but they are not really useful
> >>for normal riding.
> >Well, you can get a 38, but that doesn't make alot of difference.
>
> I am told that with a 38 there's a risk of the chainring retaining botls fouling the chain
> slightly.
>
> >The other option is to get a 110bcd crankset, that'll give you more
options.
>
> Indeed; that's on my list of more long-term possibilities, along with eliminating the front
> derailleur altogether and having a single 52 and a Schlumpf Mountain Drive driving a 13-28 in the
> rear, which is still nominally 14 speeds but with 14 actual usable distinct gears and a
> *******-low stump puller.
> --
> David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

re: 110mm 38t chainrings: The very end of the crank spider on some cranks isn't low enough to clear
the chain on a 38. Where that's an issue, a quick pass of a file on the very tip of the spider takes
care of it. In no case will it be difficult. Most 130 cranks clear a 38 without any attention
whatsoever.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
Douglas Landau wrote:
>
> Don't need the 12??? The 12 is my favorite gear! except when I have an 11-28 on my bike in which
> case the 11 is my favorite gear.
>
> I am not a racer just a recreational rider but I like to descend my local mtn road at 46-48 which
> I can't do in the 12. I also like to roll along for a while at 30-35 mph on the level sometimes
> esp if there is a slight downhill or tailwind.
>
> I think I use the 12 and even 11 a lot at speeds under 30, too.
>
> I just bought a used wheelset which came with a cassette with a low of 13. Dunno how anyone can
> stand it! Maybe that's why that's the one which he sold with the wheel.
>
> -Doug
>
> David^2 wrote:
>
> >anyway. But I also repeat that you do not need that 12. Finally, depending on the brand of
> >derailleur, you may not be able to handle a 28.
>
> > Is it normal? Yes. Is it good? No. What are you (or any normal non-racer) going to do with a
> > 53/12, eh?

This is about the time some joker will jump in and write some garbage about how you need to "learn
to spin" along with some incomprehensible statements about "spinning out."

A 53-12 is about the same as a 48-11. My brother David, and my other brother David, don't like 12t
cogs. Needless to say, lot's of folks enjoy 117 inch gears and use them quite well. As ever, it is a
balance of constraints. If you like that 117 inch gear, by any reasonable means keep it. The guys
that don't "need" a 12 don't go very fast, and that is fine. Despite all the claims that it is only
a racer who "needs a 12t," I was *not* a racer when I first missed a 12t cog. I still had a 7sp bike
and was really happy when the 8sp came out so I didn't have to choose between the 12t or the 16t
(12-13-14-15-17-19-21 or 13-14-15-16-17-19-21 ???).
 
The Pomeranian <[email protected]> wrote:

> David Damerell wrote:
>
> > I don't have the teeny jumps you do, but they are not really useful for normal riding.
>
> By definition, they are useful if they are used and I would hardly call it *not* normal -- a lot
> of people use it and enjoy it. I used a 12-21 8sp almost exclusively for the 6 or so years I owned
> it before 9sp's came out. If riders didn't perceive and advantage to "small" step sizes, they
> wouldn't bother with tight cassettes. They recognize the tradeoffs. Once one is wont to "close
> spacing," it is hard to give up. I've done a lot of experimenting with step sizes. I find I like
> resolution at or below 9%.

Wow. This is kooky stuff to me; it carries a whiff of obsessive-compulsive behavior with it.

I mean, when you walk at varying speeds, you don't endeavor to maintain the exact same cadence by
subtly varying your stride length, do you? If you're like me and most people, you step faster to go
faster. That method is built in and need not be learned.

Therefore having to spin up a _whopping 25%_ or so before shifting to the next gear should come
pretty naturally and have negligible impact on efficiency. Witness track racers: slow or fast, they
pedal to match the pace. Doesn't seem to slow them down a bit.

> I think even casual riders might want to occasionally see "how hard they can go." In this case, I
> believe they will appreciate tight gear spacing from time to time, although the cost might not be
> worth it to them.

The cost of the psychological need for more gears has been borne by all riders. It takes the form of
fragile, comically dished rear wheels; fast-wearing narrow chains, cogs, and rings; poor chainlines;
increased complexity, cost, and weight of bikes and components; and diminished availability and
quality of simpler, more robust componentry.

I frequently use a bike with a single 47t ring and a 14-38 5sp freewheel. It works great, has a
zero-dish rear wheel, is fun and fast to ride, and completely obviates the need for a front changer
for all-purpose riding. Thanks to gear proliferation and a prevalent wannabee-racer marketing
approach, this fun and useful bike of mine is not supportable with replacement freewheels.

Sporting one-tooth increments on the cassette of a recreational bike is like running race car
transmission ratios on your daily driver. It hurts versatility and rideability by truncating useful
low gears, while offering in return a "benefit" of no demonstrable worth.

I believe that serious market demand for more and more speeds would not have materialized had most
enthusiast-level bikes not been crippled with too-tight gear ranges all along. 25% intervals across
seven gears would be about 3.8:1 overall, a huge range. The industry does not provide such a thing,
of course. Thanks.

Chalo Colina now with onboard variable speed control
 
THANKS Robin!!!

I'm glad you said that. Although I should have already figured it out, I had not. As a latecomer to
the sport who does not want to concede anything to age, I have always poo-poo-ed triples. Now I know
what they are for! I had been thinking that my ideal gearing would be 11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25, or
similar, but was not looking forward to doing without the 12 and 14.

Doug

"Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Those teeny jumps are nice. For the heck of it, I put a 13-21 7sp cassette on my tourer/commuter,
> with 48/36/26 triple. I like it *alot* better than a wide-ranging cassette on the back. I think if
> you must have wide range gearing, go wide in front and narrow in back. It turns out you rarely
> need those low, low gears, so I'd rather have to deal with it occasionally up front.
 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:57:28 -0500, Mark Lee wrote:

> "Bill in Indiana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> You could always get at Greenspeed Trike... I have one. You can tackle ANY hill. Any.
>> www.greenspeed.com.au
>>
>>
> "Everywhere is walking (or biking) distance if you have the time." - Steven Wright, comedian
> (1955- ) adapted by Peter Cao
>
> ...an obscure observation on the climbing speed of recumbent tricycles.

and, presumably a recognition of the fact that you can't fall over on one no matter how
slowly you go.
 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:03:04 -0500, Douglas Landau wrote:

> Don't need the 12??? The 12 is my favorite gear! except when I have an 11-28 on my bike in which
> case the 11 is my favorite gear.
>
> I am not a racer just a recreational rider but I like to descend my local mtn road at 46-48 which
> I can't do in the 12. I also like to roll along for a while at 30-35 mph on the level sometimes
> esp if there is a slight downhill or tailwind.
>
> I think I use the 12 and even 11 a lot at speeds under 30, too.
>
> I just bought a used wheelset which came with a cassette with a low of
> 13. Dunno how anyone can stand it! Maybe that's why that's the one which he sold with the wheel.

My top gear is a 48/13, 100 inches. (Incidentally, 100" used to be the top gear for pro racers not
so very long ago: 52x14, back in the ten speed days.) I can apply useful power at 32 mph. Any faster
than that on a downhill run, I can easily just tuck and coast. I've had higher gears in the past,
but I find that on a single they're not useful. (On a tandem, I like a 54/12.) I'd much rather have
a high gear I can actually use on level ground, tighter spacing at the top end, and low low gears.

On the other hand, with a 17" wheel, a 9T can come in very handy!
 
Yeah, I remember those choices. That 16t was a hard thing not to have...

Mike "The Pomeranian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Douglas Landau wrote:
> >
> > Don't need the 12??? The 12 is my favorite gear! except when I have an 11-28 on my bike in which
> > case the 11 is my favorite gear.
> >
> > I am not a racer just a recreational rider but I like to descend my local mtn road at 46-48
> > which I can't do in the 12. I also like to roll along for a while at 30-35 mph on the level
> > sometimes esp if there is a slight downhill or tailwind.
> >
> > I think I use the 12 and even 11 a lot at speeds under 30, too.
> >
> > I just bought a used wheelset which came with a cassette with a low of
13.
> > Dunno how anyone can stand it! Maybe that's why that's the one which he sold with the wheel.
> >
> > -Doug
> >
> > David^2 wrote:
> >
> > >anyway. But I also repeat that you do not need that 12. Finally, depending on the brand of
> > >derailleur, you may not be able to handle a
14.
> >
> > > Is it normal? Yes. Is it good? No. What are you (or any normal
non-racer)
> > > going to do with a 53/12, eh?
>
>
> This is about the time some joker will jump in and write some garbage about how you need to "learn
> to spin" along with some incomprehensible statements about "spinning out."
>
> A 53-12 is about the same as a 48-11. My brother David, and my other brother David, don't like 12t
> cogs. Needless to say, lot's of folks enjoy 117 inch gears and use them quite well. As ever, it is
> a balance of constraints. If you like that 117 inch gear, by any reasonable means keep it. The
> guys that don't "need" a 12 don't go very fast, and that is fine. Despite all the claims that it
> is only a racer who "needs a 12t," I was *not* a racer when I first missed a 12t cog. I still had
> a 7sp bike and was really happy when the 8sp came out so I didn't have to choose between the 12t
> or the 16t (12-13-14-15-17-19-21 or 13-14-15-16-17-19-21 ???).
 
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